Tyrone County Football and Hurling

Started by Fear ón Srath Bán, April 01, 2007, 05:58:31 PM

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In hiding

#2760
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 12, 2017, 05:53:03 PM
The football we're playing at the minute is suited to the players we have.

The team as a whole lacks physicality when you compare it to Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. Every serious team will crowd their defence with numbers. The two factors lacking with Tyrone at the minute is:
a) a reliable free taker
b) a top rate ball winner in the full forward line.

The likes of McCurry, Brennan, Bradley and O'Neill are all lovely footballers but I don't they're particularly great ball winners, especially in the air.

It's about getting the balance right, McAliskey is a big loss as he was a guy who could combine the inside and roving roll quite well, he had a great engine on him, good aggression and some class too. Bradley is a classy player but I'm unsure how effective a guy of his stature can be in the modern game when played in the full forward line. I think the reason he has been used out the pitch so far is that it allows him to get on the ball. Maybe he'll be given his chance this year in there to see how he gets on but I would have doubts, he has to be one of the smallest players playing county football at the minute.
Are cormac costello or paul mannion big physical men ?
If mark Bradley was playing for dublin he wouldn't be spending most of his time in the half back line

lenny

Quote from: longballin on January 12, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: redhandofgod on January 12, 2017, 08:25:06 AM
Mickey Harte deserves serious credit for those 3 all-Irelands, we wouldn't have won an all-Ireland without him, I do fear now that we wont win another AI with him in charge!!!

He was afforded the opportunity to work with the same group of players he guided from minor and U21, at some point the successful U21 management have to be given that opportunity.

He also was given a royal flush hand with Dooher, Lawn, Canavan, Cavlan to add to those underage teams. So not by any stretch all down to Harte but he did do well.

Totally agree. Quite often managers get far too much credit especially in gaa circles. The bottom line is tyrone won the 3 all ireland titles with a lot of the same core squad of players. These players deserve most of the credit. Since the majority of those players have retired Harte has gone 9 seasons without getting close to repeating the success. He has had lots of talent to pick from including all ireland winners at underage level and a lot of those players have been managed badly. The way I see it he hasn't been able to adapt to a new group of players.

TopOfTheRight13

Quote from: In hiding on January 12, 2017, 06:29:09 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 12, 2017, 05:53:03 PM
The football we're playing at the minute is suited to the players we have.

The team as a whole lacks physicality when you compare it to Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. Every serious team will crowd their defence with numbers. The two factors lacking with Tyrone at the minute is:
a) a reliable free taker
b) a top rate ball winner in the full forward line.

The likes of McCurry, Brennan, Bradley and O'Neill are all lovely footballers but I don't they're particularly great ball winners, especially in the air.

It's about getting the balance right, McAliskey is a big loss as he was a guy who could combine the inside and roving roll quite well, he had a great engine on him, good aggression and some class too. Bradley is a classy player but I'm unsure how effective a guy of his stature can be in the modern game when played in the full forward line. I think the reason he has been used out the pitch so far is that it allows him to get on the ball. Maybe he'll be given his chance this year in there to see how he gets on but I would have doubts, he has to be one of the smallest players playing county football at the minute.
Are cormac costello or paul mannion big physical men ?
If mark Bradley was playing for dublin he wouldn't be spending most of his time in the half back line

Mark Bradley would be no use on the 55 line defending, too small and opposition teams would target his alley of defence its the same as McCurry. Was it not McCurrys man scored 1-2 on Sunday off him. Bradley would be better served as an inside forward because he can shift and can win his own ball..on that note Bradley is twice the player as McCurry because he can win his own ball McCurry wants it too easy can't win the dirty ball wants to hit free kicks and 45s and even at that he has went off the boil.. Its all too easy hitting 45s in your own pitch with no one around and uploading it to youtube do it in Croke Park with 80,000 eyes on you and he cracks under pressure.

BennyHarp

Quote from: lenny on January 12, 2017, 06:47:47 PM
Quote from: longballin on January 12, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: redhandofgod on January 12, 2017, 08:25:06 AM
Mickey Harte deserves serious credit for those 3 all-Irelands, we wouldn't have won an all-Ireland without him, I do fear now that we wont win another AI with him in charge!!!

He was afforded the opportunity to work with the same group of players he guided from minor and U21, at some point the successful U21 management have to be given that opportunity.

He also was given a royal flush hand with Dooher, Lawn, Canavan, Cavlan to add to those underage teams. So not by any stretch all down to Harte but he did do well.

Totally agree. Quite often managers get far too much credit especially in gaa circles. The bottom line is tyrone won the 3 all ireland titles with a lot of the same core squad of players. These players deserve most of the credit. Since the majority of those players have retired Harte has gone 9 seasons without getting close to repeating the success. He has had lots of talent to pick from including all ireland winners at underage level and a lot of those players have been managed badly. The way I see it he hasn't been able to adapt to a new group of players.

Harte also developed those lads through from minor. It's far too easy to say that we just had good players. We've had plenty of outstanding players before and won no All Irelands. Jeez we have some amount of whingers in this county. If you think Tyrone only won the AI because of the players then it's hardly surprising they haven't won another now that those players have retired. So Mickey gets no credit for winning the AI but takes all the blame when we don't. Looking at the other counties around us, I think we have done relatively well to still at least be competitive during the transition from that great team.
That was never a square ball!!

lenny

Quote from: BennyHarp on January 12, 2017, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 12, 2017, 06:47:47 PM
Quote from: longballin on January 12, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: redhandofgod on January 12, 2017, 08:25:06 AM
Mickey Harte deserves serious credit for those 3 all-Irelands, we wouldn't have won an all-Ireland without him, I do fear now that we wont win another AI with him in charge!!!

He was afforded the opportunity to work with the same group of players he guided from minor and U21, at some point the successful U21 management have to be given that opportunity.

He also was given a royal flush hand with Dooher, Lawn, Canavan, Cavlan to add to those underage teams. So not by any stretch all down to Harte but he did do well.

Totally agree. Quite often managers get far too much credit especially in gaa circles. The bottom line is tyrone won the 3 all ireland titles with a lot of the same core squad of players. These players deserve most of the credit. Since the majority of those players have retired Harte has gone 9 seasons without getting close to repeating the success. He has had lots of talent to pick from including all ireland winners at underage level and a lot of those players have been managed badly. The way I see it he hasn't been able to adapt to a new group of players.

Harte also developed those lads through from minor. It's far too easy to say that we just had good players. We've had plenty of outstanding players before and won no All Irelands. Jeez we have some amount of whingers in this county. If you think Tyrone only won the AI because of the players then it's hardly surprising they haven't won another now that those players have retired. So Mickey gets no credit for winning the AI but takes all the blame when we don't. Looking at the other counties around us, I think we have done relatively well to still at least be competitive during the transition from that great team.

There is no doubt he did a good job with those players. My point is it was mainly the same core group of players he had at minor, u21 and senior. They were a great crop of players though and he trusted them completely. I feel though he kept a few of them on too long because he couldn't bring himself to trust the next generation of players. That's what I mean when I said he had managed badly the transition of several players who could've been really good. He has still kept tyrone competitive but that isn't really a big achievement because tyrone have had a lot of underage success and have plenty of talent to pick from.

southtyronegael

if i hear the word transition again il blow a fuckin fuse.

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: In hiding on January 12, 2017, 06:29:09 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 12, 2017, 05:53:03 PM
The football we're playing at the minute is suited to the players we have.

The team as a whole lacks physicality when you compare it to Dublin, Mayo and Kerry. Every serious team will crowd their defence with numbers. The two factors lacking with Tyrone at the minute is:
a) a reliable free taker
b) a top rate ball winner in the full forward line.

The likes of McCurry, Brennan, Bradley and O'Neill are all lovely footballers but I don't they're particularly great ball winners, especially in the air.

It's about getting the balance right, McAliskey is a big loss as he was a guy who could combine the inside and roving roll quite well, he had a great engine on him, good aggression and some class too. Bradley is a classy player but I'm unsure how effective a guy of his stature can be in the modern game when played in the full forward line. I think the reason he has been used out the pitch so far is that it allows him to get on the ball. Maybe he'll be given his chance this year in there to see how he gets on but I would have doubts, he has to be one of the smallest players playing county football at the minute.
Are cormac costello or paul mannion big physical men ?
If mark Bradley was playing for dublin he wouldn't be spending most of his time in the half back line

Mannion is over 6ft.
Costello is not small either.

Bradley is about 5ft6 or 5ft7. I can't think of a shorter county player about at the minute, he's a fantastic player but I'd have doubts whether he can be effective inside in the modern game. One way to find out though.

southtyronegael

if most of the top counties have taller athletic players now would they not find it difficult to mark a smaller , nimble forward like bradley? if the right kind of low ball was delivered would it not in theory give the small forward and advantage?

BennyHarp

Quote from: southtyronegael on January 12, 2017, 10:37:22 PM
if i hear the word transition again il blow a fuckin fuse.

To be fair, you seem to blow the oul fuse fairly quickly anyway!
That was never a square ball!!

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: southtyronegael on January 12, 2017, 10:57:48 PM
if most of the top counties have taller athletic players now would they not find it difficult to mark a smaller , nimble forward like bradley? if the right kind of low ball was delivered would it not in theory give the small forward and advantage?

How do you deliver low ball through a wall of men encamped in front of the full back line?

That is why modern football has rendered the speedy, skilful corner forwards near obsolete. The premier inside forwards in the game today are the guys like McManus, Geaney, McBrearty etc.

Even Kerry had the 2014 POTY hovering around his own half back line for a lot of the AI final. You look at the damage O'Donoghue can do when teams play open football against him, he took Tyrone for 3 goals in a league game down in Killarney. He destroyed Dublin in the 2013 AI final and did the same in the 2014 AI semis against Mayo, so what did teams do with them, they dropped bodies back, they stopped the supply of ball into him and he has failed to make an impact since.

Football has changed, we can't play the type of ball Bradley, Brennan et all would thrive upon because the opposition are not going to allow these lads the time and space they crave. You have two options with mass defence these days, that's keep ball and wait patiently for the opening to come or to play the ball over the top. If you're going playing it over the top you need forwards who can win it anyway and can also play. We have the forwards who can play but we don't have those aggressive, rangy guys like McManus, McBrearty, Donaghy, Murphy, Andrews, Mannion, Geaney who can win it anyway and who can take their chances.

southtyronegael

you mean guys like sean cavanagh, mattie donnelly, kyle coney, conan grugan?

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: southtyronegael on January 12, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
you mean guys like sean cavanagh, mattie donnelly, kyle coney, conan grugan?

No I don't.

Coney and Grugan couldn't cut it. Donnelly and Cavanagh do their best work further out the field.

In hiding

Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 12, 2017, 11:48:09 PM
Quote from: southtyronegael on January 12, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
you mean guys like sean cavanagh, mattie donnelly, kyle coney, conan grugan?

No I don't.

Coney and Grugan couldn't cut it. Donnelly and Cavanagh do their best work further out the field.
You're some piece of work. Without doubt a legend in your own mind as to your knowledge of football. I almost feel honoured to read your stuff

Il Bomber Destro

Quote from: In hiding on January 13, 2017, 12:47:55 AM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on January 12, 2017, 11:48:09 PM
Quote from: southtyronegael on January 12, 2017, 11:31:53 PM
you mean guys like sean cavanagh, mattie donnelly, kyle coney, conan grugan?

No I don't.

Coney and Grugan couldn't cut it. Donnelly and Cavanagh do their best work further out the field.
You're some piece of work. Without doubt a legend in your own mind as to your knowledge of football. I almost feel honoured to read your stuff

And what do you dispute in what I said?

Redhand Santa

Quote from: lenny on January 12, 2017, 09:04:41 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 12, 2017, 08:46:55 PM
Quote from: lenny on January 12, 2017, 06:47:47 PM
Quote from: longballin on January 12, 2017, 03:32:56 PM
Quote from: redhandofgod on January 12, 2017, 08:25:06 AM
Mickey Harte deserves serious credit for those 3 all-Irelands, we wouldn't have won an all-Ireland without him, I do fear now that we wont win another AI with him in charge!!!

He was afforded the opportunity to work with the same group of players he guided from minor and U21, at some point the successful U21 management have to be given that opportunity.

He also was given a royal flush hand with Dooher, Lawn, Canavan, Cavlan to add to those underage teams. So not by any stretch all down to Harte but he did do well.

Totally agree. Quite often managers get far too much credit especially in gaa circles. The bottom line is tyrone won the 3 all ireland titles with a lot of the same core squad of players. These players deserve most of the credit. Since the majority of those players have retired Harte has gone 9 seasons without getting close to repeating the success. He has had lots of talent to pick from including all ireland winners at underage level and a lot of those players have been managed badly. The way I see it he hasn't been able to adapt to a new group of players.

Harte also developed those lads through from minor. It's far too easy to say that we just had good players. We've had plenty of outstanding players before and won no All Irelands. Jeez we have some amount of whingers in this county. If you think Tyrone only won the AI because of the players then it's hardly surprising they haven't won another now that those players have retired. So Mickey gets no credit for winning the AI but takes all the blame when we don't. Looking at the other counties around us, I think we have done relatively well to still at least be competitive during the transition from that great team.

There is no doubt he did a good job with those players. My point is it was mainly the same core group of players he had at minor, u21 and senior. They were a great crop of players though and he trusted them completely. I feel though he kept a few of them on too long because he couldn't bring himself to trust the next generation of players. That's what I mean when I said he had managed badly the transition of several players who could've been really good. He has still kept tyrone competitive but that isn't really a big achievement because tyrone have had a lot of underage success and have plenty of talent to pick from.

I know it suits the story that a lot of you are trying to portray on here that the All Irelands were won cause of that one great underage team that Harte happened to manage and they'd have won it without Harte but it doesn't totally add up. Lets have a wee look at the 2008 All Ireland winning team:

McConnell
McMenamin
Justy
Joe
D Harte
Gormley
Jordan
McGinley
Holmes
Dooher
Penrose
Mellon
McCullagh
Sean C
T McGuigan

Only 5 of that team was part of the underage all Ireland winning teams Harte managed - McConnell, Jordan, Gormley, McGinley, Mellon. Now you could argue that another 3 or 4 came of the bench in the final but most of them weren't used that much in that championship. So it doesn't back up the argument at all that he brought one great team through and stuck to them. There was other underage winners on that team and Harte proved that he was able to integrate them into an all Ireland winning team.

Another thing when you look at that team is that only 6 of the team started in 03 so it was 2 very different teams that one those all Irelands.

A manager is only as good as his players and unfortunately we haven't been good enough to win another Ireland since.