Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

Started by cjx, July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM

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sligoman2

Lots of good arguments from all sides.  For me the modern game has taken away the spontaneity and has replaced it with systems and pre-planning.  Nobody is arguing that the strength and fitness levels are at an all time high but that fitness combined with a fear of losing and sports science has removed the spontaneity.  Yes there are some good games, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.  When you have 15 players inside the 45 meter line its hard to break down thus the back passing Etc.

I would advocate that each team keeps 4 outfield players in their opponents half at all time matched by 4 from the other team and would also make passing the ball back to your own half a foul.  Managers won't advocate this but I think it needs to be done before Gaelic football dies...
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not too sure.

trileacman

Quote from: sligoman2 on July 17, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
Lots of good arguments from all sides.  For me the modern game has taken away the spontaneity and has replaced it with systems and pre-planning.  Nobody is arguing that the strength and fitness levels are at an all time high but that fitness combined with a fear of losing and sports science has removed the spontaneity.  Yes there are some good games, but unfortunately they are the exception rather than the rule.  When you have 15 players inside the 45 meter line its hard to break down thus the back passing Etc.

I would advocate that each team keeps 4 outfield players in their opponents half at all time matched by 4 from the other team and would also make passing the ball back to your own half a foul.  Managers won't advocate this but I think it needs to be done before Gaelic football dies...

Any 4 players at anytime? A possible suggestion but the ref couldn't be left in charge of counting who's doing what and where.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
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Rossfan

And if they don't adhere to this rule where would the free be from?
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

mrdeeds

Quote from: Rossfan on July 18, 2018, 01:14:46 AM
And if they don't adhere to this rule where would the free be from?

Does the ref in club football keep counting to make sure there is 4 in the half and ref the other half of the pitch as well?

trailer

Quote from: APM on July 17, 2018, 07:41:25 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 05:15:17 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:57:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 17, 2018, 04:50:09 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:20:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on July 17, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 03:16:44 PM
Did any of fellas play football before kicking freed from the hand came in?

The game was similarly bucked at that time.

That was a rule change that was easy to ref, easy to implement and didn't disrupt the flow of the game. It wasn't designed to counteract any tactical innovation bought to the game and just made common sense. However, it did also have the side effect of nearly killing the art of free kicking off the ground. All rules have side effects and the idea of bringing in a rule or rules because some team have used a particular tactic just doesn't sit well with me. Count down clocks for tackling, no back passes, no going back into your own half etc are all well intended but are all riddled with unintended consequences.

Lol. Seriously?

The consequence of kicking frees from hand is the game we have now. It allowed the team who were fouled to easily retain possession and therefore was the pivotal reason for the change from a territorial game a la hurling into the possession game we now know.

It took a few years to bed in, a few more years to become a defined tactic, and a few more years again to be the ultimate game killer... aided in no small way by the allowance for quick restarts. Which ironically were meant to speed the game up.


In short, football we now know is directly related to what happened in 1990. What Dublin did at the weekend would never have been possible with frees from the ground.

——

By the way, I've no interest in going back in time. I prefer possession over territory and would never advocate a reversal.

Why I brought up 1990 is simple.

The game was a f**king mess. It was routinely owned by one county, and when they met anyone apart from a couple of teams, they slapped them into the ground. Attendances were appalling and interest was low. It was a non spectacle.

A rule change led to 20 years of unpredictable championships and unbelievable crowds.

That rule change created the game half of this thread profess to adore unflinchingly. Well you wouldn't f**king have it lads if people who give a f**k hadn't changed the rules.

So if you take a free from the ground it is impossible to kick it to one of your team mates but out of your hand it isn't? Is that what you're saying?

Are you 3 years old?

Show me where "impossible" comes into this. The key to possession football is in reducing the chance of dispossession.

You're a f**king childish ****

Calm down big lad. You're getting way too wound up about this. Does some Dublin fella out the front of your house keep taking your ball off you?

He's absolutely correct to be frustrated at your nonsense and smugness.  I can't understand why people cannot recognize a major problem when they see it.

There's a cycle involved that leads to the strong teams getting stronger and harder to beat! It goes like this - weaker county innovates (new training methods like Down in 1960s, S&C, development squads, blanket defence in 2000s, possession football etc), they achieve success, stronger counties learn lessons, replicate and reassert dominance. 

When the stronger counties learn these lessons from innovating smaller / traditionally weaker counties who achieve temporary success, with their greater array of talent and deeper pockets the gap between the weak and strong gets progressively wider and it becomes harder to bridge the gap. 

However, you don't change the rules because some counties can't compete - you change the rules because the game is f***king unwatchable. So it's not about leveling the playing field, its about having games that people will watch.  Unless you have your head stuck in the sand, you would have to acknowledge, that in the last 10 years, attendances have been falling.

If anyone should be frustrated it's me. The thread is about stopping 'puke keep-ball' People don't like it when Dublin keep the ball. However they are then going off on a completely different tangent about blanket defences, Mickey Harte and Jim McGuinness.
What is the exact issue? If the issue is Dublin keeping the ball, well you can't simply make a new rule because one team is better than another. That is ludicrous. And some of the 'ideas' are mental. 3 players in one half, no crossing the half way line, limiting hand passes. These are suggestions that anyone who has played the game to any sort of level know that A) the referee will be unable to enforce B) will ruin the game and turn it into something like a bastardised version of Rugby (catch & kick)

I already made a number of suggestions that would improve the game as a spectacle without a fundamental and radical rule change. I.e. Bring it back to 13 or 14 a side, play 80 mins and limit subs to 3-4. Less players, more space. Tired players, more space. But crucially this doesn't punish a team for being better than the rest.
I am not against change, but something as stupid as punishing a team for holding possession needs called out.


seafoid

Quote from: cjx on July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM
Keep Ball as Dublin played it yesterday (14/7) will put so many off Gaelic Football and is most cynical
Needs a rule change to combat/reduce it.

What about a free to other side (from centre line) if team passes ball into own half twice during a period of continuous possession.

That would force the team playing keep ball to think more and confusion might break it up
or
would force a team to stay forward
or
encourage the team without the ball to press up.

Any thoughts or better ideas?
Ban all handpassing.
The game  has mutated into something it shouldn't be
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

Quote from: sid waddell on July 17, 2018, 04:44:29 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 17, 2018, 04:30:45 PM
Hurling is no more a possession based game than a penalty shoot out in soccer.

Do try and bother to at least have a look in at even one hurling match if you're going to comment on it, because you clearly know next to nothing about the game.
Hurling is different because players can score from further out. If you can get long range scorers and fellas who can secure dirty ball you don't need to play keep ball for 3 minutes. Anyway it would be unmanly.

I'd love to see the stats on average length of the Dubs passes compared to 20 years ago.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Farrandeelin

Happened to catch the 2nd half of an u16 championship match last night. The victors (opposition) did the same thing as the Dubs, they even went from their attacking 45 back to their gk. Whatever about fans, I'm sure our young lads were fairly pissed off about it.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

sid waddell

Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 08:35:04 AM


I already made a number of suggestions that would improve the game as a spectacle without a fundamental and radical rule change. I.e. Bring it back to 13 or 14 a side, play 80 mins and limit subs to 3-4. Less players, more space. Tired players, more space. But crucially this doesn't punish a team for being better than the rest.
I am not against change, but something as stupid as punishing a team for holding possession needs called out.
If people are actually serious about improving competition, the obvious thing to do is to reduce the number of substitutions back to three.

Mayo might well have a couple of All-Irelands this decade had this rule been in place.

With six substitutions, it plays completely into the hands of Dublin.

70 minutes and 15-a-side is just fine.

seafoid

A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

sid waddell

Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.

Pretty much every field sport, so.

seafoid

Quote from: sid waddell on July 18, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.

Pretty much every field sport, so.

The rules have to change if the sport isn't doing what it says on the tin. I think rossfan's point about GF mutating from catch and kick to pure possession is a very good one. The rules are out of date.   
Maybe a fan survey would be in order.

Other field sports have less of a Japanese knotweed problem imo.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

trailer

#177
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.

"Fogra, anois, there will be no shot clock in this match as John can't find the remote. Please stand for amhran na bhfiann"

seafoid

Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

trailer

Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:45:28 AM
Quote from: trailer on July 18, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 18, 2018, 11:29:44 AM
A sport where space is shut down systematically is pointless for the spectator.
It may be logical for the manager but the attendances will fall.
Mike Gibson and O'Driscoll and the great soccer players could/can find space where others can't see it but in gaelic football they'd be handpassing indefinitely.
Maybe a scoring clock would work. Something has to change.

There's barely working scoreboards in 99% of GAA grounds. This would be chaos. Maybe that's what spectators want? Complete chaos over a shot clock.
Start off in Porky Crokey
The current system is the veneration of crap

So a different rule for football in Croke Park, one particular pitch in Ireland. Where Dublin have home advantage 70% odd of the time and now a shot clock advantage, as they'll be used to it. I thought we were trying to stop the Dubs? Imagine saying the "Mark" only counts in Croke Park and not the rest of Ireland. Please, please, please, for the love of God, think things through before you post.