Time to Split Dublin

Started by Dont Matter, September 22, 2013, 05:28:16 PM

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Is it right that Dublin got 7 million to implement a plan to dominate the GAA World?

Yes
42 (29%)
No
103 (71%)

Total Members Voted: 145

manfromdelmonte

Quote from: thewobbler on July 22, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
If I have only one hope for this GAA season, it's that either of the sparsely-populated, emigration-ravished land masses that are Donegal and Mayo, beat Dublin in Croke Park. I don't care how they do they do, just that they do so.

Maybe after that happens, all of the hype swillers on this thread and around Ireland, might take a step back and realise that pots of cash, extensive training regimes, professional coaches and backroom staff, development structures, soft jobs, and big game experience do not win All-Irelands. Players win All-Irelands. Dublin have a natural advantage there at present, but every player can and will have off days.
maybe.
but if you have 30 players trained to a level higher than any other county, with a targetted program to peak for each game it makes it unbalanced. then even if say 6/7 of them have a bad day they have reinforcements to change the game.

Dont Matter

Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 22, 2014, 08:39:16 AM
Lads lets be serious here the Cluxtons, Flynns, Connolly, Brogans of this world are players who come along every 20 years. Dublin are having their purple patch. I'd be shocked if the players who replace these lads in 5-6 years are of their standard, despite the recent underage success.

Tyrone won 5 All Ireland minor titles (I think) in the 2000s and we've seen those players arent of the 97/98 standard.

You do realise that those players you listed were around when Dubl$n were getting destroyed by the better teams? It's the long list of talent that have come through the multi million euro system that changed Dubl$n from also rans into the top team. That's a system that was and is funded by all our money, even people who have nothing to do with the GAA have funded it. The money is still being pumped in, hence more and more talent keeps emerging.
Look, it's simple. People are getting paid huge money to plan and organise the underage system and then they have huge money to pay the games development officers, coaches etc to implement it. On top of that there's huge money available to prepare senior teams. This is before you talk about the facilities available, the population advantage they already have, the playing every game at home and so forth. How is it even possible not to be successful with this in place? The money guarantees success especially when you consider that no other county comes close to this level of resources. It's basically one county operating on a professional level versus every other county operating on an amateur basis.
In an amateur sport this is cheating, it's financial cheating and it can't go on.
'Dublin is not a national problem, it's a national opportunity.'
Peter Quinn

Lar Naparka

Quote from: INDIANA on July 22, 2014, 10:19:00 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 22, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
If I have only one hope for this GAA season, it's that either of the sparsely-populated, emigration-ravished land masses that are Donegal and Mayo, beat Dublin in Croke Park. I don't care how they do they do, just that they do so.

Maybe after that happens, all of the hype swillers on this thread and around Ireland, might take a step back and realise that pots of cash, extensive training regimes, professional coaches and backroom staff, development structures, soft jobs, and big game experience do not win All-Irelands. Players win All-Irelands. Dublin have a natural advantage there at present, but every player can and will have off days.

They do but they don't develop themselves
I know Indy, but other counties face problems that doesn't enter the picture where Dublin is concerned. Foremost amongst them is the issue of travel time and expenses.

The Leitrim championship panel used to train in Trim. (At least they did for a period during the mid-noughties.)
Around that time Dublin-based players of Mayo and Kerry trained in the Phoenix Park under the supervision of Mícheál O'Muircheartaigh. Dunno what other counties do but logistics are a problem for all counties who have players living and working a distance from their home patch.
Gilroy and maybe Gavin also could arrange early morning training sessions which just couldn't be done elsewhere.
I don't want to be bitten by a rabid Dub supported but I think the results of the study carried out during Peter Quinn's presidency should be looked at again.
One of the chief recommendations was that Dublin be divided in two and, predictably, that met with howls of protest fro the Molly Malones. The findings were promptly shelved which was really a pity as there were other issues investigated.
The falling away of  playing members as they got older was a countrywide worry and this was the main remit of the committee appointed. Dublin was found to have the biggest drop out rate of the lot. Dublin had the largest number of players. Cork had more clubs than any other county, Dublin included, but no one else had the superclubs  to be found in Dublin.
The committee reported that each of 5 named clubs fielded more underage players at weekends than any of five named counties. At this remove in time, I can't honsestly name all five ib eithe rcase but I know Cavan, Fermanagh and Leitrim were three of the counties and 'boden, Thomas Davis, Brigid's and Vincents were four of the five clubs in question.
So Dublin was the region with the fastest growing population numbers and at the same time, the highest drop out rate. No wonder GAA heads were worried.
One of the recommendations was that Dublin should be split in two but unfortunately none of the committee's findings   were implemented.
The imbalance is growing all the while.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Franko

The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Syferus

Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:07:02 PM
The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Lol, Derry complaining about 30k.

Leitrim are sponsored by a three star hotel.

thewobbler

Quote from: Dont Matter on July 22, 2014, 11:13:14 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 22, 2014, 08:39:16 AM
Lads lets be serious here the Cluxtons, Flynns, Connolly, Brogans of this world are players who come along every 20 years. Dublin are having their purple patch. I'd be shocked if the players who replace these lads in 5-6 years are of their standard, despite the recent underage success.

Tyrone won 5 All Ireland minor titles (I think) in the 2000s and we've seen those players arent of the 97/98 standard.

You do realise that those players you listed were around when Dubl$n were getting destroyed by the better teams? It's the long list of talent that have come through the multi million euro system that changed Dubl$n from also rans into the top team. That's a system that was and is funded by all our money, even people who have nothing to do with the GAA have funded it. The money is still being pumped in, hence more and more talent keeps emerging.
Look, it's simple. People are getting paid huge money to plan and organise the underage system and then they have huge money to pay the games development officers, coaches etc to implement it. On top of that there's huge money available to prepare senior teams. This is before you talk about the facilities available, the population advantage they already have, the playing every game at home and so forth. How is it even possible not to be successful with this in place? The money guarantees success especially when you consider that no other county comes close to this level of resources. It's basically one county operating on a professional level versus every other county operating on an amateur basis.
In an amateur sport this is cheating, it's financial cheating and it can't go on.

They've won 2 All-Irelands in 3 years. In the past 20 years, Kerry won 4 in 6 years (with 2 final appearances in between), Tyrone won 3 in 6, Meath won 2 in 4, Galway won 2 in 4 with 1 appearance in between.

In 2009, everyone reckoned Kerry were on the cusp of greatness.
In 2010, the consensus was that Cork could dominate for years with burgeoning young talent coming into the best panel ever.
In 2012, it was clear to the entire world that nobody would ever break down Donegal's system.

All these big statements about Dublin dominance. Can't you at least wait until they've actually dominated the game for an extended period of time before making them?

Franko

Quote from: Syferus on July 22, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:07:02 PM
The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Lol, Derry complaining about 30k.

Leitrim are sponsored by a three star hotel.

Hence my point.

screenexile

Quote from: Syferus on July 22, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:07:02 PM
The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Lol, Derry complaining about 30k.

Leitrim are sponsored by a three star hotel.

If only wee could join the top table like the big lads and get our own bus we'd be flying!!!

INDIANA

Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:07:02 PM
The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Sorry that's bullshit. I've no issue with Dublin getting the lowest grants from hq of any county .

But pooling of sponsorship is where I draw the line. That sponsorship covers the entire spectrum of Dublin teams and isn't ring fenced for the seniors.

We are entitled to get whatever our brand dictates. Donegal spent 1.5m to win the all Ireland in 2012. The idea that money is Dublin only is complete clap trap.

Donegal have had more training camps in fancy complexes then the Germans did in the WC. So they obviously have private investors that they don't tell anyone about.?

Syferus

#324
Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:18:06 PM
Quote from: Syferus on July 22, 2014, 12:16:44 PM
Quote from: Franko on July 22, 2014, 12:07:02 PM
The issue of kit sponsorship money also has to be looked at.  Dublin's deal with AIG was something like £700k.  Comparison to Derry's 30k (which is the only one I know - and I'd imagine would be a good average figure) is ridiculous.  The GAA needs to look at centrally pooling this kit sposorship money and redistributing accordingly.

Lol, Derry complaining about 30k.

Leitrim are sponsored by a three star hotel.

Hence my point.

Aye, but we should look at Dublin's ability to attract sponsors as an advantage. Cutting up a good chunk that money up in a structured manner and using it to fund county teams without that pulling power would go a long way towards making a more competitive IC scene. In the end that would only benefit everyone, Dublin included.

Bingo

How often do Dublin players line out/train with their clubs? Compared to other counties.

I know in Monaghan the players would be playing league games and attending the odd club training.

How does it work in other counties. I've heard it said that they mightn't see the clubs until championship but no idea how true this is.

INDIANA

Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 22, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
Quote from: INDIANA on July 22, 2014, 10:19:00 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 22, 2014, 09:53:20 AM
If I have only one hope for this GAA season, it's that either of the sparsely-populated, emigration-ravished land masses that are Donegal and Mayo, beat Dublin in Croke Park. I don't care how they do they do, just that they do so.

Maybe after that happens, all of the hype swillers on this thread and around Ireland, might take a step back and realise that pots of cash, extensive training regimes, professional coaches and backroom staff, development structures, soft jobs, and big game experience do not win All-Irelands. Players win All-Irelands. Dublin have a natural advantage there at present, but every player can and will have off days.

They do but they don't develop themselves
I know Indy, but other counties face problems that doesn't enter the picture where Dublin is concerned. Foremost amongst them is the issue of travel time and expenses.

The Leitrim championship panel used to train in Trim. (At least they did for a period during the mid-noughties.)
Around that time Dublin-based players of Mayo and Kerry trained in the Phoenix Park under the supervision of Mícheál O'Muircheartaigh. Dunno what other counties do but logistics are a problem for all counties who have players living and working a distance from their home patch.
Gilroy and maybe Gavin also could arrange early morning training sessions which just couldn't be done elsewhere.
I don't want to be bitten by a rabid Dub supported but I think the results of the study carried out during Peter Quinn's presidency should be looked at again.
One of the chief recommendations was that Dublin be divided in two and, predictably, that met with howls of protest fro the Molly Malones. The findings were promptly shelved which was really a pity as there were other issues investigated.
The falling away of  playing members as they got older was a countrywide worry and this was the main remit of the committee appointed. Dublin was found to have the biggest drop out rate of the lot. Dublin had the largest number of players. Cork had more clubs than any other county, Dublin included, but no one else had the superclubs  to be found in Dublin.
The committee reported that each of 5 named clubs fielded more underage players at weekends than any of five named counties. At this remove in time, I can't honsestly name all five ib eithe rcase but I know Cavan, Fermanagh and Leitrim were three of the counties and 'boden, Thomas Davis, Brigid's and Vincents were four of the five clubs in question.
So Dublin was the region with the fastest growing population numbers and at the same time, the highest drop out rate. No wonder GAA heads were worried.
One of the recommendations was that Dublin should be split in two but unfortunately none of the committee's findings   were implemented.
The imbalance is growing all the while.

First thing Dublin team don't train at 6am anymore. They also don't train twice a day . That's long gone.

I accept what you're saying but try getting across Dublin City in rush hour for training. We have no training centre and are effectively nomads. Some lads would easily spend an hour trying to get to training depending on where they live.

St Vincent's have four adult football teams and we are struggling to maintain that. Compared to country clubs that might be a lot but we are barely top 15 in numbers in Dublin. We are tiny compared to Crokes or Boden.

Outside brigids super clubs don't exist on the northside. It's the southside where the gaa explosion has taken place. A lot of parents in rugby playing areas don't want their kids pursuing rugby anymore. So now Dalkey , Kilmacud etc has seen a GAA explosion in recent years. So whoever was on that committee did shag all research.

Outside players. Most of the top clubs in Dublin have a third if their team from the country. Or if your parnells there is no point in Gavin watching them play.

A lot if scaremongering out there and a lot of it based on pure innuendo and misinformation peddled by the Kerry brigade who run the Independent Media Group.

Dont Matter

Quote from: thewobbler on July 22, 2014, 12:17:53 PM
They've won 2 All-Irelands in 3 years. In the past 20 years, Kerry won 4 in 6 years (with 2 final appearances in between), Tyrone won 3 in 6, Meath won 2 in 4, Galway won 2 in 4 with 1 appearance in between.

In 2009, everyone reckoned Kerry were on the cusp of greatness.
In 2010, the consensus was that Cork could dominate for years with burgeoning young talent coming into the best panel ever.
In 2012, it was clear to the entire world that nobody would ever break down Donegal's system.

All these big statements about Dublin dominance. Can't you at least wait until they've actually dominated the game for an extended period of time before making them?

Did any of those other counties have millions upon millions of euro available for underage structures and the preparation of senior teams? The situation is wrong whether Dubl$n win 10 All Irelands in a row or none. It's not just 2 All Irelands either, there's been a huge number of underage titles plus look what's happened with their hurling team. The Leinster football championship is dead and it's hard to see how any team can compete in the All Ireland series. With the sponsorship money Dubl$n have garnered through their increased success that was funded by all of us the whole thing is long out of control.
'Dublin is not a national problem, it's a national opportunity.'
Peter Quinn

INDIANA

Quote from: Bingo on July 22, 2014, 12:21:57 PM
How often do Dublin players line out/train with their clubs? Compared to other counties.

I know in Monaghan the players would be playing league games and attending the odd club training.

How does it work in other counties. I've heard it said that they mightn't see the clubs until championship but no idea how true this is.

Top 15 would play 3-4 league matches a year. Maybe.

15-26 - maybe 8-9

26-35 - probably 12 out of 15.

Week of a club championship match will train with club. Until Dublin are out you will never see them for training purposes outside that week.

It's a serious sore point in the county for clubs. Gavin has been more forthcoming with players then previous managements but still not good enough in my view.

Bingo

Quote from: INDIANA on July 22, 2014, 12:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bingo on July 22, 2014, 12:21:57 PM
How often do Dublin players line out/train with their clubs? Compared to other counties.

I know in Monaghan the players would be playing league games and attending the odd club training.

How does it work in other counties. I've heard it said that they mightn't see the clubs until championship but no idea how true this is.

Top 15 would play 3-4 league matches a year. Maybe.

15-26 - maybe 8-9

26-35 - probably 12 out of 15.

Week of a club championship match will train with club. Until Dublin are out you will never see them for training purposes outside that week.

It's a serious sore point in the county for clubs. Gavin has been more forthcoming with players then previous managements but still not good enough in my view.

Its a problem in all counties I'd imagine. Success brings its own problems (like above) while lack of success will also bring different problems with players not committing to county panels or trying to be as committed to clubs.

I'd love to know how Gavin identifies the 15-26 players given his squad!  ;D