The Big Bailout of the Eurozone (Another crisis coming? - Seriously)

Started by muppet, September 28, 2008, 11:36:36 PM

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orangeman

Meanwhile a decent man ( not my words but the judges ) gets 6 years jail for not paying duty on garlic whilst thousands of decent people working in the country's banks get sacked but the bankers who caused the mess are still sailing their yachts and driving their big cars and living in their big houses all over the world.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0309/begleyp.html

The head of Ireland's largest fruit and vegetable producers has been jailed for six years for a €1.6m scam involving the importation of garlic.

Paul Begley, 46, avoided paying customs duty on over 1,000 tonnes of garlic from China by having them labelled as apples.

Dublin Circuit Criminal Court heard the import duty on garlic is "inexplicably" high and can be up to 232%.

In contrast, onions have an import duty of 9%.

The maximum sentence for the offence is five years in prison or a fine of three times the value of the goods.

Judge Martin Nolan imposed the maximum term on one count and one year on another count.

These are to run consecutively, meaning a total of six years.

"It gives me no joy at all to jail a decent man," Judge Nolan said.

He said Begley is a "success story" and an "asset to the country" in supporting the economy and providing employment.

He noted Begley's generosity and that he donates money to homeless charities and the St Vincent de Paul.
However, the judge added he had engaged in a "grave" and "huge" tax evasion scheme.

He said the import tax on garlic "may or may not" be excessive, but this is for the Oireachtas to decide and not individuals.

He said he had to impose a significant jail term because such offences are hard to uncover, therefore the only effective deterrence is lengthy prison terms for those who are caught.


Pangurban

It is notable that the former PM of Iceland and his Finance Minister were in court the other day, facing charges of reckless endangerment of the economy. Meanwhile Brian Cowen gets a standing ovation at the FF Ard-Dheis. We have learnt nothing and forgot nothing

trileacman

Quote from: orangeman on March 09, 2012, 05:50:45 PM
Meanwhile a decent man ( not my words but the judges ) gets 6 years jail for not paying duty on garlic whilst thousands of decent people working in the country's banks get sacked but the bankers who caused the mess are still sailing their yachts and driving their big cars and living in their big houses all over the world.

Yeah that is pretty fuckin sickening. Judge believed by handing out this sentence he was upholding the law, which would be fine if the law was upheld consistently. I mean what about Bertie's tax evasion? No bank account/good day at the races? WTF. And Drumm and Dunne? You think they amassed their millions all above board and with the public interest at heart?

Your country is on shite street when importing garlics and calling them apples is worth a 6 year sentence but running a national bank into some 20 billion euro's worth of debt deserves a golden handshake.

I couldn't really give a f**k about Dunne/Bertie/Haughey or the rest but I'd say this Begley fella was a decent fella, not too different from alot of us on here.
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muppet

More pertinently when the Banks were found guilty of the various offenses even before the current crisis  (Ansbacher, Dirt scandal etc) the only person to go to jail was a journalist........for contempt of court.
MWWSI 2017

thejuice

This is lifted straight from Slugger but I thought it was worth throwing up here:

QuoteIs a Yes vote in EUref absurd?

Taoiseach Enda Kenny has already signed the European fiscal compact treaty along with 24 other European Union leaders at a ceremony in Brussels, although it still has to go to a referendum in the republic (at an as yet unknown date). The text of the treaty is provided here and is relatively short.

A couple of extracts from Article 3 (below) give the real substance of this.

ARTICLE 3

1. The Contracting Parties shall apply the rules set out in this paragraph in addition and without prejudice to their obligations under European Union law

(a) the budgetary position of the general government of a Contracting Party shall be balanced or in surplus;

(b) the rule under point (a) shall be deemed to be respected if the annual structural balance of the general government is at its country-specific medium-term objective, as defined in the revised Stability and Growth Pact, with a lower limit of a structural deficit of 0,5 % of the gross domestic product at market prices. The Contracting Parties shall ensure rapid convergence towards their respective medium-term objective. The time-frame for such convergence will be proposed by the European Commission taking into consideration country-specific sustainability risks. Progress towards, and respect of, the medium-term objective shall be evaluated on the basis of an overall assessment with the structural balance as a reference, including an analysis of expenditure net of discretionary revenue measures, in line with the revised Stability and Growth Pact;

(d) where the ratio of the general government debt to gross domestic product at market prices is significantly below 60 % and where risks in terms of long-term sustainability of public finances are low, the lower limit of the medium-term objective specified under point (b) can reach a structural deficit of at most 1,0 % of the gross domestic product at market prices;

A brief review of the exchequer statements shows that the relative income in 2004 was €37.5bn whilst expenditure was €37.5bn, since then only 2006 ran a surplus (2.3%) whilst other years ran deficits such as 0.5% (2005), 1.6% (2007), 12.7% (2008), 24.6% (2009) , 18.7% (2010), 10% (2011), with a further projected 8.6% deficit for 2012. So much for balanced budget, then (or complying with Article 3a).

As Constantin Gurgdiev has consistently pointed out, the recent history of structural deficits does not suggest a capacity to comply with Article 3b either:

Ireland was least insolvent in 1997-200 when the average structural annual deficit was just -0.65% of potential GDP
The closest we came to structural balance was in 1997 when structural deficit hit -0.394% and in 2000 when it was at -0.209%
Our peaks of insolvency were 1981 (-14.034%) and 2008 (-13.323%)

Our worst periods of insolvency were the early 1980s, when 1981-1986 average annual deficit stood at -12.125% and 2007-2010 when structural deficits averaged -10.555% annually (omitting 2007 raises this to -11.266%)
In 2011 we are expected to run structural deficit of 6.761% and in 2012-2015 we are expected to run average structural deficits of -3.753%.

What also needs to be factored in here, in terms of the austerity measures required to reach the treaty targets, is that the government must pay out €3.1bn each year until 2023 to cover the Anglo-Irish Bank promissory note. That's equivalent to around 6% of government revenues, at 2011 levels, or 8% if it managed to fall back to 2004 levels. That's on top of repaying the loans taken out to cover the deficits currently being run. In these circumstances, there appears to be no real possibility of the state complying with the terms required by the treaty. This makes the promotion of a yes vote seem, well, absurd. What possible reason could there be to promote a treaty which will result in the automatic imposition of penalties on the state?

In the Irish Times, Fintan O'Toole gives one answer, as he delivers a scathing verdict on the ideological underpinning of the treaty:

...the fiscal treaty does not deal in "facts". It is right-wing opinion given the force of law...

We're being asked, in other words, to vote for a badly thought-out ideological power grab that seeks to outlaw one side of the argument about fiscal policy. This is as paradoxical as the "war to end wars" – a democratic debate to outlaw democratic debate on one of the defining issues of politics, a vote to limit the meaning of voting.

As ever, read the whole thing!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0306/1224312849769.html

Full article here:
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/03/07/is-a-yes-vote-in-euref-absurd/


QuoteA Yes vote is not absurd, but insane.
Talking of people's grannys – see Finbar's comment (on Fintan's article):

''Fintan,
I agree with you that this treaty is a "Thought Grab". However to understand it, you need to see it not as a right wing – left wing conflict, but as an age – youth conflict.

Germany is one of the most rapidly aging societies in the world. It's imperitive is to do everything that it can to aquire as much capital as possible and preserve the value of that capital against the day when a large proportion of its citizens are no longer able to produce, but require extremely expensive care and services as their health and well-being ebbs. To do that, Germany — publically, through its banks and through its overwhelming influence in the ECB — has pursued two policies:

1. Exploit the free movement of capital in the Euro zone and the incompetence of peripheral market bankers and regulators to extract over the odds returns from supposedly 'safe' assets, such as Irish and Spanish property.

2. Use control of the ECB to prevent losses on those investments returning to German banks, and to prevent the inflation which would ease the burden on peripheral debtors but reduce the value of German assets that German pensioners will rely on.

Yeuch!''
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

orangeman

Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2012, 08:25:24 PM
More pertinently when the Banks were found guilty of the various offenses even before the current crisis  (Ansbacher, Dirt scandal etc) the only person to go to jail was a journalist........for contempt of court.

I've been thinking about this since and the state of the country - we've got it all badly mixed up here - a hard working decent man in the words of the sentencing judge goes to jail for 6 years for importing garlic and not paying the proper duty on it and the government ministers and bankers who were up to their bollox in blatant corruption and fraud and scandal and ont one of them is going to be held accountable let alone serve 6 years inside.

The country is in bad shape. If anyone were ever in any doubt, this man Begley proves it.

muppet

Begley deserved to go to jail. This was a €1,600,000 tax fraud.

However so do all of the others and for longer.
MWWSI 2017

orangeman

You could kill someone and end up getting less than 6 years for it.

Yes Begley was guilty of tax evasion but he clearly has worked hard all his life and is a decent man.

There's no chance of any TDs or bankers going to jail. If there was, they'd have to build a new wing on for them, there'd be so many of them. These boyos have got away scotfree and are laughing at the likes of Begley and all those who are suffering unemployment and facing huge burdens of debt.

orangeman

Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2012, 12:09:56 AM
Begley deserved to go to jail. This was a €1,600,000 tax fraud.

However so do all of the others and for longer.

Begley got 6 years for a fraud of €1.6m.

What would the Tds and bankers get for fraud involving billions of euro ?. Ireland is couped. The decision to ignore all the real criminals in ireland cos they were bankers and politicians whilst hammering the shit out of joe public is sickening.

Ulick

Okay, so Greece has defaulted on 100 billion yoyos, bondholders burnt, bond yields fall and markets rise on the back of it. Any volunteers to trawl back through this thread to see who was rubbishing  the "economic illiterates" in Sinn Féin for espousing the same action?

playwiththewind1st

No wonder the garlic's so bloody dear, if there's a 232% import tax on it. Cheaper garlic - NOW.

muppet

Quote from: Ulick on March 10, 2012, 01:59:44 PM
Okay, so Greece has defaulted on 100 billion yoyos, bondholders burnt, bond yields fall and markets rise on the back of it. Any volunteers to trawl back through this thread to see who was rubbishing  the "economic illiterates" in Sinn Féin for espousing the same action?

Let's not trawl back, let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn.

In addition, the time to screw the bondholders was the time of the bank guarantee. Sinn Féin, Fine Gael and most others supported it. I accept that Lenihan and his advisors didn't exactly give them accurate information but nonetheless SF supported guaranteeing the bondholders debt.
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Ulick

Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2012, 03:59:40 PM
Let's not trawl back, let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn.

Did they not? I've been kind of busy the past few days so haven't been following the detail but everyone yesterday and today (McWilliams et  al.) seem to think they did. What have they all missed?

muppet

Quote from: Ulick on March 10, 2012, 04:05:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2012, 03:59:40 PM
Let's not trawl back, let's just keep this lie of yours that Greece defaulted on €100bn.

Did they not? I've been kind of busy the past few days so haven't been following the detail but everyone yesterday and today (McWilliams et  al.) seem to think they did. What have they all missed?

So far 86% of the bondholders have agreed to be part of the deal voluntarily. That figure will probably rise. That is not a burning of €100bn  which would be a disorderly default. This is not a disorderly default, it is an orderly default on the 86% and the 14% is still up in the air.

Despite SF supporting the Bank Guarantee and then claiming they are for the burning of the bondholders, now pretending that Greece has burned €100bn worth of bonds is nothing more than FF style populism.

The most stupid thing of all is SF would do well to wait and see if the Greece deal actually works first, which it won't, before claiming that is vindicates their u-turn to a burn-the-bondholders (but not really) policy.
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trileacman

On the Begley case it is misleading to call it a 1.6 million tax fraud as much of the money that was evaded in the initial import tax would have been recouped further down the line in VAT, PRSI and corporation tax. It didn't just land in some off-shore account on the Isle of Man. They amount saved would have been spread out over employees, hauliers, retailers and consumers. All companies, to some degree or the other, practice some form of tax evasion. Anyone who tells you different is a f**king idiot.

At the end of it all, Begley would have been lucky to have one or two hundred thousand in his back pocket over ten years meaning in real terms he was probably 10,000 better off ever year for it.

And for that he gets 6 years in prison.

Which would be acceptable if it wasn't for the fact that currently the former board members of Anglo and AIB live in mansions (on pensions beyond the reach of 99% of the worlds people) having caused the downfall of the Irish banking sector and contributing hugely to an European financial crisis.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014