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I think McStay is right. I think you would get a lot more but in to 3 and a lot more edge to these season with teams trying to get into or stay in a higher level competition

You Galway lads not even know the height of u lads. Paul Conroy, all 6ft 4 of him is not a ball fetching midfielder, right, Tierney a inch bigger again, christ.

Literally a simple google will tell you Conroy's not 6 4'. We've been watching him for 15 years, often as the midfield partner of actual 6 4' players such as Tom Flynn or Fintain o'Currain.

This is one of the oddest things I've ever seen someone get butthurt over. Galway fans explaining an area that their team is lacking in and an opposition fan trying to argue against it. Weird

He is 6'3" or thereabouts.

This could come down to inches

Whilst the rule book states "Any video footage as long as it's 'reliable and unedited'. Back and white can be used", this still has to be provided by a proper media outlet, to be credible to stand up to Appeals etc.   Unlike the Social Media evidence that appears to have been used by RTE Sunday Game etc, which not only does it not show the beginning of the Melee but appears to show only parts of what actually happened.  How RTE were even permitted to show this given it was not actual footage from a proper camera at the match also begs questions for the Legal Teams.  Both Teams were entitled to appeal and it is actually laughable the uproar at present from Donegal and other counties......having been at the match and viewed exactly what started it.....Murphy attacking Grogan with a Lines Man right beside them ....  Donegal only took their punishment as they were afraid of video evidence of this being provided.  More worrying for the GAA was the fact that Donegal Stewards pushing and shoving Armagh players to the ground during the Melee, were clearly seen on this Unofficial Video evidence and yet nothing has been said or done about that, which was much worse that the players actions!

By Sunday Game I presume you mean league Sunday. In which case absolutely no social media footage was used. Just the camera used in the TG4 footage. Let's stick to the facts here

I think this entire thread shows how much a shambles the system is. No one appealed in this case just for the sake of it. No one was cleared on mere technicalities or because I 's weren't dotted or t's weren't crossed. Nor did the language of the referees report result in appeals being successful. Proper procedures were not followed and there was real prejudice caused by those failings. No one should be expected to accept a ban that has not been fairly applied. In that regard justice has been done.

There is though a real opportunity for the Association to look at the farce that this case has demonstrated and to learn from it. Unfortunately I doubt the association will.

I agree with you that the whole thing is a farce and it has been a farce long before this incident. We in Armagh have not made it a farce. Though I am not yet sure that we haven't exploited a farcical set up.

Over the course of these debates you have proved yourself more knowledgeable about the appeals processes than I am. I bow to that. But you are stating categorically that these players have not got off on technicalities. Now given that a guilty player who gets off based upon a procedural error is the very definition of "getting off on a technicality" can you provide a little clarity on these cases and why you can make such a categoric statement?

I genuinely would like someone to spell out the case against the players and why it was overturned. I presume anyone making categoric statements must be in possession of those facts.

The whole system is need of review. But fans also need to get the a few things straight.

Players can be identified by officials or by a camera. The amount of complaining that you read here based on the video alone and ignoring that officials may have seen things off camera is incredible.

There are also claims that refs have to aim and achieve parity is frankly nonsense. It won't always be the case that both teams are equally guilty. Even in a fracas that has roughly equal numbers from both sides won't necessarily have equal numbers crossing the line into the type of actions that the disciplinary authorities are cracking down on (punches, headlocks, throwing to the ground etc).

What makes you say they are cracking down on punches, headlocks etc. None of the 3 Armagh players were cited for this. None of them were involved in any of this. The height of the complaint against them was that they contributed to a melee. This whole process was a farce from start to finish.

In answer to your question is the various punishments that have been meted out for punching and subsequent to the Armagh vs Tyrone match, headlocks.

I never said any of Armagh players were cited for punches or headlocks so you appear to be answering a question nobody has posed.

I would not be as confident as you that these players were not involved in something. The referee saw something.

The whole system is need of review. But fans also need to get the a few things straight.

Players can be identified by officials or by a camera. The amount of complaining that you read here based on the video alone and ignoring that officials may have seen things off camera is incredible.

There are also claims that refs have to aim and achieve parity is frankly nonsense. It won't always be the case that both teams are equally guilty. Even in a fracas that has roughly equal numbers from both sides won't necessarily have equal numbers crossing the line into the type of actions that the disciplinary authorities are cracking down on (punches, headlocks, throwing to the ground etc).

All Armagh players have had their suspensions overturned

On what basis?

Don't know. But then we never really got to here what the charges were on what the evidence against them was. Mackin did look guilty to me on the video but he is out injured so suspended or not it makes no difference.

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
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Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that

Give us an example of a team penalty that would be an effective deterrent.

It's easy to think of a deterrent. All you have to do is make it very punitive e.g. heavy financial penalty, suspension from competition, embargo on holding home games. Heavier versions of these penalties to be held over for second offences.

The question is not can you think of a deterrent but whether you can get it through Congress.

The disciplinary process and the melee both need looked at.

Penalties have to stick or there is no point in them. I welcome the position the referees are taking of standing back and gathering what evidence they can. Worth noting that the punishments based upon the referee's view stuck whereas the camera didn't.

So far there is a clear position of looking for punches, headlocks or throwing to the ground rather than just grabbing a jersey. I don't think this goes far enough. The joining in also needs punished. If you deter that then you don't get the punches, headlocks etc.

Ultimately this will come to a head when a serious injury is inflicted. There is a basic presumption that something that happens on a pitch won't end in a court of law. Which is true right up to the point where it isn't.

This was a disgraceful stunt by Donegal to get men sent off. It is welcome that they were only partly successful. Hopefully, Armagh will gave the sense not to fall into such traps in future.

It's amazing how people can change their mind when the shoe is on the other foot. For the tyrone armagh row you said

But teams could set a standard too, they could tell their players that if they do join in a melee that they will not be trying to get the off.
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Seems now when armagh get involved it's the other teams fault. Great to see hypocrisy  alive and well.

O'Neill didn't join the melee, the melee was started to get him sent off.

I still think they need something to stop the "all in" aspect, not least because if there are only two or three involved then there is a batter chance of seeing what is going on. Hpwever, it is hard to see how you get from here to there.

Its simple. Team penalties.

Unfortunately the will is not there within the GAA community to do anything about it.

Team penalties are the way to go. Heavy penalties at that

Other three suspensions stand I believe
Process for O Neill was always going to be challenged.

Yet still nobody knows what the other 3 lads did to warrant suspensions (or the Donegal lads for that matter). There is no video evidence showing their discretions, at least with O'Neill you could see some form of semblance of a striking action no matter how minimal it was.

So if the same thing happens again, a few random lads from each side will get pulled out by the referee based on his proximity to them at the time. Instead of basing it on the actual available video evidence which doesn't show them doing anything more than any other player.

This would be normal. The normal starting point for punishment is what the officials saw, not what the camera saw.

You might not know what the referee saw but the players know.

You assume that lads have been selected at random. Is it not just possible that the ref hit a clear line of sight on some offences but not all offences and we just have to go on living in an imperfect world?

Geezer has played a blinder in the background.

What does this mean?

He kept his cards close to his chest by not commenting publicly on the incident in the media which I had wondered whether was the right approach at the time. But he knew what he was doing and got the O'Neill suspension overturned and that at least gives Armagh a chance.

Hopefully the other 3 lads can get justice now as well.

So that qualifies as a blinder then? Right hoh

Geezer has played a blinder in the background.

What does this mean?

[I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.]

What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it.  If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred.  However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off.  Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.

I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.

Fair enough, we all have opinions and are entitled to them.

Well some of this factual. Was it 5 mins or less? Was it only handbags or was there more in that footage? Have the media had a role in this or not? These are all facts and some of them are provable. Everyone is entiltled to hold an opinion but some opinions are wrong

The game was over. Ref and his team stood back and tried to observe the incident. No need to issue cards. Not saying that he couldn't issue card just that there was no need to. Between the officials and the camera some issues were picked up. Others were not

So let's have full transparency then and remove the ambiguity from the situation.  Let's have it explained as to the merits of what those who have been cited did vs those who were not cited.

We cant rule out that there has been transparency. Are you saying for certain that the players and management have not been told what they are accused of and what the evidence agsinst them is?

If is publication to the public that is the test of transaparency the I trust that our county board will make a public statement on the basis of their appeals - the Ciaran Mackin one will be good.

When did this 5 mins on RTE happen? As stated elsewhere it was not on the Sunday night programme.

I've the series of League Sunday recorded, they focused a lot more on the afters than on the game itself, I'll time it later if I get the chance

Have a look then

The incident is mainly handbags and those only involved in handbags are not being sanctioned. But the incident was not exclusively handbags. The incident being generally handbags cannot be a defence to those who take it a step beyond handbags.

Again, let's have the transparency then.

See above.

Has the thing that is pissing you off actually happened?

I feel that it has ... the fact that RTE, both TV and Podcast, show a bias to some situations vs others depending on who is playing pisses me off.

You "feel" that it has. What facts are these feelings based on?
How would you react if the GAA response to your call fro transparency was to state that the the disciplinary authorities just "felt" that the punishments were warranted?

Do the grounds for appeal that you have outlined actually exist as grounds of appeal and do they reflect things that have actually happened and been captured by either the camera or the officials?

I was at the game, I've watched the available footage although limited .. I'm looking at the situation in the context of what I observed being there.  Yes, I do think some of the appeals have a chance of success.

The GAA disciplinary authorities are working on what was visible by the officials and the camera. That won't be everything that occurred. What else can they do?   Should we be appealing Mackin's suspension? I say Mackin as we all know he is guilty. I am not saying a team should never appeal but there has to be proper grounds for an appeal.

As fans I think we are embarrassing ourselves and our county.

Wise up, this is a GAA Discussion Board, not The Hague 

The Hague?? Where does that come from? We have all read some frankly embarrassing stuff that never elevates itself above a childish strop. This is the fans I am talking about. Apart from appealing the Mackin decision i am not criticising the County Board (though that could change if details emerge).   

not every fling of the arm is a strike or attempt to strike. For example it wasn't a red card when done by Murphy during the match. It's certainly not as clear cut as you would make it out.

David
Do you think Murphy wasn't sent off because the officials decided that some punches are not red card punches or because they didn't see the incident?

What irks me the most about the whole process is the role the media play in it.  If the ref. had an issue on the day, issue the red cards there and then and it is clear to everyone why it occurred.  However, when RTE and their pundits decide to show 5 mins of a handbags vs 30 secs of the actual game, then we have every Tom, Dick and Harry calling for suspensions ... that's what pisses me off.  Armagh are correct to challenge this all the way.

I think you are completely wrong. And I say that as an Armagh fan.

The game was over. Ref and his team stood back and tried to observe the incident. No need to issue cards. Not saying that he couldn't issue card just that there was no need to. Between the officials and the camera some issues were picked up. Others were not.

When did this 5 mins on RTE happen? As stated elsewhere it was not on the Sunday night programme.

The incident is mainly handbags and those only involved in handbags are not being sanctioned. But the incident was not exclusively handbags. The incident being generally handbags cannot be a defence to those who take it a step beyond handbags.

Has the thing that is pissing you off actually happened?
Do the grounds for appeal that you have outlined actually exist as grounds of appeal and do they reflect things that have actually happened and been captured by either the camera or the officials?

As fans I think we are embarrassing ourselves and our county.