Has April 1st come early? WTF was going on in Knock yesterday?!! :o
I know bad times bring out the more superstitious and gullible side of people, but in this day and age?!! ;D
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1012/1224256437842.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1012/1224256437842.html)
Thousands wait for Knock apparition
THOUSANDS GATHERED at Knock Shrine, Co Mayo, yesterday hoping to see an apparition of Our Lady.
There were ripples of applause from a crowd estimated at more than 5,000 as some people believed they could see the sun shimmering, changing colour and dancing in the sky.
Some people were rapturous afterwards. Others were highly sceptical. "It's an optical illusion, pure and simple," one sceptic, who did not wish to be named, said. "Anybody looking at the bright sun long enough would begin to imagine things." But other pilgrims were adamant that something supernatural, possibly life changing, had occurred.
John Tunney, from Islandeady, Castlebar, said: "I'm 53 years old and I never seen the sun go like that before. I witnessed the sun go all different colours, yellow, red and green. Then it completely darkened and began shimmering. Sometimes the sun emitted a clean, bright light, then it would darken again."
Mr Tunney's wife, Nina, said: "The sun was spinning in the sky. I experienced a feeling of total happiness. It is a feeling I would love to experience again. It was amazing. I felt marvellous."
Yvonne Rabbitte, from Dunmore, Co Galway, showed other pilgrims a photograph she had taken on her digital camera which showed vivid rays radiating downwards from the sun at the time the image was taken.
Maggie Ahern, from Castlebar, had no doubt that the happenings in Knock were due to "heavenly intervention".
Earlier in the week Dublin-based clairvoyant Joe Coleman predicted Our Lady would appear at the old parish church – scene of the 1879 apparition – at 3pm. Quite a number of those present were members of the Travelling community.
The crowds waited in the open air despite an invitation on loudspeaker at about 2.30pm from Knock parish priest Msgr Joseph Quinn that those in the grounds enter the adjacent Basilica to participate in ceremonies to mark the annual Dominican pilgrimage.
Msgr Quinn was not available for comment last night.
I heard about this. I spoke to a man who was there swears all this hapened and there were thousands of witnesses. he is a sensible fellow... so, it is hard to know what to make of it.
Let's examine the choices:
A. a bunch of wishful-thinking morons stare at the sun and see things
B. the sun actually starts flashing and dancing in the sky, undetectable to half the people there or a single soul anywhere else on the planet
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:23:41 PM
Let's examine the choices:
A. a bunch of wishful-thinking morons stare at the sun and see things
B. the sun actually starts flashing and dancing in the sky, undetectable to half the people there or a single soul anywhere else on the planet
Why are they morons?
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 07:27:19 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:23:41 PM
Let's examine the choices:
A. a bunch of wishful-thinking morons stare at the sun and see things
B. the sun actually starts flashing and dancing in the sky, undetectable to half the people there or a single soul anywhere else on the planet
Why are they morons?
Yeah bit harsh calling them morons. They're many things but that's unnecessary. Very funny though.
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The fellow who told me is no moran but is very prone to 'spiritual' experiences, maybe more open to them. Bit of a non-believer in that sort of occurance myself but I would say he really saw that as he wouldnt make it up.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 07:27:19 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:23:41 PM
Let's examine the choices:
A. a bunch of wishful-thinking morons stare at the sun and see things
B. the sun actually starts flashing and dancing in the sky, undetectable to half the people there or a single soul anywhere else on the planet
Why are they morons?
Oh, I don't know... ::)
Would you be so indignant if I called some American redneck who swore he was abducted by aliens for sex experiments or saw Bigfoot out in the woods a moron?
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
Dear God,
Thanks for making the sun dance in some back water in Ireland . However I was unaware you'd be doing such a thing. If it's not too much bother and it would appear to me to be easier could you please sent us all a message via a clear and unambiguous manner . Perhaps via this thing we invented called TV
Yours
Gnevin
Eejits the lot of them.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Like what ziggy?
Bet he was with a woman with a penis. Straaaaange.
There was a similar story in Donegal last week.
The thing I dont understand both sightings were predicted by a clairvoyant, and yet no one who went brought a camera or anything?
If I was told that something like that was going to happen, Id bring my camera to video it... i find that really strange that no one did?
I witnessed the sun go all different colours, yellow, red and green. Then it completely darkened and began shimmering. Sometimes the sun emitted a clean, bright light, then it would darken again."
It wouldn't happen to have anything to due with light being reflected through the water particles in the clouds causing a prism effect with the light wave lenghts of red orange yellow and green (ROYGBIV) being easiest to see with the human eye?
They do quote a Ms. Rabbitte who photographed "vivid rays radiating downwards from the sun".
"They've brought forth juniper berries!"
(http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/4766/film/lob/sandal.jpg)
(Closest picture I could find!)
Sure if they really wanted to see Mary why didn't they go into a field and eat a few mushrooms and then stare at the sun. Anyway, as idiotic as it sounds to go waiting for the virgin mary to appear (how would they know what she looked like even if she did?) these people are doing no harm so let them away at it.
Feck sake why do all these loonies congregate in Mayo, theres that Houes of Prayer out on Achill, I will not comment on it because they are very prone to suing.
Come on Cork & Donegal have some more moving statues to attract them away form our lovely county.
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Don't think anyone is proposing preventing them from doing it. I suppose it is harmless enough in itself, but I'm not sure that the tendency towards superstition and the lack of skepticism and reasoning in a large part of society is a good thing.
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 08:29:18 PM
Don't think anyone is proposing preventing them from doing it. I suppose it is harmless enough in itself, but I'm not sure that the tendency towards superstition and the lack of skepticism and reasoning in a large part of society is a good thing.
My argument is a lack of camera when all these people knew it was going to happen? Wouldnt you want to capture it?
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
The day that even one of these so-called miracles stands up to objective, independent, verification, I'll take a more charitable view of them. The same goes for ghosts and fairies.
Members of my extended family have gone to Lourdes. I think they're utterly fooling themselves that something larger is afoot, and on that basis I would consider their behaviour futile and foolish, to say the least, if they're going there in search of some supernatural intervention. But change it to "moronic behaviour" if you wish, as I am sure that most of the people there yesterday are decent souls and perfectly intelligent in other aspects of their lives.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 12, 2009, 08:37:20 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 08:29:18 PM
Don't think anyone is proposing preventing them from doing it. I suppose it is harmless enough in itself, but I'm not sure that the tendency towards superstition and the lack of skepticism and reasoning in a large part of society is a good thing.
My argument is a lack of camera when all these people knew it was going to happen? Wouldnt you want to capture it?
As I said earlier, they did quote a woman by the name of Rabbitte who photographed "vivid rays" emanating from the sun.
I would expect the photos to have been sold to the news programmes at this point. Fox News had photos of the Hudson helicopter/plane accident a few weeks back within a hour or two!
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
This might answer your question
Parents in prayer death get 6 months in jail
Tue Oct 6, 2009 4:05 AM EDTus-news, us, death, prayerRobert Imrie, Associated Press WriterWAUSAU — A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seek medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced Tuesday to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death.
Dale and Leilani Neumann could have received up to 25 years in prison for the March 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes. They were convicted of second-degree reckless homicide in separate trials earlier this year.
In sentencing the couple, Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard said the Neumanns were "very good people, raising their family who made a bad decision, a reckless decision."
"God probably works through other people," Howard told the parents, "some of them doctors."
The case was believed to be the first of its kind in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.
Prosecutors contended the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk. They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but relied totally on prayer for healing. The girl, known as Kara, died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone finally called 911 after she stopped breathing.
"We are here today because to some, you made Kara a martyr to your faith," Howard told the parents.
In testimony at trial and in videotaped interviews with police, the parents said they believe healing comes from God and that they never expected their daughter to die.
During the sentencing hearing, Leilani Neumann, 41, told the judge her family is loving and forgiving and has wrongly been portrayed as religious zealots.
"I do not regret trusting truly in the Lord for my daughter's health," she said. "Did we know she had a fatal illness? No. Did we act to the best of our knowledge? Yes."
Dale Neumann, 47, read from the Bible and told the judge that he loved his daughter.
"I am guilty of trusting my Lord's wisdom completely. ... Guilty of asking for heavenly intervention. Guilty of following Jesus Christ when the whole world does not understand. Guilty of obeying my God," he said.
The Neumanns held each other as Howard sentenced them, a Bible on the table nearby and their three teenage children sitting behind them in the front row of the courtroom.
Prosecutors had asked for a three-year suspended prison sentence and 10 years probation. Defense attorneys had sought four years probation.
The judge ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for six years so the parents can "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this." One parent would serve the term in March and the other in September. Howard stayed the jail sentences while the couple's convictions are appealed.
As part of their probation, the parents must allow a public health nurse to examine their two underage children at least once every three months and must immediately take their children to a doctor for any serious injuries.
Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson said justice was served by the sentences, but he was disappointed the parents never said they were sorry for what happened.
"They allowed Kara to die because they got themselves too caught up in the misguided belief that they were being tested by God," the prosecutor said.
Dale Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, told reporters the couple continues to trust in God.
"We live by faith," he said after the sentencing. "We are completely content with what the Lord has allowed to come down, but he is not done yet."
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
Lourdes is not all about healing sick people,some people go to pray for other things and if it helps them in some way then whats the problem?
My parents went to Lourdes after we lost my 5 year old brother to a Astmha attack one night,it didn't bring my little brother back but it did help them with their grieving,you may ask how did it help?
I dunno how it helped but they got something from the trip and whose to say what force or divine help they got?
I certainly wouldn't go calling them morons for believing they got "help" from being there,so while you may not believe in God or miracles or anything got to do with religion some people do and anything that can help people get over a loss of such a magnitude is a good thing in my view.
BTW don't you dare say if there was a God why did he take my little brother from us at such a young age...
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
So when is it not "the height of arrogance" to ridicule the beliefs of someone else?
Should David Irving's beliefs not be ridiculed? David Icke?
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on October 12, 2009, 08:46:06 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
This might answer your question
Parents in prayer death get 6 months in jail
Tue Oct 6, 2009 4:05 AM EDTus-news, us, death, prayerRobert Imrie, Associated Press WriterWAUSAU — A central Wisconsin couple who prayed rather than seek medical care for their 11-year-old dying daughter were sentenced Tuesday to six months in jail and 10 years probation in the girl's death.
Dale and Leilani Neumann could have received up to 25 years in prison for the March 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes. They were convicted of second-degree reckless homicide in separate trials earlier this year.
In sentencing the couple, Marathon County Circuit Court Judge Vincent Howard said the Neumanns were "very good people, raising their family who made a bad decision, a reckless decision."
"God probably works through other people," Howard told the parents, "some of them doctors."
The case was believed to be the first of its kind in Wisconsin involving faith healing in which someone died and another person was charged with a homicide.
Prosecutors contended the Neumanns recklessly killed their youngest of four children by ignoring obvious symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk. They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but relied totally on prayer for healing. The girl, known as Kara, died on the floor of the family's rural Weston home as people surrounded her and prayed. Someone finally called 911 after she stopped breathing.
"We are here today because to some, you made Kara a martyr to your faith," Howard told the parents.
In testimony at trial and in videotaped interviews with police, the parents said they believe healing comes from God and that they never expected their daughter to die.
During the sentencing hearing, Leilani Neumann, 41, told the judge her family is loving and forgiving and has wrongly been portrayed as religious zealots.
"I do not regret trusting truly in the Lord for my daughter's health," she said. "Did we know she had a fatal illness? No. Did we act to the best of our knowledge? Yes."
Dale Neumann, 47, read from the Bible and told the judge that he loved his daughter.
"I am guilty of trusting my Lord's wisdom completely. ... Guilty of asking for heavenly intervention. Guilty of following Jesus Christ when the whole world does not understand. Guilty of obeying my God," he said.
The Neumanns held each other as Howard sentenced them, a Bible on the table nearby and their three teenage children sitting behind them in the front row of the courtroom.
Prosecutors had asked for a three-year suspended prison sentence and 10 years probation. Defense attorneys had sought four years probation.
The judge ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for six years so the parents can "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this." One parent would serve the term in March and the other in September. Howard stayed the jail sentences while the couple's convictions are appealed.
As part of their probation, the parents must allow a public health nurse to examine their two underage children at least once every three months and must immediately take their children to a doctor for any serious injuries.
Assistant District Attorney LaMont Jacobson said justice was served by the sentences, but he was disappointed the parents never said they were sorry for what happened.
"They allowed Kara to die because they got themselves too caught up in the misguided belief that they were being tested by God," the prosecutor said.
Dale Neumann, who once studied to be a Pentecostal minister, told reporters the couple continues to trust in God.
"We live by faith," he said after the sentencing. "We are completely content with what the Lord has allowed to come down, but he is not done yet."
Yes, that case certainly starkly illustrated the logical conclusion of indulging superstition and wishful thinking. Thankfully most religious people maintain some grip on reality and can separate out the nonsense.
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 08:57:19 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
So when is it not "the height of arrogance" to ridicule the beliefs of someone else?
Should David Irving's beliefs not be ridiculed? David Icke?
Theres a difference between criticising or arguing against and calling people morons.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 09:04:02 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 08:57:19 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
So when is it not "the height of arrogance" to ridicule the beliefs of someone else?
Should David Irving's beliefs not be ridiculed? David Icke?
Theres a difference between criticising or arguing against and calling people morons.
Ok, I'll accept that distinction in terms of the name-calling, although I would otherwise consider it a very thin line between utterly dismantling someone's arguments and ridiculing them (not saying I or anyone else is doing that here BTW, but as a general observation).
do these people know how dangerous it is to stare at the sun?
ok i dare anyone to stare at the light in room for 30 seconds without blinking, i bet you will see many colours afters, now if you see mary (ask urself how many have you drank?)
Quote from: new devil on October 12, 2009, 07:47:10 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Like what ziggy?
Well I've been to Lourdes and got into the baths there. Within seconds of getting out, bone dry without the aid of a towel.
Came face to face with the devil.
Had a run in with the Banshee.
Spoke to someone after she passed over to the other side.
Rather not go into detail about any of the stuff, if that's ok. Just take my word, they did happen.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 12, 2009, 08:38:51 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:27:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Why should they get the benefit of the doubt?
How about the lads who saw the virgin mary in the tree stump in Rathkeale?
How about Fatima or Lourdes is anyone who believes something happened in those places morons too? Or are the millions of people who visit these sites every year also morons?
Maybe these people did see something,maybe they didn't I'm not religious enough to know or care for that matter but just because they believe something you don't doesn't make them morons...
Lourdes has 67 "miracles" in 150 years . Not exactly a great batting average now is it? Witchdoctors are probably averaging the same numbers .
Would you send your sick child to Lourdes or a Doctor first
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
I never ridiculed anyone on this thread
Gnevin, leave it be. There's some things you don't use to make a point with... this is one of them.
There have been some real shitty things written on this board of late (see stephen gatley thread) but Gnevin you are in danger of plumetting to a depth that is beyond belief. I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 12, 2009, 10:36:30 PM
I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.
Appreciated
Ok, I don't know what did/didn't happen in Knock yesterday but strange things do happen. Many (probably most) of you will scoff at my little tale but in the 1980's when reports were rife about moving statues, I scoffed too and believed if you stared at an object long enough, you could convince yourself of anything, but I went along with a few friends to have a laugh at the whole thing. I thought it was a load of baloney and that if the statue moved in my presence I'd be on my knees or in a convent for the rest of my days.
So nobody was more surprised than I was to get out of the car and walk towards the grotto and immediately see the statue rocking around the place! Not a little quiver, not a "oh did it move a bit there", but absolutely rocking left, right, forward, back - so far that it actually looked like it would fall over completely. This went on the entire time we were there. There were three of us together, two of us saw the exact same thing, the third saw nothing, so if it was some sort of hoax why didn't everyone see it.
What it was I have no idea, but there was something very strange going on.
Got to love the power of suggestion and group think.
(http://www.heathersanimations.com/dance1/a3.gif)
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 12, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
There was a similar story in Donegal last week.
The thing I dont understand both sightings were predicted by a clairvoyant, and yet no one who went brought a camera or anything?
If I was told that something like that was going to happen, Id bring my camera to video it... i find that really strange that no one did?
Couldn't agree more.
Apparently whatever happened in Donegal was predicted by some chap, don't have the details to hand so can anyone confirm thi story to me, the lad that predicted the apparition didn't attend the event at the time he stated it was to appear beacuse........... he was too busy?!
like any one would believe if a picture or TV footage any way
and as for the doctor how about a joke to lighten the mood?
moshie was a fervent Beliver who prayed every day and did good works constantly and believed he had a deal with God who would always look after him , but one day was his town flooded ans Moshie climbed onto the roof to escape the rising water.
after an hour a boat came to rescue him but he said
'God will look after me' and sent the boat away
the water still rose and a another boat came but again he said
'God will look after me' and sent the boat away
finally as his feet were getting wet in the roof a helicopter let down a ladder but he refused to climb it citing his deal with God. he then slipped and drowned
When he got to the pearly gates he began giving out shit to god ,
hey what happened our deal you let me drown
and God says
' hey i did my part i sent 2 boats and a helicopter'
sorry if i sound like a missioner
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quite right.
Arrogance towards and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.
I have no problem accepting other peoples beliefs - someone above claims to have come face to face with the Devil. I don't believe that he/she did, but I am not going to start a campaign to attempt to discredit their beliefs because it's no skin off my nose what they choose to believe in, once they don't start trying to convince me, that is.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 09:39:29 PM
Quote from: new devil on October 12, 2009, 07:47:10 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Like what ziggy?
Well I've been to Lourdes and got into the baths there. Within seconds of getting out, bone dry without the aid of a towel.
Came face to face with the newdevil.
Had a run in with the Banshee.
Spoke to someone after she passed over to the other side.
Rather not go into detail about any of the stuff, if that's ok. Just take my word, they did happen.
When?? :P
Ok ziggy i believe you
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quite right.
Arrogance towards and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.
So what would the "emotionally mature" approach to the events at Knock be? To let them go without comment or at worst take a "live and let live" approach?
Just because a belief or outbreak of mass hysteria is sincere does not make it worthy of respect.
Quote from: rosnarun on October 13, 2009, 12:23:44 AM
like any one would believe if a picture or TV footage any way
and as for the doctor how about a joke to lighten the mood?
moshie was a fervent Beliver who prayed every day and did good works constantly and believed he had a deal with God who would always look after him , but one day was his town flooded ans Moshie climbed onto the roof to escape the rising water.
after an hour a boat came to rescue him but he said
'God will look after me' and sent the boat away
the water still rose and a another boat came but again he said
'God will look after me' and sent the boat away
finally as his feet were getting wet in the roof a helicopter let down a ladder but he refused to climb it citing his deal with God. he then slipped and drowned
When he got to the pearly gates he began giving out shit to god ,
hey what happened our deal you let me drown
and God says
' hey i did my part i sent 2 boats and a helicopter'
sorry if i sound like a missioner
Moral of the story god will attempt to murder you and your family but if your lucky he will have second thoughts and send a boat?
Also unless god flew the Helicopter himself or directly told someone to rescue you ,free will means god had nothing to do with the 2 boats and the Helicopter .Just as people can wash god's hands of Murderers and others such characters by claiming free will.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 07:30:05 PM
You shouldn't be so quick to dismiss what people believe it. I've seen enough strange and unexplainable things, in my relevantly short amount of time on this planet to be prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt.
He's back, it's a miracle. ;)
QuoteJust as people can wash god's hands of Murderers and others such characters by claiming free will.
You lost me there Gnevin
Quote from: Declan on October 13, 2009, 10:01:43 AM
QuoteJust as people can wash god's hands of Murderers and others such characters by claiming free will.
You lost me there Gnevin
When I and others ask why god allows the likes of Hitler ,Stalin or Myra Hindley to be evil or why there are bad people in the world in general the answer is that god gave us free will to do as we like .
Thus if people have free will to murder ,it's free will that would lead to the man on the roof getting the offer of being saved .
Quoteit's free will that would lead to the man on the roof getting the offer of being saved .
And therefore also free will that allows him not take the offers of help or just plain stupidity?
Some doll was on the Gerry Ryan show there now - she swears that the sun started to rotate and dance in the sky.
Our Lady appeared to 6 people in the Church.
I've only skimmed over this thread so apologies if this has been said already. Two questions to anyone who might enlighten me.
How do the church decide what's a miracle and what isn't. For example Lourdes v the tree in Limerick. I did find it funny the way the tree was dismissed and laughed at yet they're still queing in Knock and Lourdes.
Secondly, did any media person ever ask the people that believe they saw Mary or whatever they think they saw what they think it means? I know logic isn't usually at play here but why do they think she would appear for a few seconds and disappear. Maybe she was telling them to f**k off and make better use of their time.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:36:53 PM
How do the church decide what's a miracle and what isn't.
The Vatican study claims of miracles and exhaust what they believe is all scientific explanations before declaring it a miracle or not. Not done on a whim.
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quite right.
Arrogance towards and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.
So what would the "emotionally mature" approach to the events at Knock be? To let them go without comment or at worst take a "live and let live" approach?
Just because a belief or outbreak of mass hysteria is sincere does not make it worthy of respect.
It might have escaped your attention that mass hysteria is what happens throughout the land on a saturday night.
In your considered opinion a couple of thousand people doing what they do, peacefully, on their own patch, is not worthy of respect.
Neither is it worthy of the disrespect you have exhibited. That is the emotionally maturity you need to grasp, but you don't learn that from some scientific study someplace.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 13, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:36:53 PM
How do the church decide what's a miracle and what isn't.
The Vatican study claims of miracles and exhaust what they believe is all scientific explanations before declaring it a miracle or not. Not done on a whim.
Ok, but if something appears in thin air and is witnessed by a few people and no scientific evidence can be found isn't there a large degree of taking people's word for it.
Sorry to simplify it. It just seems inevitable that this would take place.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:45:26 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 13, 2009, 01:40:28 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:36:53 PM
How do the church decide what's a miracle and what isn't.
The Vatican study claims of miracles and exhaust what they believe is all scientific explanations before declaring it a miracle or not. Not done on a whim.
Ok, but if something appears in thin air and is witnessed by a few people and no scientific evidence can be found isn't there a large degree of taking people's word for it.
Sorry to simplify it. It just seems inevitable that this would take place.
I guess that's where faith comes into it. You either have it or don't. Hope I don't sound facetious there.
Mmm, but couldn't a few chancers declare they saw something and it's swallowed by the church and there we have it, a modern day miracle?
Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:50:09 PM
Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.
Exactly. Any believers got an opinion on why god lets thousands of children die (of their own free will) of starvation and disease yet he can show up and do criptic party tricks to the faithful here to let us all know he's "fo real"?
There must be people who are genetically predisposed to soaking up all this sort of bunkum and believing every bit of it. These people who WANT to believe will leave their minds open to all sorts of influence. "Look the sun is dancing in the sky....don't you see it?"........"Oh yes ...yes I see what you mean....it's a miracle".....Darren Brown anybody? :-\. Do not underestimate the trickery of the mind to see what you want to see.
Thank god ;) I'm not one of them.
Quote from: orangeman on October 13, 2009, 10:45:09 AM
Some doll was on the Gerry Ryan show there now - she swears that the sun started to rotate and dance in the sky.
Our Lady appeared to 6 people in the Church.
Who's more likely to appear next around Knock, our Lady or Sam Maguire ? ;)
Quote from: haveaharp on October 13, 2009, 03:39:55 PM
Quote from: orangeman on October 13, 2009, 10:45:09 AM
Some doll was on the Gerry Ryan show there now - she swears that the sun started to rotate and dance in the sky.
Our Lady appeared to 6 people in the Church.
Who's more likely to appear next around Knock, our Lady or Sam Maguire ? ;)
Now that would be an undeniable miracle!! :D
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:41:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quite right.
Arrogance towards and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.
So what would the "emotionally mature" approach to the events at Knock be? To let them go without comment or at worst take a "live and let live" approach?
Just because a belief or outbreak of mass hysteria is sincere does not make it worthy of respect.
It might have escaped your attention that mass hysteria is what happens throughout the land on a saturday night.
In your considered opinion a couple of thousand people doing what they do, peacefully, on their own patch, is not worthy of respect.
Neither is it worthy of the disrespect you have exhibited. That is the emotionally maturity you need to grasp, but you don't learn that from some scientific study someplace.
I presume you've never had a chuckle at the expense of some person or group doing or believing in something you consider idiotic then so?
Sorry, but I think that something like this should be labeled for what it is. Whether it's a bunch of catholics reading something into the fact that they see strange colours after staring into the sun or protestant fundamentalists sending their money to some preacher in the hope that their god will bestow riches upon them to pay off their credit card debt or, to go to the extreme examples, those who reject medicine in favour of prayer or drink the kool-aid. If you think it is "emotionally immature" to be disrespectful of such behaviour, suit yourself. IMO there is far too much respect afforded this type of nonsense, purely because it is religious in nature.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:50:37 PM
Lourdes is not all about healing sick people,some people go to pray for other things and if it helps them in some way then whats the problem?
My parents went to Lourdes after we lost my 5 year old brother to a Astmha attack one night,it didn't bring my little brother back but it did help them with their grieving,you may ask how did it help?
I dunno how it helped but they got something from the trip and whose to say what force or divine help they got?
I certainly wouldn't go calling them morons for believing they got "help" from being there,so while you may not believe in God or miracles or anything got to do with religion some people do and anything that can help people get over a loss of such a magnitude is a good thing in my view.
BTW don't you dare say if there was a God why did he take my little brother from us at such a young age...
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 12, 2009, 10:36:30 PM
There have been some real shitty things written on this board of late (see stephen gatley thread) but Gnevin you are in danger of plumetting to a depth that is beyond belief. I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.
Now I don't think Laoislad is a card carrying Jesuit, nor is Myles, but these two comments have been ignored by most.
If you don't believe in something/religion fair enough, but why feel the need to ridicule, belittle and scoff at those who do.
Certainly if someones beliefs put others lifes at danger then fair enough, but the anti-Catholic crap on here gets depressing at times. And I'm no Saint either.
P.s before anyone mentions it, I do laugh at the flat earth/world is only 6000 years old brigade myself.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:36:29 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 12, 2009, 08:50:37 PM
Lourdes is not all about healing sick people,some people go to pray for other things and if it helps them in some way then whats the problem?
My parents went to Lourdes after we lost my 5 year old brother to a Astmha attack one night,it didn't bring my little brother back but it did help them with their grieving,you may ask how did it help?
I dunno how it helped but they got something from the trip and whose to say what force or divine help they got?
I certainly wouldn't go calling them morons for believing they got "help" from being there,so while you may not believe in God or miracles or anything got to do with religion some people do and anything that can help people get over a loss of such a magnitude is a good thing in my view.
BTW don't you dare say if there was a God why did he take my little brother from us at such a young age...
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 12, 2009, 10:36:30 PM
There have been some real shitty things written on this board of late (see stephen gatley thread) but Gnevin you are in danger of plumetting to a depth that is beyond belief. I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.
Now I don't think Laoislad is a card carrying Jesuit, nor is Myles, but these two comments have been ignored by most.
If you don't believe in something/religion fair enough, but why feel the need to ridicule, belittle and scoff at those who do.
Certainly if someones beliefs put others lifes at danger then fair enough, but the anti-Catholic crap on here gets depressing at times. And I'm no Saint either.
P.s before anyone mentions it, I do laugh at the flat earth/world is only 6000 years old brigade myself.
So where is it acceptable to draw the line then?
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Whilst some religeous people on a personal level do get comfort and strength from religeous belief system (alot don't because they doubt their faith), is that saying though that athiests wont somehow be able to find similar levels of strengths and comfort when placed in the same circumstances?
I don't think so. They will simply use other mechanisms/thought processes to come to terms with difficult moments in their lives (and some wont just the same as christians). Religion is a crutch for the mind and if people need it so be it, but I don't see why sceptical minds can't call it like they see it as long as they are primarily motivated towards exposing the truth. Ridicule may be a byproduct I accept that but I don't think athiests main intent is to ridicule.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2009, 11:23:54 PM
Whilst some religeous people on a personal level do get comfort and strength from religeous belief system (alot don't because they doubt their faith), is that saying though that athiests wont somehow be able to find similar levels of strengths and comfort when placed in the same circumstances?
I don't think so. They will simply use other mechanisms/thought processes to come to terms with difficult moments in their lives (and some wont just the same as christians). Religion is a crutch for the mind and if people need it so be it, but I don't see why sceptical minds can't call it like they see it as long as they are primarily motivated towards exposing the truth. Ridicule may be a byproduct I accept that but I don't think athiests main intent is to ridicule.
I have no idea as to what athiests "use" for solace, but it is fairly obvious on this board, that those who disagree, primarily with Catholic teaching and beliefs and "incidents". Use ridicule and belittlement and scorn as their main weapons.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 11:11:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.
As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.
And I should add that given that the flat-earther worldview is rooted in their interpretation of the bible, then is showing it disrespect, given that it is a religious view, not the same as disrespecting those who saw the sun dancing or who believe there were vegetarian Tyrannosaurs living happily side by side with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden?
LofK and I asked what I consider a perfectly valid question earlier and not one christian appears to want to answer it. I think you are using this ridicule argument to mask out the real questions you are being asked. Easier that way. :-\
I don't know how to comment on the need for spiritual solace. It doesn't form part of my belief system so it pretty obsolete in my mind I think. Once your belief system considers religions as being human constructs, there's no going back. The spell is broken as a famous athiest once said. It's a new reality that you have to come to term with on your own but it's hugely enlghtening IMO. It doesn't concern me that when it's over it's over. In fact I enjoy the fact that as we decompose our biological components (nutrients) will be used to regenerate and thats as close to reincarnation as you get.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2009, 02:24:13 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:50:09 PM
Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.
Exactly. Any believers got an opinion on why god lets thousands of children die (of their own free will) of starvation and disease yet he can show up and do criptic party tricks to the faithful here to let us all know he's "fo real"?
There must be people who are genetically predisposed to soaking up all this sort of bunkum and believing every bit of it. These people who WANT to believe will leave their minds open to all sorts of influence. "Look the sun is dancing in the sky....don't you see it?"........"Oh yes ...yes I see what you mean....it's a miracle".....Darren Brown anybody? :-\. Do not underestimate the trickery of the mind to see what you want to see.
Thank god ;) I'm not one of them.
Don't think you needed to be telepathic to see the relevance of putting that statement at the end of my post, but sure be obtuse.
Whilst I was in no way wanting you to feel the need to offer condolences to Laoislad, the reason for his post was to highlight that his parents found solace from things which you would not understand, or people who may share similar views as you would ridicule and that was why I reposted it.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2009, 02:24:13 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 13, 2009, 01:50:09 PM
Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.
Exactly. Any believers got an opinion on why god lets thousands of children die (of their own free will) of starvation and disease yet he can show up and do criptic party tricks to the faithful here to let us all know he's "fo real"?
There must be people who are genetically predisposed to soaking up all this sort of bunkum and believing every bit of it. These people who WANT to believe will leave their minds open to all sorts of influence. "Look the sun is dancing in the sky....don't you see it?"........"Oh yes ...yes I see what you mean....it's a miracle".....Darren Brown anybody? :-\. Do not underestimate the trickery of the mind to see what you want to see.
Thank god ;) I'm not one of them.
An important point which has been totally ignored along with my point about the rescuers.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 14, 2009, 12:10:42 AM
Don't think you needed to be telepathic to see the relevance of putting that statement at the end of my post, but sure be obtuse.
Whilst I was in no way wanting you to feel the need to offer condolences to Laoislad, the reason for his post was to highlight that his parents found solace from things which you would not understand, or people who may share similar views as you would ridicule and that was why I reposted it.
I guess I must be a bit thick then so, because I am still reading it the way I originally did.
But anyway, I believed in all this stuff growing up, having been indoctrinated like everyone else, and I can understand why someone would find it comforting to go somewhere like Lourdes with its tradition. I'm sure I would find it a very peaceful place myself if I went there. That does not in any way lend credence to what happened at Knock at the weekend, or the other types of wishful nonsense where people see Jesus in the cheese or the virgin mary in the tree stump or mean that we should take it seriously or assign any credibility to it. Even the church authorities dismiss most of this stuff as nonsense.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 12, 2009, 09:39:29 PM
Well I've been to Lourdes and got into the baths there. Within seconds of getting out, bone dry without the aid of a towel.
Came face to face with the devil.
Had a run in with the Banshee.
Spoke to someone after she passed over to the other side.
Rather not go into detail about any of the stuff, if that's ok. Just take my word, they did happen.
Wow! That's a story I'd love to hear if you ever do feeling like going into the detail.
What did the devil and Banshee even look like?
I think they both played for Aghabrack :)
:D :D :D
Seriously ziggy could you go into more detail?
Spoke yesterday to a woman from the Travelling Community who told me she was at Knock last weekend . Acc. to her the clouds parted, everyone was immersed in sunbeams and the sun changed colours and "danced" in the sky. She said everyone there burst into tears. Just saying what I heard.
I haerd that from a fellow from Tyrone who was there. He rang me on his way home and was very exhilerated by the whole thing. Maybe some people see it and others can't. I would be a sceptic too but why would so many people just make this up? Although Blessed Mary, God's Mammy, never appears to Protestants. Now that would be something :o
Come on lads. Do people not understand the power of the mind to fill in the gaps in our visual nervous system. If youre predisposed to believing these type of things then you are more likely to subconciously "see" what you want to "see" (i.e. what other believers say they see)
Sceptics looking at the same thing will see nothing.
Is anyone going to attempt to answer the question as to why god would perform cryptic party tricks to a chosen few when you consider how people are walking away from orginised religions? Would a hard hitting TV ad not be better at influencing the core beliefs of his demographic?
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 14, 2009, 10:41:08 AM
I haerd that from a fellow from Tyrone who was there. He rang me on his way home and was very exhilerated by the whole thing. Maybe some people see it and others can't. I would be a sceptic too but why would so many people just make this up? Although Blessed Mary, God's Mammy, never appears to Protestants. Now that would be something :o
Not trying to be smart - but could you ask him if his phone has camera or video function?
Quote from: stephenite on October 14, 2009, 10:58:18 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 14, 2009, 10:41:08 AM
I haerd that from a fellow from Tyrone who was there. He rang me on his way home and was very exhilerated by the whole thing. Maybe some people see it and others can't. I would be a sceptic too but why would so many people just make this up? Although Blessed Mary, God's Mammy, never appears to Protestants. Now that would be something :o
Not trying to be smart - but could you ask him if his phone has camera or video function?
Well, I would tend to agree that he saw it in his mind but did not in effect really happen. no-I didn't ask him about phone or camera. If he believes, so be it. I ain't trying to catch him out.
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 14, 2009, 11:01:21 AM
Quote from: stephenite on October 14, 2009, 10:58:18 AM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 14, 2009, 10:41:08 AM
I haerd that from a fellow from Tyrone who was there. He rang me on his way home and was very exhilerated by the whole thing. Maybe some people see it and others can't. I would be a sceptic too but why would so many people just make this up? Although Blessed Mary, God's Mammy, never appears to Protestants. Now that would be something :o
Not trying to be smart - but could you ask him if his phone has camera or video function?
Well, I would tend to agree that he saw it in his mind but did not in effect really happen. no-I didn't ask him about phone or camera. If he believes, so be it. I ain't trying to catch him out.
Fair enough - and I'm not particularly trying to catch anyone out, as you say if he believes so be it.
I just can't help thinking that if I saw something like that, my first reaction would be to whip the phone out and try to capture it. I just find it strange that with so many people there, nobody did the same.
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 14, 2009, 10:41:08 AM
I haerd that from a fellow from Tyrone who was there. He rang me on his way home and was very exhilerated by the whole thing. Maybe some people see it and others can't. I would be a sceptic too but why would so many people just make this up? Although Blessed Mary, God's Mammy, never appears to Protestants. Now that would be something :o
i know someone who went up to knock more out of curiosity than anything else didn't see anything at all just people looking up at the sun and at 3 o clock loads of people started clapping . He did say there was a funny incident whereby there was a little girl in the crowd who pointed up to the sky and said look daddy there is Mary in the sky, loads of people started looking in the direction the wee giirl was pointing her father asked here where to which the girl replied she is in the airplane thats just passing by
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2009, 10:55:00 AM
Sceptics looking at the same thing will see nothing.
But then how people who do not believe they will see anything sometimes do?
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 02:28:09 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2009, 10:55:00 AM
Sceptics looking at the same thing will see nothing.
But then how people who do not believe they will see anything sometimes do?
Group think,peer pressure and the power of suggestion. How do smart, strong indepent people end up in cults? It's the same thing. If enough people around you are seeing something ,some will convince themself they see it also.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 02:41:40 PM
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 02:28:09 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2009, 10:55:00 AM
Sceptics looking at the same thing will see nothing.
But then how people who do not believe they will see anything sometimes do?
Group think,peer pressure and the power of suggestion. How do smart, strong indepent people end up in cults? It's the same thing. If enough people around you are seeing something ,some will convince themself they see it also.
I don't know. I haven't spoken very much before about what I saw because I know how crazy it sounds (particularly in a forum like there where only a handful of people actually know me), but I really don't understand how power of suggestion etc could have been the case at that time, as I absolutely thought it was a load of codswallop. I also know a very cynical journalist who went with the intention of writing a skit on the whole thing and had a very similar experience to my own. All I know is what I saw, whether that was divine intervention or me losing a grip I don't know.
Haven't read most of this thread (just this page) but come on, wisen up lads.
Do you really believe the sun changed colours and danced in the sky, and this was only visible from Knock Shrine! :D
If anyone stares at the sun long enough, believe me, you'll start seeing different colours and shapes! If you look at a bright light, then look away, you see different colours and patches of darkness etc while your eyes readjust.
Even my mother (who works in an abbey) thinks this is just "daft". Must be something to do with the recession and people turning to religion for hope - last time she remembers this kinda thing was the moving statues craze back in the 80s.
I remember sitting in the lawn of the national school staring up at the statue of the virgin mary. We thought she moved too - amazing what the will to see something will do to a child's mind. Really shouldn't work for adults as well I'd have thought....
Quote from: Tubberman on October 14, 2009, 02:56:37 PM
Even my mother (who works in an abbey) thinks this is just "daft". Must be something to do with the recession and people turning to religion for hope - last time she remembers this kinda thing was the moving statues craze back in the 80s.
I remember sitting in the lawn of the national school staring up at the statue of the virgin mary. We thought she moved too - amazing what the will to see something will do to a child's mind. Really shouldn't work for adults as well I'd have thought....
This is the last I'm saying on this but if you read my post about the statues - I wasn't expecting it to move and I wasn't staring at it. As for the power of suggestion, Paul Goldin failed to hypnotise me (and I wanted to be hypnotised) - whether that's relevant or not I don't know.
Do I believe the sun danced in Knock on Sunday? Not particularly, but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
Quote from: Tubberman on October 14, 2009, 02:56:37 PM
Even my mother (who works in an abbey) thinks this is just "daft". Must be something to do with the recession and people turning to religion for hope - last time she remembers this kinda thing was the moving statues craze back in the 80s.
I remember sitting in the lawn of the national school staring up at the statue of the virgin mary. We thought she moved too - amazing what the will to see something will do to a child's mind. Really shouldn't work for adults as well I'd have thought....
You saw a moving statue!!!
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
... but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
No one is denying that many things happen in this life we can't understand . However some would rather mark them as unexplainable in the hope that some time in the future we will have gained the level of understanding required to figure out what is going on while others just want to say god did it !
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:41:01 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 05:40:33 AM
Quote from: Main Street on October 13, 2009, 01:28:58 AM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 12, 2009, 08:50:30 PM
I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor. ::)
Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.
Quite right.
Arrogance towards and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.
So what would the "emotionally mature" approach to the events at Knock be? To let them go without comment or at worst take a "live and let live" approach?
Just because a belief or outbreak of mass hysteria is sincere does not make it worthy of respect.
It might have escaped your attention that mass hysteria is what happens throughout the land on a saturday night.
In your considered opinion a couple of thousand people doing what they do, peacefully, on their own patch, is not worthy of respect.
Neither is it worthy of the disrespect you have exhibited. That is the emotionally maturity you need to grasp, but you don't learn that from some scientific study someplace.
I presume you've never had a chuckle at the expense of some person or group doing or believing in something you consider idiotic then so?
Sorry, but I think that something like this should be labeled for what it is. Whether it's a bunch of catholics reading something into the fact that they see strange colours after staring into the sun or protestant fundamentalists sending their money to some preacher in the hope that their god will bestow riches upon them to pay off their credit card debt or, to go to the extreme examples, those who reject medicine in favour of prayer or drink the kool-aid. If you think it is "emotionally immature" to be disrespectful of such behaviour, suit yourself. IMO there is far too much respect afforded this type of nonsense, purely because it is religious in nature.
In your opinion, too much respect is being given to those who congregate at Knock, (by who I do not know) therefore it is justified to be disrespectful.
Yes, that is emotional immaturity.
Just as immature as your hysterical examples.
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 11:11:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.
As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.
First off I'm not sure what you mean by "Laoislads revelation",strange choice of words if you don't mind me saying.
Anyway apart from that to make it clear to everyone I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy or condolences from anyone,I would never make little of my brothers memory by making people feel sorry for me on a internet forum,also we all have our crosses to bare and Im sure many of you have gone through just as hard and tough times.
I only posted that to explain how my parents faith and their trip to Lourdes helped them cope with the loss of a child,it certainly didn't cure everything as even today I can see it still hurts them,but my point was for people not to be so dismissing of someones faith because for those who do believe they can use it to help them cope with certain circumstances as with my parents,and I am pretty sure they weren't lying when they said they felt something when they went to Lourdes.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
... but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
No one is denying that many things happen in this life we can't understand . However some would rather mark them as unexplainable in the hope that some time in the future we will have gained the level of understanding required to figure out what is going on while others just want to say god did it !
So why do you say it didnt happen?
Its just as hard to believe that all these people who reportedly seen this are crazy or imagining things as it is to believe they seen something
But of course, you lot, who werent there, know best what they seen
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 06:56:06 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
... but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
No one is denying that many things happen in this life we can't understand . However some would rather mark them as unexplainable in the hope that some time in the future we will have gained the level of understanding required to figure out what is going on while others just want to say god did it !
So why do you say it didnt happen?
Its just as hard to believe that all these people who reportedly seen this are crazy or imagining things as it is to believe they seen something
But of course, you lot, who werent there, know best what they seen
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
When the pictures come out us doubter will see how wrong we were . I won't hold my breath
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 03:37:38 PM
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
... but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
No one is denying that many things happen in this life we can't understand . However some would rather mark them as unexplainable in the hope that some time in the future we will have gained the level of understanding required to figure out what is going on while others just want to say god did it !
God of the gaps.
Quote from: Treasurer on October 14, 2009, 03:04:30 PM
This is the last I'm saying on this but if you read my post about the statues - I wasn't expecting it to move and I wasn't staring at it. As for the power of suggestion, Paul Goldin failed to hypnotise me (and I wanted to be hypnotised) - whether that's relevant or not I don't know.
Do I believe the sun danced in Knock on Sunday? Not particularly, but I do believe that things happen that we can't understand.
Treasure, I don't know you but I believe your story
:)
The people who are saying wise up lads this never/couldnt happen..do yous believe in god?
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 14, 2009, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 11:11:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.
As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.
First off I'm not sure what you mean by "Laoislads revelation",strange choice of words if you don't mind me saying.
Anyway apart from that to make it clear to everyone I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy or condolences from anyone,I would never make little of my brothers memory by making people feel sorry for me on a internet forum,also we all have our crosses to bare and Im sure many of you have gone through just as hard and tough times.
I only posted that to explain how my parents faith and their trip to Lourdes helped them cope with the loss of a child,it certainly didn't cure everything as even today I can see it still hurts them,but my point was for people not to be so dismissing of someones faith because for those who do believe they can use it to help them cope with certain circumstances as with my parents,and I am pretty sure they weren't lying when they said they felt something when they went to Lourdes.
"Revelation" as in you revealed a very tragic personal detail to the forum.
As I already said several times, I do not dispute that people find solace in religion, or that somewhere with the tradition of Lourdes (or Jerusalem or Mecca or wherever) will have an atmosphere or whatever that touches the believer because of what they believe happened there. That does not mean that everything and anything involving faith or religion is sacred or should be beyond criticism, or even ridicule.
Quote from: Main Street on October 14, 2009, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:13:06 PM
I presume you've never had a chuckle at the expense of some person or group doing or believing in something you consider idiotic then so?
Sorry, but I think that something like this should be labeled for what it is. Whether it's a bunch of catholics reading something into the fact that they see strange colours after staring into the sun or protestant fundamentalists sending their money to some preacher in the hope that their god will bestow riches upon them to pay off their credit card debt or, to go to the extreme examples, those who reject medicine in favour of prayer or drink the kool-aid. If you think it is "emotionally immature" to be disrespectful of such behaviour, suit yourself. IMO there is far too much respect afforded this type of nonsense, purely because it is religious in nature.
In your opinion, too much respect is being given to those who congregate at Knock, (by who I do not know) therefore it is justified to be disrespectful.
Yes, that is emotional immaturity.
Just as immature as your hysterical examples.
No, I did not say that the people at Knock were being given too much respect, I said (or at least I tried to say) that too much respect is given to this type of religiously-influenced behaviour in general (I live in the states, so I have no idea what kind of reception this is getting at home). Whenever someone has a go at religious beliefs, even in the mildest terms, never mind these type of events, we are told both here on this board and in real life, that such attacks on faith are beyond the pale. People can be ridiculed for any type of political or social belief or opinion of any type, but don't you dare talk about their faith!
And the "hysterical examples" I gave includes the event that we are talking about. What happened at Knock is just as ludicrous as the redneck sending his money to the preacher, and differs mainly in the graveness of the outcome to the "extreme examples" I gave. So I do not see what is immature about bringing them up.
But yes, I know you think I'm an immature fool. I'll live with it.
Quote from: new devil on October 14, 2009, 07:35:19 PM
The people who are saying wise up lads this never/couldnt happen..do yous believe in god?
Personally no, but I would seriously doubt that many believers would find these claims credible.
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2009, 07:50:22 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 14, 2009, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 11:11:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.
As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.
First off I'm not sure what you mean by "Laoislads revelation",strange choice of words if you don't mind me saying.
Anyway apart from that to make it clear to everyone I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy or condolences from anyone,I would never make little of my brothers memory by making people feel sorry for me on a internet forum,also we all have our crosses to bare and Im sure many of you have gone through just as hard and tough times.
I only posted that to explain how my parents faith and their trip to Lourdes helped them cope with the loss of a child,it certainly didn't cure everything as even today I can see it still hurts them,but my point was for people not to be so dismissing of someones faith because for those who do believe they can use it to help them cope with certain circumstances as with my parents,and I am pretty sure they weren't lying when they said they felt something when they went to Lourdes.
"Revelation" as in you revealed a very tragic personal detail to the forum.
As I already said several times, I do not dispute that people find solace in religion, or that somewhere with the tradition of Lourdes (or Jerusalem or Mecca or wherever) will have an atmosphere or whatever that touches the believer because of what they believe happened there. That does not mean that everything and anything involving faith or religion is sacred or should be beyond criticism, or even ridicule.
Fair enough..
I thought it was a bit dramatic to phrase it in such a way as if I was making some sort of miraculous claim.
No harm done,lets forget about it..
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .
I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 14, 2009, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 14, 2009, 07:50:22 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 14, 2009, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 11:11:39 PM
Quote from: J70 on October 13, 2009, 10:58:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 13, 2009, 10:44:23 PM
When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".
Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.
Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?
You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!
Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.
As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.
First off I'm not sure what you mean by "Laoislads revelation",strange choice of words if you don't mind me saying.
Anyway apart from that to make it clear to everyone I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy or condolences from anyone,I would never make little of my brothers memory by making people feel sorry for me on a internet forum,also we all have our crosses to bare and Im sure many of you have gone through just as hard and tough times.
I only posted that to explain how my parents faith and their trip to Lourdes helped them cope with the loss of a child,it certainly didn't cure everything as even today I can see it still hurts them,but my point was for people not to be so dismissing of someones faith because for those who do believe they can use it to help them cope with certain circumstances as with my parents,and I am pretty sure they weren't lying when they said they felt something when they went to Lourdes.
"Revelation" as in you revealed a very tragic personal detail to the forum.
As I already said several times, I do not dispute that people find solace in religion, or that somewhere with the tradition of Lourdes (or Jerusalem or Mecca or wherever) will have an atmosphere or whatever that touches the believer because of what they believe happened there. That does not mean that everything and anything involving faith or religion is sacred or should be beyond criticism, or even ridicule.
Fair enough..
I thought it was a bit dramatic to phrase it in such a way as if I was making some sort of miraculous claim.
No harm done,lets forget about it..
Absolutely, and sorry for any confusion!
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:27:12 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .
I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .
When
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:27:12 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .
I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .
When
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:33:20 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:27:12 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .
I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .
When
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy
I dont see any exampes of the type of thing that happened at knock?
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 08:46:01 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:33:20 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 08:30:24 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 14, 2009, 08:27:12 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 14, 2009, 07:08:30 PM
Quote
I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun was dancing just for knock .
A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?
Quote
Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.
Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.
It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .
I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .
When
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy
I dont see any exampes of the type of thing that happened at knock?
If people believe there penis' are about to be sucked back up in to their bodies they will believe anything .
I love how you pick and choose what evidence you choose to process.
There is s big difference between clouds parting and strange sights in and around the sun being visible to a large number of people....versus....Mary Mother of God appearing.
Any of the accounts I've read seem to use the former to prove the latter.
*takes deep breath
I try my best to be a practising Catholic, I do believe that apparitions have happened in places like Bettania in Venezeula, Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France and Knock in Ireland
I have been to Lourdes, Fatima and Knock - the reason I believe that apparitions happened is the stories of the visionaries in the different places reflected a spirituality of someone much much older than the visionaries (Fatima and Lourdes especially) The visionaries used phrases which only bishops, cardinals and higher would have known - we are talking about young children who wouldn't have had the education to even say the words!
Bashing Catholicism and religions in general seems to be a favourite pastime for some people on here - what I would like to say to them is this:
If you want to believe in a 12 legged purple spider from venus named Wilma, fine by me. If you want to believe in nothing, fine by me.
Just don't try to tell me that you know better than I do. I can guarantee that you don't so don't knock me for my beliefs
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 14, 2009, 11:05:37 PM
*takes deep breath
I try my best to be a practising Catholic, I do believe that apparitions have happened in places like Bettania in Venezeula, Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France and Knock in Ireland
I have been to Lourdes, Fatima and Knock - the reason I believe that apparitions happened is the stories of the visionaries in the different places reflected a spirituality of someone much much older than the visionaries (Fatima and Lourdes especially) The visionaries used phrases which only bishops, cardinals and higher would have known - we are talking about young children who wouldn't have had the education to even say the words!
Bashing Catholicism and religions in general seems to be a favourite pastime for some people on here - what I would like to say to them is this:
If you want to believe in a 12 legged purple spider from venus named Wilma, fine by me. If you want to believe in nothing, fine by me.
Just don't try to tell me that you know better than I do. I can guarantee that you don't so don't knock me for my beliefs
I think where the non-believers are coming from is that people in general apply logic in most other walks of life but when it comes to religion it's rules out the window. Looking at it logically for example you are most likely a practicing catholic because of the circumstances in which you were born into. So if you're parents turned hindu before you were born you could quite possibly be a hindu now. Well that's how I see it. And Wilma is yellow this time of year btw. ;D
FFS why do we have to bring logic into this discussions? :)
Lawrence, I have used logic and reasoning to get to where I am today in terms of my belief system.
Please, do me a favour here. You don't know better than I do about what I believe in. You are entitled to your opinion, I am fine with your theory that wilma is yellow. I don't care. :)
I know what I believe and I hold my beliefs to be true, I am not trying to take yours away from you. I just wish you and others would let me have mine instead of castigating me as stupid etc
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 14, 2009, 11:50:33 PM
Lawrence, I have used logic and reasoning to get to where I am today in terms of my belief system.
Please, do me a favour here. You don't know better than I do about what I believe in. You are entitled to your opinion, I am fine with your theory that wilma is yellow. I don't care. :)
I know what I believe and I hold my beliefs to be true, I am not trying to take yours away from you. I just wish you and others would let me have mine instead of castigating me as stupid etc
Why phrase it as "trying to take away" beliefs? You hear this quite commonly, although normally from religious people complaining about non-believers. If one's beliefs are strong, why would anyone worry about or claim that someone else was trying to take them away or not let them have "have them"? And why would anyone object to or be afraid of having their beliefs challenged? You can't "take away" a belief from someone without convincing them to give it away.
Quote from: hardstation on October 14, 2009, 11:54:57 PM
"You only like GAA games because your da liked them. If your da liked darts, you would too".
"You're only called John because your ma and da liked the name. You're not a John, you're a Gerard".
"You only eat eggs because your ma told you that you'd get a hiding if you didn't".
FFS wise up. When people believe in something, their ma, da and granny doesn't come into it. They may have introduced them to it but the individual takes the choice. That is why we have non-believers, who were brought up the same as the believers.
"Do you still believe in Santa"?
You're a gimp.
More bullshit from Hardstation - shock horror. Explain then, if a persons upbringing does not effect their religious beliefs, why there are not equal amounts of Irish born Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews. athiests etc etc. While some will seek out reason to existance in other religions the vast majority will stick with what they were brought up with at home and in school. If you still don't believe this ask yourself why all the churches throughout the world do their damnedest to get into schools and have all sorts of initiation rights for children (baptism, first communion and confirmation etc) at times when children are not acting of their own free will but instead the will of their parents. Taking catholics as an example (only because I was brought up one and know most about it than other religions) by the time you are going to secondary school you will have been effectively railroaded into a way of thinking and I would suggest it would take a major change in your own life to make you change to another belief system.
Thank you Myles for saving me the typing but while I'm at it:
My dad doesn't like GAA and I do.
My ma's a mass-going, pick and mix catholic, I'm not.
I like my name so I kept it. It's not important.
I don't eat eggs.
And Ardmhachaabu I didn't tell you not to do anything or say I was smarter than you. In fact I tried to keep it light and explain where I think non-believers are coming from. People get so defensive.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2009, 11:44:50 PM
FFS why do we have to bring logic into this discussions? :)
You are right.
Time to hang Darwin, Galileo and all the other blasphemers.
Quote from: hardstation on October 14, 2009, 11:54:57 PM
FFS wise up. When people believe in something, their ma, da and granny doesn't come into it. They may have introduced them to it but the individual takes the choice. That is why we have non-believers, who were brought up the same as the believers.
"Do you still believe in Santa"?
You're a gimp.
The individual after a lifetime of (varying degrees of) indoctrination must at some stage open his mind to the possibility that what he has learned over the years is just a human control construct. I'm sure the vast majority (including St Teresa) question the very idea of there being such a thing as a god and at that point scurry back down into the safe burrow that they feel comfortable in, as they can't concieve a contented existence moving beyond that point where they believe god doesn't exist (both from an inner conscience and the social aspect of church going points of view). Non believers have went through the same questioning of faith and have simply had the balls to move away from safe ground as the evidence for believing in it is just not there when you actually go loooking for it (many don't). This blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe bullshit is the biggest controlling mechanism/get out clause in the church. Following a doctrine that was created by Romans 200 years after the death of Jesus using "selected" documents which were written in a totally different language to the area in which jesus lived, no earlier than 70 years after his death (most >100 years after) does not make the Bible the word of God. The record shows that Christianity was used over the ages by the rulers to control the masses whilst the leaders of "the faith" abused and corrupted all around them.
But there aint to many "believers" who want to understand the history before they make these choices that you talk about. If deciding to keep the blinkers on and ignore historical and scientific evidence of the natural world then thats your choice. But it doesn't give you much to argue with.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 14, 2009, 11:54:57 PM
FFS wise up. When people believe in something, their ma, da and granny doesn't come into it. They may have introduced them to it but the individual takes the choice. That is why we have non-believers, who were brought up the same as the believers.
"Do you still believe in Santa"?
You're a gimp.
The individual after a lifetime of (varying degrees of) indoctrination must at some stage open his mind to the possibility that what he has learned over the years is just a human control construct. I'm sure the vast majority (including St Teresa) question the very idea of there being such a thing as a god and at that point scurry back down into the safe burrow that they feel comfortable in, as they can't concieve a contented existence moving beyond that point where they believe god doesn't exist (both from an inner conscience and the social aspect of church going points of view). Non believers have went through the same questioning of faith and have simply had the balls to move away from safe ground as the evidence for believing in it is just not there when you actually go loooking for it (many don't). This blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe bullshit is the biggest controlling mechanism/get out clause in the church. Following a doctrine that was created by Romans 200 years after the death of Jesus using "selected" documents which were written in a totally different language to the area in which jesus lived, no earlier than 70 years after his death (most >100 years after) does not make the Bible the word of God. The record shows that Christianity was used over the ages by the rulers to control the masses whilst the leaders of "the faith" abused and corrupted all around them.
But there aint to many "believers" who want to understand the history before they make these choices that you talk about. If deciding to keep the blinkers on and ignore historical and scientific evidence of the natural world then thats your choice. But it doesn't give you much to argue with.
Oh you're in for it now, not to mention going to hell. ;)
I have read the thread and my first impression is that the people who believe in god and have faith are being ridiculed for doing so.
Several posters have likened to believing in God to some sort of stupidity or unwell mental state.
The poster questioning the evidence and proof of such a god says it couldnt possibly make sense.
I do have faith and had not such faith a few years ago.
Situations changed in my life which left me in a state of complete lonliness and depression (it involved the tragic death of a family member and my best friend) and the only thing i could turn too after this person died was a spark of faith that had been in me through my teenage and early adult years.
i had never been a strong religous person in fact quite the oppisite but i felt i could turn no where else and i know prayer didnt bring this person back but it helped me understand better what had just turned my world upside down including that of my family.
I believe i will see him again and that what makes me get through the bad times and i do feel him when im in need of help.
It was gods will that did this and i have to accept that and there is times i question this believe me there is times i just feel like giving up but thats the whole mystery of it.
It is his will in my view and i just live with it.
Im not imposing my beleifs on anyone or am i justifying religion but please dont ridicule my beliefs as hokey hackey because in my eyes they are not.
A poster asked believers to look at the history and id just like to tell that poster that his historical points are the same as i read in dan browns da vici code.
I doubt his creditionals as a theologian or a historical scholar are up to scratch.
my example i have not given lightly and please dont feel im playing a sympathy card because my life at the moment is wonderful.
Im marrying the woman i love and have a lovely son so i have no complaints.
Just dont ridicule my beleifs cause if you cant prove im wrong about god,im not going ask you to prove me right.
Religion and the whole idea of a god in heaven to alot of people can be a great source of strength to those going through tough times...I get that and I suppose I would not want to shatter or convince people going through those tough times of the absence of god or an afterlife, but that does mean that there is such a thing as a god or a heaven. It is meerly a coping mechanism of the mind at play here and the god in heaven story plays to the mental frialties that I'm sure we all possess and makes understanding of tragedy easier on the mind.
wiki the history of the development of the new testament rossie if your so doubting of my points rather than simply ridiculing
I can tell you that once you have dependants especially that, you do not need a belief in a god to do good things, show good example and possess a strong mental resilience through all the shite this world throws at us. When you realise your children look to you for leadership there is no other way of behaving that I can think of. It's just built into our gene survival instincts. I'm sure for many, religious myths play a part in that whole mechanism but as I've said before that doesn't make the story true.
I would not liken a belief in a diety as showing someone up as stupid or unwell mentally. I would say blinkered would be a better description. Hands over eyes and ears because of the emotional investment paid down as well as the alternative being too difficult to comprehend. If thats where your at then thats where your at. I suggest that you don't read foums where people are able to share their views on such topics in case you read something you don't want to consider.
Lawrence, it's not just you that takes this line - I am tired of immature people who think they can tell everyone how to think and ridicule people who have faith. Apologies if I mistook you for something you aren't :)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Lawrence, it's not just you that takes this line - I am tired of immature people who think they can tell everyone how to think and ridicule people who have faith. Apologies if I mistook you for something you aren't :)
What would you say to some one who claimed to believed in the Flying Spaghetti Monster ,Celestial Teapot or Invisible Pink Unicorn?
Read my other posts to find out.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:05:54 PM
Read my other posts to find out.
I have and I haven't seen anything related to this.
Tough sh1t then, I am not repeating myself for the likes of you.
You simply aren't worth it
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:22:11 PM
Tough sh1t then, I am not repeating myself for the likes of you.
You simply aren't worth it
Your not repeating yourself as you one asked you this before. Typical of the god squad to ignore the hard questions ::)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Lawrence, it's not just you that takes this line - I am tired of immature people who think they can tell everyone how to think and ridicule people who have faith. Apologies if I mistook you for something you aren't :)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:22:11 PM
Tough sh1t then, I am not repeating myself for the likes of you.
You simply aren't worth it
:) immature indeed
Many thanks for trying to enlighten us :D
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Lawrence, it's not just you that takes this line - I am tired of immature people who think they can tell everyone how to think and ridicule people who have faith. Apologies if I mistook you for something you aren't :)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:22:11 PM
Tough sh1t then, I am not repeating myself for the likes of you.
You simply aren't worth it
:) immature indeed
Many thanks for trying to enlighten us :D
Anyone following the thread will see you quoted me out of context and will also be able to see why I couldn't be bothered with Gnevin the WUM
If you have to sink so low to try and get one over on me without even trying to refute anything I said earlier in the thread, fair play to you ::)
Whaaaa ??? I seriously am confused. Set me in the direction and I'll try to understand where your coming from. How did I take you out of context
You said earlier that you believed in apparitions because the children who seen what the seen possessed vocabulary beyond their years. I can't think of anything else other than you belive in god that there is to refute.
Do I need to go back further? And what have I said to you that you describe as "sinking so low" ???
Is this an attempt to just fall out and walk away from a difficult discussion? It looks like it. ...you'll not be the first
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 11:23:17 PM
Whaaaa ??? I seriously am confused. Set me in the direction and I'll try to understand where your coming from. How did I take you out of context
You said earlier that you believed in apparitions because the children who seen what the seen possessed vocabulary beyond their years. I can't think of anything else other than you belive in god that there is to refute.
Do I need to go back further? And what have I said to you that you describe as "sinking so low" ???
Is this an attempt to just fall out and walk away from a difficult discussion? It looks like it. ...you'll not be the first
Well, if you read that particular post then you will see my response to Gnevin was justified - he is being a WUM. He doesn't deserve me to repeat myself. End of.
So when you quoted my replies to Lawrence and Gnevin, you were quoting me out of context.
Everyone on the board knows Gnevin is a WUM - this is one of his all-time favourite topics to be a WUM on. Have you not noticed this before?
It would take someone to be very slow not to have caught on to this fact by now
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:01:18 PM
Lawrence, it's not just you that takes this line - I am tired of immature people who think they can tell everyone how to think and ridicule people who have faith. Apologies if I mistook you for something you aren't :)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 10:22:11 PM
Tough sh1t then, I am not repeating myself for the likes of you.
You simply aren't worth it
:) immature indeed
Many thanks for trying to enlighten us :D
Anyone following the thread will see you quoted me out of context and will also be able to see why I couldn't be bothered with Gnevin the WUM
If you have to sink so low to try and get one over on me without even trying to refute anything I said earlier in the thread, fair play to you ::)
How are I a WUM? The FSM has just much fact backing it up than a Christian god.
So I ask you again to answer my question or is the question too hard so you'd prefer to keep defecting ?
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 15, 2009, 11:28:49 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 11:23:17 PM
Whaaaa ??? I seriously am confused. Set me in the direction and I'll try to understand where your coming from. How did I take you out of context
You said earlier that you believed in apparitions because the children who seen what the seen possessed vocabulary beyond their years. I can't think of anything else other than you belive in god that there is to refute.
Do I need to go back further? And what have I said to you that you describe as "sinking so low" ???
Is this an attempt to just fall out and walk away from a difficult discussion? It looks like it. ...you'll not be the first
Well, if you read that particular post then you will see my response to Gnevin was justified - he is being a WUM. He doesn't deserve me to repeat myself. End of.
So when you quoted my replies to Lawrence and Gnevin, you were quoting me out of context.
Everyone on the board knows Gnevin is a WUM - this is one of his all-time favourite topics to be a WUM on. Have you not noticed this before?
It would take someone to be very slow not to have caught on to this fact by now
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
Also it's not repeating your self if you never made a statement of the subject in the first place !
Quote from: rossie mad on October 15, 2009, 02:47:52 PM
I have read the thread and my first impression is that the people who believe in god and have faith are being ridiculed for doing so.
Several posters have likened to believing in God to some sort of stupidity or unwell mental state.
The poster questioning the evidence and proof of such a god says it couldnt possibly make sense.
I do have faith and had not such faith a few years ago.
Situations changed in my life which left me in a state of complete lonliness and depression (it involved the tragic death of a family member and my best friend) and the only thing i could turn too after this person died was a spark of faith that had been in me through my teenage and early adult years.
i had never been a strong religous person in fact quite the oppisite but i felt i could turn no where else and i know prayer didnt bring this person back but it helped me understand better what had just turned my world upside down including that of my family.
I believe i will see him again and that what makes me get through the bad times and i do feel him when im in need of help.
It was gods will that did this and i have to accept that and there is times i question this believe me there is times i just feel like giving up but thats the whole mystery of it.
It is his will in my view and i just live with it.
Im not imposing my beleifs on anyone or am i justifying religion but please dont ridicule my beliefs as hokey hackey because in my eyes they are not.
A poster asked believers to look at the history and id just like to tell that poster that his historical points are the same as i read in dan browns da vici code.
I doubt his creditionals as a theologian or a historical scholar are up to scratch.
my example i have not given lightly and please dont feel im playing a sympathy card because my life at the moment is wonderful.
Im marrying the woman i love and have a lovely son so i have no complaints.
Just dont ridicule my beleifs cause if you cant prove im wrong about god,im not going ask you to prove me right.
So, like other people here, you found comfort in religion at a time of trouble. Again, I don't think anyone questions that people find solace in ideas such as the existence of an afterlife or the existence of some supernatural overseer. The key point, to me, about this whole thing is what does something like that prove? You often hear religious people throwing statements such as "there are no atheists in foxholes" at non-believers. Or repeating the creationist canard that Darwin recanted his evolutionary theory on his deathbed. Assuming for the sake of argument that those and all such claims are true, well so what? What do they prove except that in times of desperation or loss, people will latch onto the idea of something bigger and benevolent because it comforts them? Whether or not a god or gods exist, the belief that he does exist is comforting to some. That doesn't mean that there is a god, or that the magical/mystical aspects of religion aren't complete bunkum. And I fail to see how it is an attack on or disrespectful of someone's faith to point this out.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 03:42:22 PM
Religion and the whole idea of a god in heaven to alot of people can be a great source of strength to those going through tough times...I get that and I suppose I would not want to shatter or convince people going through those tough times of the absence of god or an afterlife, but that does mean that there is such a thing as a god or a heaven. It is meerly a coping mechanism of the mind at play here and the god in heaven story plays to the mental frialties that I'm sure we all possess and makes understanding of tragedy easier on the mind.
wiki the history of the development of the new testament rossie if your so doubting of my points rather than simply ridiculing
I can tell you that once you have dependants especially that, you do not need a belief in a god to do good things, show good example and possess a strong mental resilience through all the shite this world throws at us. When you realise your children look to you for leadership there is no other way of behaving that I can think of. It's just built into our gene survival instincts. I'm sure for many, religious myths play a part in that whole mechanism but as I've said before that doesn't make the story true.
I would not liken a belief in a diety as showing someone up as stupid or unwell mentally. I would say blinkered would be a better description. Hands over eyes and ears because of the emotional investment paid down as well as the alternative being too difficult to comprehend. If thats where your at then thats where your at. I suggest that you don't read foums where people are able to share their views on such topics in case you read something you don't want to consider.
What the fcuk?
How dare you lecture me on parenting for one and on my (your description) blinkered emotional baggage beliefs?
Who do you think you are? Some kind of fuckin psychiatrist.
I dont need you to tell me how to raise my son or to show him leadership give me a fuckin break.That little person who is waiting at the door every evening for me is the one good thing in my life apart from his mother and i dont need you to tell me how to be fuckin there for him.
Ill manage well enough on that and i dont need the likes of you with your im better than everyone else kinda of shite.
On my blinkered afraid to face the truth baggage i did face the fcukin truth along time ago and im still to this day so i dont you to lecture me on that as well you little p***k.
Ill read this board as many times as i like as well so dont think im going away.
You and J70 give me one shred of reputible evidence that there is no god and ill put my hands up but dont the two of you go around here talking from up on high thrones making a laugh of peoples beliefs with nothong to back it up bar criticisms of meetings that was held thousands of years ago and your lack of understanding of what it takes to have faith.
you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY)
/juː/, /jə/, /jʊ/ pron
people in general
You learn to accept these things as you get older.
You can't get a driving licence till you're seventeen in this country.
Too much alcohol is bad for you.
How do you get this thing to start?
(Definition of you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Idiot!! I told you how to do nothing. >:(
Thats slap in the mouth language btw........and from a man who follows Christ!! Would you talk to people like that in the real world?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 10:31:19 AM
you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY)
/juː/, /jə/, /jʊ/ pron
people in general
You learn to accept these things as you get older.
You can't get a driving licence till you're seventeen in this country.
Too much alcohol is bad for you.
How do you get this thing to start?
(Definition of you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Idiot!! I told you how to do nothing. >:(
Thats slap in the mouth language btw........and from a man who follows Christ!! Would you talk to people like that in the real world?
Ffs lads keep it civil, no need for the threats skull.
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 09:30:49 AM
[
You and J70 give me one shred of reputible evidence that there is no god and ill put my hands up
The burden of proof lies does not upon the sceptic to disprove unfalsifiable claims of religions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot .
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/welcome.html
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/cue-the-zombie-bunny.html
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 10:31:19 AM
you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY)
/juː/, /jə/, /jʊ/ pron
people in general
You learn to accept these things as you get older.
You can't get a driving licence till you're seventeen in this country.
Too much alcohol is bad for you.
How do you get this thing to start?
(Definition of you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Idiot!! I told you how to do nothing. >:(
Thats slap in the mouth language btw........and from a man who follows Christ!! Would you talk to people like that in the real world?
Ooooh check out the keyboard warrior :D
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:35:24 AM
Ffs lads keep it civil, no need for the threats skull.
I threatened no one GDA. If Rossie used that language to someone in the street he'd get and he'd deserve a slap in the mouth...simple as...would you disagree?..or is that the way they speak to each other in Roscommon? He doesn't sound like a man who walks in the footsteps of christ thats for sure. One of the many a lar carte catholics.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 11:53:48 AM
Ooooh check out the keyboard warrior :D
So I assume ardmhacha that you approve of the way yer man addressed me considering you didn't comment on his language? Your silence regarding his inflammatory contributions speaks volumes. What a great example youse all are to the christian faith I must say.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 12:13:47 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:35:24 AM
Ffs lads keep it civil, no need for the threats skull.
I threatened no one GDA. If Rossie used that language to someone in the street he'd get and he'd deserve a slap in the mouth...simple as...would you disagree?..
Fair enough skull, given in that context, I had read it that you were threatening him, cleared up now.
Although I did think that Rossies comments were more directed in response to J70's earlier post then you?
Cheers GDA
But...Rossie was directing his abuse to me, looking at the structure of his post. I think thats fairly clear to see.
theskull1, I commented on your response to his post which I think says multitudes about you, you keyboard warrior
You are a nasty piece of work and that post says it all
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
When I'm gone I'm gone. So I am happy with what ever option would comfort my love ones most . If that's a church so be it .
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 12:46:35 PM
theskull1, I commented on your response to his post which I think says multitudes about you, you keyboard warrior
You are a nasty piece of work and that post says it all
Is everyone who disagrees with you a WUM or a nasty piece of work?
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
When I'm gone I'm gone. So I am happy with what ever option would comfort my love ones most . If that's a church so be it .
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 12:46:35 PM
theskull1, I commented on your response to his post which I think says multitudes about you, you keyboard warrior
You are a nasty piece of work and that post says it all
Your deflecting of my question tells me enough about you to not give a fcuk what you think of me. Is this what you call defending the faith?
Ad hominem indeed.
theskull my response was to you and yes that would have been how would have spoken to you in real life when my temper was up.
you said you told me to do nothing when in fact you gave me a four line lecture in how to raise children and then you told me not to read the forum in the future
Like all men and womaen on this planet i have my faults and i can guarentee it my temper is one.
Just cause i believe in god doesnt mean i dont do wrong of course i do but to say im a la carte is nonsense.
if i was a firm believer in roman catholic teaching then i am a la carte but i dont believe in different religions per say and so am not a la carte.
I do wrong everyday of my life but i also pray everday of my life and i dont expect this prayer to right my wrongs but i do believe it helps me understand life better.
you ridicule my prayer but do i ridicule your non beliefs.
i dont think i do.
Been told that it is all due to happen again on the 31st October next. Place I presume will be packed out.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
No it's not as simple as that hugh. From a cultural perspective our society is not ready for humanist style burials. Christians appear to have an irrational fear of athiesm from what I can see and they almost align it to devil worship. If I lived in a society where I knew my decendants we're not going to be ostricised or made subjects of ridicule simply as a result of me holding and standing up for my beliefs in such a public way then I would prefer to be buried somewhere where an large tree could be planted beneath me to enjoy the nutrients (I like the thought that) but I couldn't be sure of the support they would get from people who had strong allegience towards the church. They are the ones who have to live on. So until that day comes I'm happy that they bury me whatever way they want to.....I'll not be arguing come the time.
Quote from: Canalman on October 16, 2009, 01:14:57 PM
Been told that it is all due to happen again on the 31st October next. Place I presume will be packed out.
Very good of the sun, or whoever it, is to give us notice.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
No it's not as simple as that hugh. From a cultural perspective our society is not ready for humanist style burials. Christians appear to have an irrational fear of athiesm from what I can see and they almost align it to devil worship. If I lived in a society where I knew my decendants we're not going to be ostricised or made subjects of ridicule simply as a result of me holding and standing up for my beliefs in such a public way then I would prefer to be buried somewhere where an large tree could be planted beneath me to enjoy the nutrients (I like the thought that) but I couldn't be sure of the support they would get from people who had strong allegience towards the church. They are the ones who have to live on. So until that day comes I'm happy that they bury me whatever way they want to.....I'll not be arguing come the time.
But it's not about what anyone else wants at a time like this, it's about your final wishes being carried out.I know a friend of my mothers who recently had a humanitarian sevice for her husband.All the friends and neighbours came and took part.I know that their was nothing but support for the family.It's about what you believe in ,not what anyone else thinks.Are you saying that you would go down the church route to keep your family happy?If so, surely your convictions can't be too strong.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 10:31:19 AM
you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY)
/juː/, /jə/, /jʊ/ pron
people in general
You learn to accept these things as you get older.
You can't get a driving licence till you're seventeen in this country.
Too much alcohol is bad for you.
How do you get this thing to start?
(Definition of you pronoun (PEOPLE GENERALLY) from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Idiot!! I told you how to do nothing. >:(
Thats slap in the mouth language btw........and from a man who follows Christ!! Would you talk to people like that in the real world?
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
theskull my response was to you and yes that would have been how would have spoken to you in real life when my temper was up.
you said you told me to do nothing when in fact you gave me a four line lecture in how to raise children and then you told me not to read the forum in the future
Are you blind as well Rossie?
"you" did not mean YOU. FFS!!
I'd get that temper sorted if I we're you cause you'll end up starting rows out of nothing simply because you misinterpret what people are saying.
The christian (and the aithiest) thing would be to apologise for using such language?
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
theskull my response was to you and yes that would have been how would have spoken to you in real life when my temper was up.
you said you told me to do nothing when in fact you gave me a four line lecture in how to raise children and then you told me not to read the forum in the future
Like all men and womaen on this planet i have my faults and i can guarentee it my temper is one.
Just cause i believe in god doesnt mean i dont do wrong of course i do but to say im a la carte is nonsense.
if i was a firm believer in roman catholic teaching then i am a la carte but i dont believe in different religions per say and so am not a la carte.
I do wrong everyday of my life but i also pray everday of my life and i dont expect this prayer to right my wrongs but i do believe it helps me understand life better.
you ridicule my prayer but do i ridicule your non beliefs.
i dont think i do.
Rossie do you mind me asking who exactly it is you pray to if you don't believe in different religions per se? That's another criticism I have of the typical laid back Irish christian (not saying you Rossie). A lot of the time I hear "well I belive in God but not all that going to mass and intense stuff."
As for the funeral chat, I think I'd take my ashes thrown across Breffni Park, that'd do.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:31:54 PM
But it's not about what anyone else wants at a time like this, it's about your final wishes being carried out.I know a friend of my mothers who recently had a humanitarian sevice for her husband.All the friends and neighbours came and took part.I know that their was nothing but support for the family.It's about what you believe in ,not what anyone else thinks.Are you saying that you would go down the church route to keep your family happy?If so, surely your convictions can't be too strong.
Hugh...I'll be dead...really I like the idea of a burial beneath a tree that my loved one can watch it grow and use that to remember me by.....but in the same breath I know I'll be dead and gone, so if my loved ones feel comfortable with being able to do that then great....if they are not then that is their decision to make come the time not mine.
What do you mean about having strong convictions btw? Being an athiest is a belief that there is no such thing as god..........not being anti-god. Memories are important so as long as loved ones can come and visit a burial site anywhere (including a graveyard) on the planet will be grand.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 01:45:57 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:31:54 PM
But it's not about what anyone else wants at a time like this, it's about your final wishes being carried out.I know a friend of my mothers who recently had a humanitarian sevice for her husband.All the friends and neighbours came and took part.I know that their was nothing but support for the family.It's about what you believe in ,not what anyone else thinks.Are you saying that you would go down the church route to keep your family happy?If so, surely your convictions can't be too strong.
Hugh...I'll be dead...really I like the idea of a burial beneath a tree that my loved one can watch it grow and use that to remember me by.....but in the same breath I know I'll be dead and gone, so if my loved ones feel comfortable with being able to do that then great....if they are not then that is their decision to make come the time not mine.
What do you mean about having strong convictions btw? Being an athiest is a belief that there is no such thing as god..........not being anti-god. Memories are important so as long as loved ones can come and visit a burial site anywhere (including a graveyard) on the planet will be grand.
Skull , by convictions I mean beliefs,sorry , maybe the wrong word to use in this context.The point that I feel you're missing is that it is your decision to decide how your funeral is carried out ,not that of your loved ones.IMO leaving the difficult decisions to loved ones after you have departed is a bit of a cop out,and leaves them with a lingering doubt as to whether they have done the right thing as per your beliefs.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 16, 2009, 01:39:50 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
theskull my response was to you and yes that would have been how would have spoken to you in real life when my temper was up.
you said you told me to do nothing when in fact you gave me a four line lecture in how to raise children and then you told me not to read the forum in the future
Like all men and womaen on this planet i have my faults and i can guarentee it my temper is one.
Just cause i believe in god doesnt mean i dont do wrong of course i do but to say im a la carte is nonsense.
if i was a firm believer in roman catholic teaching then i am a la carte but i dont believe in different religions per say and so am not a la carte.
I do wrong everyday of my life but i also pray everday of my life and i dont expect this prayer to right my wrongs but i do believe it helps me understand life better.
you ridicule my prayer but do i ridicule your non beliefs.
i dont think i do.
Rossie do you mind me asking who exactly it is you pray to if you don't believe in different religions per se? That's another criticism I have of the typical laid back Irish christian (not saying you Rossie). A lot of the time I hear "well I belive in God but not all that going to mass and intense stuff."
As for the funeral chat, I think I'd take my ashes thrown across Breffni Park, that'd do.
Lawrence ,I like the notion of Breffni park as your final resting place.What about the funeral part at the crematorium? Any preferances?
The skull you replied to my post and in doing so i automatically thought you were referring to me.
nevertheless the language was uncalled for and my sincere apologies for the language but not the tone.
Lawrence i am a christian and in so i believe in christ and that god is everthing around us.
I do go to mass and i do receive the sacrement of holy communion as i bekieve that christ gave up his life so that we as mankind might stop being sinners and repent and love each other as he loves us.
Im not preaching but thats what i believe.I dont beleive catholic or protestant or presbythiarian or dissenter are different.I see them as christians and people who believe in and love god.
All thier other different arguments dont really bother me.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
When I'm gone I'm gone. So I am happy with what ever option would comfort my love ones most . If that's a church so be it .
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
I don't care if it looks hypocritical . I'm gone at this stage .
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:54:54 PM
Skull , by convictions I mean beliefs,sorry , maybe the wrong word to use in this context.The point that I feel you're missing is that it is your decision to decide how your funeral is carried out ,not that of your loved ones.IMO leaving the difficult decisions to loved ones after you have departed is a bit of a cop out,and leaves them with a lingering doubt as to whether they have done the right thing as per your beliefs.
OK
I just don't fully agree with that bit in bold hugh. If come the time I get to voice a preference and if my loved ones come the time are happy to follow them though it's all good. But my preference will also take into consideration the fact that they will have to carry them out so their feelings and thoughts will also come into play in any opinions I would have.
So take the example that I say I want to be buried in the garden and a tree planted in my memory. If when I'm living, my loved ones under pressure say that they'll follow my wishes. Then up to the point when I die I'll enjoy the thought that they'll look out into the garden and remember the time they had when I was living (hopefully with a smile). Then say after I die they don't feel they can go through with it for one reason or another? They'll be the ones left carrying the guilt trip because they didn't follow instructions through. I'd rather not burden anyone after I'm gone....as I've said I'll have a preference but they'll also know that I'm happy with whatever they choose to do which is good for them.
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 02:00:34 PM
The skull you replied to my post and in doing so i automatically thought you were referring to me.
nevertheless the language was uncalled for and my sincere apologies for the language but not the tone.
I accept your apology for the uncalled for language. Thankyou.
You thought I was referring specifically to you but you were incorrect in that assumption. So could I suggest you seek clarification before you loose the bap next time and then we'll have neither the tone (which was also uncalled for considering your misinterpretation) or the uncalled for language.
One of other faults is i hate when im wrong ;)
ill try to curb it.
;)
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 02:21:52 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:54:54 PM
Skull , by convictions I mean beliefs,sorry , maybe the wrong word to use in this context.The point that I feel you're missing is that it is your decision to decide how your funeral is carried out ,not that of your loved ones.IMO leaving the difficult decisions to loved ones after you have departed is a bit of a cop out,and leaves them with a lingering doubt as to whether they have done the right thing as per your beliefs.
OK
I just don't fully agree with that bit in bold hugh. If come the time I get to voice a preference and if my loved ones come the time are happy to follow them though it's all good. But my preference will also take into consideration the fact that they will have to carry them out so their feelings and thoughts will also come into play in any opinions I would have.
So take the example that I say I want to be buried in the garden and a tree planted in my memory. If when I'm living, my loved ones under pressure say that they'll follow my wishes. Then up to the point when I die I'll enjoy the thought that they'll look out into the garden and remember the time they had when I was living (hopefully with a smile). Then say after I die they don't feel they can go through with it for one reason or another? They'll be the ones left carrying the guilt trip because they didn't follow instructions through. I'd rather not burden anyone after I'm gone....as I've said I'll have a preference but they'll also know that I'm happy with whatever they choose to do which is good for them.
[/quote
Skull I fully respect the fact that you disagree with that which you have highlighted, fair play, but the bit that really interest me is the actual funeral/service part. What would your own personal preferences be? The reason I'm so interested is that it is a situation that has cropped up with the famliy of a very close friend,just in case you think I'm trying to get a rise - I'm not.
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 02:15:30 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
When I'm gone I'm gone. So I am happy with what ever option would comfort my love ones most . If that's a church so be it .
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
I don't care if it looks hypocritical . I'm gone at this stage .
So you have no issue being remembered as a hypocrit? The loved ones that you leave behind might have an issue with it though.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 02:58:25 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 02:15:30 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 12:53:15 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 12:47:40 PM
Quick question for the non-believers here.What options would you favour,or indeend what are the options, when it comes to making funeral arrangements for non- believers.I'm not on a wind up mission here ,I'm genuinely very interested.I have heard of humanitarian services ,but don't really know what happens.Is a wake still a possible part of the whole thing without the religious element?
When I'm gone I'm gone. So I am happy with what ever option would comfort my love ones most . If that's a church so be it .
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
I don't care if it looks hypocritical . I'm gone at this stage .
So you have no issue being remembered as a hypocrit? The loved ones that you leave behind might have an issue with it though.
If they have an issue with me being remembered as a hypocrite well then they will bury me under a tree . This would also be my preferred option but ultimately choice would theirs
Gnevin , I fully respect your wishes to be laid to rest wherever you as a non- believer see fit.I'm interested to know what would be your idea of a fitting service/ceremony before said laying to rest.
When I die, I'll let others decide how they want to reflect and remember me at a funeral service. I'm sure they'll try to make it reflect who I was as a person. I really don't care/think too much about that part to tell you the truth ( I hope I've a fair few years left in me before I need to concern myself with that) as long as they don't overtly lie about the type of person I was I suppose. I can deal with the facad of a church burial as long as my friends and family don't try and cover up or blot out my views on god if asked about my beliefs I'd be happy (even though I'll be dead :)) . I can't stand liars.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 03:07:28 PM
Gnevin , I fully respect your wishes to be laid to rest wherever you as a non- believer see fit.I'm interested to know what would be your idea of a fitting service/ceremony before said laying to rest.
The Catholic mass service is actually quite nice at the part when people get up and speak . If I was to go tomorrow. I'd like coffin in the centre ,some sort of "chairman" not the right word but someone to replace the priest duties of being calm and composed and who would call up people who wished to speak .
Sure what else would you be doing on a Friday afternoon but discussing your own funeral service, delightful.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 03:08:45 PM
When I die, I'll let others decide how they want to reflect and remember me at a funeral service. I'm sure they'll try to make it reflect who I was as a person. I really don't care/think too much about that part to tell you the truth ( I hope I've a fair few years left in me before I need to concern myself with that) as long as they don't overtly lie about the type of person I was I suppose. I can deal with the facad of a church burial as long as my friends and family don't try and cover up or blot out my views on god if asked about my beliefs I'd be happy (even though I'll be dead :)) . I can't stand liars.
Skull , back to the point I made earlier to Gnevin , would you not feel like a hypocrit having a church burial?
Quote from: Gnevin on October 16, 2009, 03:11:48 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 03:07:28 PM
Gnevin , I fully respect your wishes to be laid to rest wherever you as a non- believer see fit.I'm interested to know what would be your idea of a fitting service/ceremony before said laying to rest.
The Catholic mass service is actually quite nice at the part when people get up and speak . If I was to go tomorrow. I'd like coffin in the centre ,some sort of "chairman" not the right word but someone to replace the priest duties of being calm and composed and who would call up people who wished to speak .
I think POG would like to speak a few words.
I know this is a discussion board an all that but we could have 1200 pages on this and people are still gona have their same views and arguments for and against. Its getting slightly repetitive
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 02:32:59 PM
One of other faults is i hate when im wrong ;)
ill try to curb it.
Eh?
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:58:48 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 16, 2009, 01:39:50 PM
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
theskull my response was to you and yes that would have been how would have spoken to you in real life when my temper was up.
you said you told me to do nothing when in fact you gave me a four line lecture in how to raise children and then you told me not to read the forum in the future
Like all men and womaen on this planet i have my faults and i can guarentee it my temper is one.
Just cause i believe in god doesnt mean i dont do wrong of course i do but to say im a la carte is nonsense.
if i was a firm believer in roman catholic teaching then i am a la carte but i dont believe in different religions per say and so am not a la carte.
I do wrong everyday of my life but i also pray everday of my life and i dont expect this prayer to right my wrongs but i do believe it helps me understand life better.
you ridicule my prayer but do i ridicule your non beliefs.
i dont think i do.
Rossie do you mind me asking who exactly it is you pray to if you don't believe in different religions per se? That's another criticism I have of the typical laid back Irish christian (not saying you Rossie). A lot of the time I hear "well I belive in God but not all that going to mass and intense stuff."
As for the funeral chat, I think I'd take my ashes thrown across Breffni Park, that'd do.
Lawrence ,I like the notion of Breffni park as your final resting place.What about the funeral part at the crematorium? Any preferances?
Not really. Whatever people wanted to do to send me off but I wouldn't like a religous ceremony and I'd hope that I'd make that clear to all concerned in advance. Not much I could do about it though is there. Unless................
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
I know this is a discussion board an all that but we could have 1200 pages on this and people are still gona have their same views and arguments for and against. Its getting slightly repetitive
I don't think bringing POG into is going to lessen the repetitiveness somehow.
What has pints got to do with this
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:18:44 PM
I know this is a discussion board an all that but we could have 1200 pages on this and people are still gona have their same views and arguments for and against. Its getting slightly repetitive
I'm not trying to change anyones opinions for or against.Just interested in how non-believers see the whole thing ending.If this thread is'nt for you then don't feel compelled to post.I'm sure there are other threads that interest you more - go post there.
Who said this thread didnt interest me - i dont read threads that dont interest me - this one did hence the reason im reading it. And im entitled to my opinion that it seemed to be going round in circles.
Anyway carry on
You still watching TG? If so I'm not posting anymore 'til you're not!! :-*
:D Il leave u to it - Enjoy :P
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
:D Il leave u to it - Enjoy :P
Thank God (or Jehova, whatever floats yer boat) that crazy bitch is gone!!Right lads what were we saying? Oh aye - death eh? Crazy shit when you think about it.!
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 03:41:55 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
:D Il leave u to it - Enjoy :P
Thank God (or Jehova, whatever floats yer boat) that crazy bitch is gone!!Right lads what were we saying? Oh aye - death eh? Crazy shit when you think about it.!
Abe: I'm beginning to think you don't love me.
Homer: Awww! Dad I love you. If it were up to me you'd never die. But try telling that to Killy McGhee up there!
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 03:41:55 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
:D Il leave u to it - Enjoy :P
Thank God (or Jehova, whatever floats yer boat) that crazy bitch is gone!!Right lads what were we saying? Oh aye - death eh? Crazy shit when you think about it.!
:D Indeedin it is hugh...indeedin it is
Back to your question about me feeling a hypocrite if I have a funeral service in a church. I disagree with that assertion
"Your health is bound to be affected if, day after day, you say the opposite of what you feel, if you grovel before what you dislike..."
Most of my family and friends know my position so I don't live a lie on this issue, but culturally it's just not that easy to buck the trend when you come up against ingrained institutions like church burials and try to do something different. I'm sure that will change in time and it will be a different landscape to look at if it does (hopefully the tree above me will enhance it). I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 04:42:15 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 03:41:55 PM
Quote from: tyrone girl on October 16, 2009, 03:37:24 PM
:D Il leave u to it - Enjoy :P
Thank God (or Jehova, whatever floats yer boat) that crazy bitch is gone!!Right lads what were we saying? Oh aye - death eh? Crazy shit when you think about it.!
:D Indeedin it is hugh...indeedin it is
Back to your question about me feeling a hypocrite if I have a funeral service in a church. I disagree with that assertion
"Your health is bound to be affected if, day after day, you say the opposite of what you feel, if you grovel before what you dislike..."
Most of my family and friends know my position so I don't live a lie on this issue, but culturally it's just not that easy to buck the trend when you come up against ingrained institutions like church burials and try to do something different. I'm sure that will change in time and it will be a different landscape to look at if it does (hopefully the tree above me will enhance it). I don't see how that makes me a hypocrite?
If you're happy enough that this will not leave a blot of hypocrasy on your memory then this is the way to go. When the time comes for you my friend, I wish you only peaceful rest.
If TG sees many more posts on this thread she's gonna go apeshit. She finds it interesting............but repetative.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 12:46:35 PM
theskull1, I commented on your response to his post which I think says multitudes about you, you keyboard warrior
You are a nasty piece of work and that post says it all
Your deflecting of my question tells me enough about you to not give a fcuk what you think of me. Is this what you call defending the faith?
Ad hominem indeed.
I am not defending my faith here, I am pointing out to you and anyone else reading the thread what a nasty little man you are. You threatened to use physical violence on another poster here. Others have been banned for the same sort of thing. It must take you to be a real big man to come out with threats from the safety of behind your keyboard
Also you aren't too worried at all the ad hominem remarks made towards me and others who
do believe. Your insincerity shines out of you, well done :)
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 12, 2009, 07:51:59 PM
There was a similar story in Donegal last week.
The thing I dont understand both sightings were predicted by a clairvoyant, and yet no one who went brought a camera or anything?
You're friend from crossmolina (ly.i.t) has a video clip on his phone. Text him and he will send it to ya
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 06:55:45 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 01:08:21 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 16, 2009, 12:46:35 PM
theskull1, I commented on your response to his post which I think says multitudes about you, you keyboard warrior
You are a nasty piece of work and that post says it all
Your deflecting of my question tells me enough about you to not give a fcuk what you think of me. Is this what you call defending the faith?
Ad hominem indeed.
I am not defending my faith here, I am pointing out to you and anyone else reading the thread what a nasty little man you are. You threatened to use physical violence on another poster here. Others have been banned for the same sort of thing. It must take you to be a real big man to come out with threats from the safety of behind your keyboard
Away on ya fool ye. After accepting the mans decent apology and moving on you want keep stirring the pot. Get your mammy to read over the conversations again with you to see if I did anything of the sort. Hopefully she's more sense as most people on here appear to have
.
Unless you want to try and reply to any of the points I made in the thread, I won't be replying to any more of your nonsense
I dont believe for one second the claims at Knock, not one second, that said I do believe in God and I could not agree less with the skull and gnevin on this thread. The skull did not threaten anyone however he alluded to the fact that a poster would be slapped if they said what they said out on the street, this could have been taken several ways.
As for the skulls assertion that posters were 'a la carte Catholics' ( nice wee phrase that :() well............... he is talking out of his arse, the problem with non believers sometimes is that they come across as arrogant pricks, sanctimonious arseholes who go out of their way to offend people of faith and this has been done by several poosters on this thread and sadly people bite.
One last thing, just because someone professes to be a Christian does not make them perfect, some of these lads seem to think that if the likes of ardmachaabu write a swear word or say something off colour they are immediately bad Christians or hypocrites, this is wrong, they are fecking people and people are not perfect.
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
And can anyone explain why some observed phenomenon around the sun = Mary Mother of God?
Quote from: muppet on October 16, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
And can anyone explain why some observed phenomenon around the sun = Mary Mother of God?
Sorry but is answering a question with a question not a bit defensive or deflective?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:55:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 16, 2009, 10:46:45 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
And can anyone explain why some observed phenomenon around the sun = Mary Mother of God?
Sorry but is answering a question with a question not a bit defensive or deflective?
Its hardly deflective, its the crux of the whole matter.
Quote from: stew on October 16, 2009, 09:39:25 PM
I dont believe for one second the claims at Knock, not one second, that said I do believe in God and I could not agree less with the skull and gnevin on this thread. The skull did not threaten anyone however he alluded to the fact that a poster would be slapped if they said what they said out on the street, this could have been taken several ways.
As for the skulls assertion that posters were 'a la carte Catholics' ( nice wee phrase that :() well............... he is talking out of his arse, the problem with non believers sometimes is that they come across as arrogant pricks, sanctimonious arseholes who go out of their way to offend people of faith and this has been done by several poosters on this thread and sadly people bite.
One last thing, just because someone professes to be a Christian does not make them perfect, some of these lads seem to think that if the likes of ardmachaabu write a swear word or say something off colour they are immediately bad Christians or hypocrites, this is wrong, they are fecking people and people are not perfect.
:-\ ::)
Not that you would do such a thing yourself stew (bad word choice when referring to athiests btw). What is with people like yourself. Is this militant christianity we're dealing with here.
Theres a difference in trying to make what you feel is a valid point and offend someone because your beliefs are at odd with those your having a dialogue with than trying to offend someone whilst making your point. But shoot from the hip stew knows that fine well.
I struggle with with your opinion on my assertion about alot of posters being al la carte catholics. Care to elaborate or do you just smell fart?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
Answers to the three questions GDA
No
No
No
OK so we'll all keep our minds open to the thought that celestial influences possibly came to play in knock and knock only on that day.
The next thought is why in the hell would heavanly forces decide to visit a tacky commercialised village in the west of ireland and put on a little cryptic sun dance for them in the hope that they would interpret that as a sign that god really does exist. The same question still stands for Lourdes, fatima etc etc etc. What has the man got against prods or muslims for that matter? It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny GDA
Care to tell us how you got your eyes open in Lourdes? Bear in mind now the potential for the trickery of the mind before you tell us.
Quote from: stew on October 16, 2009, 09:39:25 PM
I dont believe for one second the claims at Knock, not one second, that said I do believe in God and I could not agree less with the skull and gnevin on this thread. The skull did not threaten anyone however he alluded to the fact that a poster would be slapped if they said what they said out on the street, this could have been taken several ways.
As for the skulls assertion that posters were 'a la carte Catholics' ( nice wee phrase that :() well............... he is talking out of his arse, the problem with non believers sometimes is that they come across as arrogant pricks, sanctimonious arseholes who go out of their way to offend people of faith and this has been done by several poosters on this thread and sadly people bite.
One last thing, just because someone professes to be a Christian does not make them perfect, some of these lads seem to think that if the likes of ardmachaabu write a swear word or say something off colour they are immediately bad Christians or hypocrites, this is wrong, they are fecking people and people are not perfect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHaVUjjH3EI
So you take the bible literally ? You believe everything in the bible? Even the bits that contradict itself?
I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?
Quote from: rossie mad on October 16, 2009, 09:30:49 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2009, 03:42:22 PM
Religion and the whole idea of a god in heaven to alot of people can be a great source of strength to those going through tough times...I get that and I suppose I would not want to shatter or convince people going through those tough times of the absence of god or an afterlife, but that does mean that there is such a thing as a god or a heaven. It is meerly a coping mechanism of the mind at play here and the god in heaven story plays to the mental frialties that I'm sure we all possess and makes understanding of tragedy easier on the mind.
wiki the history of the development of the new testament rossie if your so doubting of my points rather than simply ridiculing
I can tell you that once you have dependants especially that, you do not need a belief in a god to do good things, show good example and possess a strong mental resilience through all the shite this world throws at us. When you realise your children look to you for leadership there is no other way of behaving that I can think of. It's just built into our gene survival instincts. I'm sure for many, religious myths play a part in that whole mechanism but as I've said before that doesn't make the story true.
I would not liken a belief in a diety as showing someone up as stupid or unwell mentally. I would say blinkered would be a better description. Hands over eyes and ears because of the emotional investment paid down as well as the alternative being too difficult to comprehend. If thats where your at then thats where your at. I suggest that you don't read foums where people are able to share their views on such topics in case you read something you don't want to consider.
What the fcuk?
How dare you lecture me on parenting for one and on my (your description) blinkered emotional baggage beliefs?
Who do you think you are? Some kind of fuckin psychiatrist.
I dont need you to tell me how to raise my son or to show him leadership give me a fuckin break.That little person who is waiting at the door every evening for me is the one good thing in my life apart from his mother and i dont need you to tell me how to be fuckin there for him.
Ill manage well enough on that and i dont need the likes of you with your im better than everyone else kinda of shite.
On my blinkered afraid to face the truth baggage i did face the fcukin truth along time ago and im still to this day so i dont you to lecture me on that as well you little p***k.
Ill read this board as many times as i like as well so dont think im going away.
You and J70 give me one shred of reputible evidence that there is no god and ill put my hands up but dont the two of you go around here talking from up on high thrones making a laugh of peoples beliefs with nothong to back it up bar criticisms of meetings that was held thousands of years ago and your lack of understanding of what it takes to have faith.
You mean apart from the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god? Besides, 'tis kind of hard to prove a negative! And the only beliefs I have ridiculed here are the extremes such as people seeing dancing suns or virgin marys in tree stumps or dumb redneck hicks sending all their money to the preacher so he buy a jet to do god's work. I have not ridiculed anyone here for believing in the existence of a god. I have questioned it all right. If you don't like me questioning, that's your business, but don't you've no right to complain about the mere asking of the question.
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 16, 2009, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: redhugh on October 16, 2009, 01:02:50 PM
Surely as a non believer a church burial would leave you resting in eternal hypocrisy. I'd say when the time comes your loved ones would rather make the arrangements that you are happy with ,it's unfair at a time of bereavemnet to burden your loved ones with the decision.
No it's not as simple as that hugh. From a cultural perspective our society is not ready for humanist style burials. Christians appear to have an irrational fear of athiesm from what I can see and they almost align it to devil worship. If I lived in a society where I knew my decendants we're not going to be ostricised or made subjects of ridicule simply as a result of me holding and standing up for my beliefs in such a public way then I would prefer to be buried somewhere where an large tree could be planted beneath me to enjoy the nutrients (I like the thought that) but I couldn't be sure of the support they would get from people who had strong allegience towards the church. They are the ones who have to live on. So until that day comes I'm happy that they bury me whatever way they want to.....I'll not be arguing come the time.
But it's not about what anyone else wants at a time like this, it's about your final wishes being carried out.I know a friend of my mothers who recently had a humanitarian sevice for her husband.All the friends and neighbours came and took part.I know that their was nothing but support for the family.It's about what you believe in ,not what anyone else thinks.Are you saying that you would go down the church route to keep your family happy?If so, surely your convictions can't be too strong.
I would agree with skull1 and its got nothing to do with convictions. Once I'm dead, that's it for me. I'm just a bit of grub for worms and beetle larvae and bacteria and moulds. If doing the church thing with my remains would help my loved ones through my death, then let them go for it. Anyone who knows me well will be well aware of my beliefs. If they want to donate me to medical or forensic science or for organ harvesting, so much the better, and I would probably encourage them to do something like that.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 16, 2009, 10:26:30 PM
Question to the lads taking the athesist/non believer point of view (J70, Skull and the rest).
Where you in Knock when the event was supposed to have happened?
Do you know anyone who was there?
Can you say that the people who where there didn't see something?
For me I find it slightly implausible, but would keep my mind open, as I don't know everything that is out there and I've been to Lourdes and had my eyes opened.
"Slightly implausible"? What happened at Lourdes.
Wasn't at Knock, haven't heard yet that anyone I know was there (my mother's a Mayo woman, so some relatives may well have been) and I obviously cannot say that people didn't at least think they saw something, even if it just the result of looking at the sun or the suggestive power of the herd or the emission of some gas from somewhere with hallucinogenic effects. But, given that there is no evidence that anything like this has ever happened, anywhere, any time, or that there are any celestial beings out there who, if they were so inclined, would decide to pop in for an hour on a Sunday afternoon, appearing to a few and making the sun jump about for others, I think the onus is on those who would make claims that something did happen to prove their case. Until such evidence to the contrary is provided, it is an ironclad assumption to assume that nothing of significance did in fact happen.
I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.
You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 17, 2009, 06:32:41 AM
I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.
You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.
So.......................
You believe in God
You don't believe in all of the bible (this suggests you believe in some (which bits?) which suggests you're christian)
All our beliefs are based on experience (how does this tie in with the bible, have you witnessed something linked to the bible)
You believe we will awaken to a more conscious awareness (how does this tie in to the bible, christianity etc)
You believe in parts of Buddhism
Well that's a mixed bag. Could it be you believe in a higher power because of some of your experiences and you're trying to link it to some some of the most popular organised religions?
Could it possibly be in reality that whatever you experienced has a logical explanation that you haven't yet discovered?
14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.
This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.
It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.
muppet, didn't see you raising this earlier so apologies. I haven't got much time right now so may have to come back to it but will do my best here.
Apparitions of Our Lady are often associated with strange happenings of the sun, don't ask me why because I certainly don't know - I should point out here that there are photos of the people gathered at Cova da Iria in Fatima where the apparitions happened and at the time the sun did strange things in the sky. The photographer who took the photos didn't see anything and cameras weren't exactly top spec back in those days so the photos he took of the sun didn't show anything other than brightness... however from the photos he took of people who saw the sun do strange things, it's obvious they were witnessing something spectacular, the likes of which they had never seen before
There is a train of thought that says you have to actually believe before you see anything - it should also be pointed out that not everyone saw the sun do anything - for some people that day in Cova da Iria was just another day and nothing unusual occurred
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 17, 2009, 06:32:41 AM
I think either way its disrespectful for anyone to dismiss an athetists belief system or a believers belief system. Everyone of our beliefs is based on our life experience. Our perceprtions are based on mind conditioning. Ive some things in my life my mind cannot explain. There is definitly something, something I just cant understand but I dont dismiss it, maybe Im not meant to understand. Higher power, energy is invisble but has a force. We cannot and I dont think we are meant to comprend it. For Athetists are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness, usually pain brings you out of that conditioning. Your mind will dismiss my points immediately because it is conditioned that way. Its just the way your meant to be until your experience of your life changes. I believe we are here to awaken to a more concious awareness. I dont believe you get one shot at life. I do believe in God but my faith does get tested, I dont believe everything the Bible says, as I said already i do believe in reincarnation which is Buddhism. I actually take alot from Buddhism. But I would of never have read up on spirtiuality or religions had I not be forced to by my life experience.
You know the Matrix is a very deep film, "Nobody can be told what the Matrix is you have to experience for yourself" I would say the same for Athestists, ye would have to experience a deeper presence to believe in God. Thats why I dont dismiss yer beliefs, because ye obviously havent experienced life to the required concious level yet and maybe arent meant to. i havent lived your life so how can I dismiss it but none of yee have lived mine so ye cant dismiss mine either. Its relative to the person and let everyone have there beliefs as they are important to that person. Very cruel to try and take it away based on ignorance.
The "required conscious level"?
I don't have a clue what you are talking about, unless your suggestion that pain will bring you there means that you are talking about anguish or grief, in which case I would suggest, again, that it is simple wishful thinking to fall back on the idea of a higher power just because you want to see that person again or you are afraid of what might come after death or your life is so troubled that you "know" there has just got to be something better waiting for you. If that is not what you mean, please explain.
And again, you cannot "take away" someone's faith without their consent.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 17, 2009, 12:20:44 AM
I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?
The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 17, 2009, 06:29:56 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 17, 2009, 12:20:44 AM
I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?
The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.
Nice and wishy washy then.
Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2009, 12:37:17 PM
14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.
This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.
It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.
More importantly, if you were to see the figure of a woman, a vision or whatever you want to call it - how would you know it was the virgin mary? Personally, for me, the one thing that proves that visions of the virgin mary are all in peoples heads is the fact that all descriptions of the virgin are as per the pictures in houses throughout the world. Like the pictures of christ himself these likenesses most likely came about in the middle ages and are almost certainly not the accurate portraits of either Mary or Jesus (for a start milky white skin in the middle east most certainly is not correct). So when someone "sees" Mary how come she looks like the unrealistic paintings?
Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie ;)
Athiest are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness?
If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.
But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.? Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 17, 2009, 09:28:50 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 17, 2009, 12:37:17 PM
14 pages of mudslinging and still no one has suggested how a group of people observing something strange around the sun equates to an appearance by Mary Mother of God.
This question is not a personal attack on anyone's faith, beliefs or their lack of faith.
It is simply asking how one is interpreted as the other.
More importantly, if you were to see the figure of a woman, a vision or whatever you want to call it - how would you know it was the virgin mary? Personally, for me, the one thing that proves that visions of the virgin mary are all in peoples heads is the fact that all descriptions of the virgin are as per the pictures in houses throughout the world. Like the pictures of christ himself these likenesses most likely came about in the middle ages and are almost certainly not the accurate portraits of either Mary or Jesus (for a start milky white skin in the middle east most certainly is not correct). So when someone "sees" Mary how come she looks like the unrealistic paintings?
Brilliant, so obvious yet..........
Quote from: theskull1 on October 18, 2009, 12:35:59 AM
Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie ;)
Athiest are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness?
If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.
But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.? Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?
With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.
For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.
Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness. That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey. As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.
On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.
Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...
Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.
I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 17, 2009, 06:39:07 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on October 17, 2009, 06:29:56 PM
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 17, 2009, 12:20:44 AM
I have to agree that the believers are very defensive. A lot of avoidance of questions too.
Nobody answered me, and others, as to why such miracles happen. Why not a visitation with an actual message rather than just a visitation?
A la carte catholics is a very apt term to use IN GENERAL. And to say that posters on here aren't perfect isn't the point. To commit sins as the believer sees it is fine but to ignore certain "rules" such as sex before marriage etc because it doesn't fit in with modern society isn't an imperfection if it's repeated. So when such a point is put to a believer why not just either defend your position if possible or admit to the fact.
And finally the "were you at Knock" argument. I wasn't at Knock and so I cannot say for sure that nothing appeared. In fact I'd be fairly sure that something was seen and as it was Knock and as there were Christians present it would be convenient if it were a miracle.
I heard a voice in my head once, talking really quietly for about 20 seconds before I realised I had attempted to hang up the phone and failed while the person on the other side had answered and was talking to me. If I hadn't realised I would have said that I can't explain it but that there must be some explanation, not that it was a miracle. If certain individuals didn't realise the same thing they may well have decided that it was a message just as it wasn't readily explainable.
Now please be civil in any replies. Love thy neighbour.
Oh and one last question. What does anyone think happened to the souls of people who lived BC who couldn't have known about the Holy Trinity through no fault of their own?
The official Church teaching is that anyone who has led a life of rectitude according to his or her moral code will be saved. This can be taken to mean that those, even today, who follow their consciences and act accordingly will find favour in the eyes of God even if they chose to practise a different religion.
Nice and wishy washy then.
;D ;D ;D
I'm not saying nuthin'
When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.
The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.
For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc
Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.
Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.
That to me is concious thought
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 19, 2009, 11:35:54 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 18, 2009, 12:35:59 AM
Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie ;)
Athiest are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness?
If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.
But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.? Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?
With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.
For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.
Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness. That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey. As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.
On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.
Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...
Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.
I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.
Why do you perceive things in such a way? I'm not knocking it, in fact I've never even thought of this outlook but where did you get it from? It seemed interesting and then God entered the equation which seemed unnecessary for want of better word.
And also where do you get your beliefs on people being where they're supposed to be (with regards to consciousness) and being ready to see something?
Quote from: Lawrence of Knockbride on October 19, 2009, 01:34:53 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 19, 2009, 11:35:54 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 18, 2009, 12:35:59 AM
Sligonian..please clarify what you mean.......before I do a rossie ;)
Athiest are usually very unconciousness people with little or no awareness?
If anything we're open mined to many more things than most I would say so that comment doesnt square with me.
But if Iassume youre correct and you do sense something that I dont (as I'm sure many christians wont either seeing as it your thoughts we're talking about and no onw elses) what tells you that its all to do with a god and what tells you that it's about us here on earth and judgement on our behaviour when we die.? Thats a big leap. But we got told from a young age what the answer was so it's easy to assign a reason for these feelings we have that wethink are weird at the time. It doesn't really help us gt to the truth does it?
With Athetists and non believers, its my own experience of faith Im referring to. When im in my most unconcious state I would lean towards losing faith in God, My faith is constantly evolving, and I challenge it alot. But in the end when I become concious I have total faith. So if I were concious the whole time I have faith the whole time.
For me Unconcious means, totally reactive like a robot where someone says something to you and go into autopilot, this happens me alot if someone slags off Sligo football for example. And its where the saying it really pushes my button comes from. But really what happens is your mind is conditioned from your past and you react accordingly, now most people are unconcious for long spells, thinking of past and future but never really living in the Now. That is where conciousness exists and where reality exists. This involves you controlling your mind enough to not be so reactive. This is very hard to explain but I have enough awareness to know when Im unconcious but sometimes the conditioning is so strong I havent the strength to snap out of it and react accordingly.
Just for example, when Jesus said "Forgive them for they know not what they do" when our insanity was on show when the Jews let Barrabas go and to crucify Jesus. What he meant to that was they were so unconcious they were just in auto pilot and that was there reaction but wasnt there true concious selves. There minds were conditioned that way so they werent aware of insanity, just like murderer, the adulterer isnt either . To break habits of human behauvior you have to develop your conciousness. That is the purpose of suffering. In suffering God gives you the opportunity to awaken. Thats why we are here not to make money. Only for the suffering in my life I wouldnt be near as concious as am, and im still on the journey. As I said i believe in reincarnation, so therefore if I dont awaken fully in this life I'll be sent back into another human form with differnent parameters to ensure Im given the opportunity to awaken in the next and so on. You the Bible was written in Hebrew, and interpretated by people yrs ago, maybe some of was interpretated wrongly, because I really belive we dont get one shot at life, I would love to know where that was said in Bible for most people to think that.
On the open minded part you mention with regards athesists, that is just mind conditioning that made you that way but I wouldnt question where you are at in terms of conciousness, you are where you are meant to be, IMO im being forced by outside forces to become more concious even though I struggle against it, I guess im being dragged into the kingdom of Heavan kicking and screaming. Im no dali lama but Ive explained it as best I can.
Ive read a few books on Spirituality, even read parts of the God delusion. The power of Now by Eckhart Tolle being the best Spirituality one. Id challenge any athetists to read it. Ive read 3 times now and I get it more and more as I read it. Didnt make much sense the first time but I love reading books about sages, Buddha etc...
Just for the record during that moment of the Vision people individual awareness comes into play on what they see. Some are ready to see others are not. I would include myself in the latter. There is more to this world than meets the eye, that is an absolute truth. I wouldnt believe every vision though.
I have my doubts about this one at Knock on the basis of no one bringing a camera even though they were going to see something as spectacular as they say. I know I would of.
Why do you perceive things in such a way? I'm not knocking it, in fact I've never even thought of this outlook but where did you get it from? It seemed interesting and then God entered the equation which seemed unnecessary for want of better word.
And also where do you get your beliefs on people being where they're supposed to be (with regards to consciousness) and being ready to see something?
My life experience i suppose made me percieve things differently, I looked into myself and the workings of my mind, read a few books, went deeper into myself. Look the whole idea is realise your are not your mind, and that you can control your mind and not other way around.
God enters the equation as a higher power, a energy so to speak. For me God isnt catholic, muslim or whatever, its a statement of the next dimension of our eternal journey. See God the word was invented by humans. God is a symbol to me. Totally out of anyones understanding. I see myself of having a one to one relationship with this symbol of next part of my journey.
I would say there is free will but is there, if a person is like a robot like I explained is there free will, free will only exists if your concious, we are not concious all of the time like the Jews did when they crucified Jesus. There is lots of religious terminalogoy I disagree with it. Like forgiveness, but we were conditioned to do it, Judas had no choice, he was unconcious and thats why it was predicted. Like me on the Bellaghy argument the mayo lads can predict how I react, because im conditioned that way, dont have the strength to become concious on it because it hurts me. But for me to be at peace about it I have to be concious of the habit and mind conditioning before I react. I have to stay in the moment and Ive done it a few times and my awareness fluctuates but it is so peaceful but your mind is conditioned to feed on pain so its a constant battle. On people being where they are meant to be, I believe in reincarnation, so if your a young soul you may have a few earth journeys to go through whereas old souls are at the end, when you become fully awaken here you dont come back. Buddhism is based on this. I do believe all the kids who die early and handicapped souls etc... anyone who born into seriously bad circumstances, I belive they are the teacher souls who choose there human form to bring up the levels of conciousness of the people affected. On being able to see something like a vision, well I can feel my energy flow through me and yoga gets me there very easily and meditation, you can feel whereas I never felt my energy up until a few yrs ago, I was completely unconcious, only cared for material things but now I value things alot differently. Sometimes I can see vibrations around people, sometimes not. But I know im not ready to see a vision, seeing jesus or whatever would shock me too much, maybe thats why the vision was the Sun jumping up and down. I dunno wasnt the original knock apparititon of the Virgin Mary just shadows on a wall?
Are you sure that LSD you took in your twenties didn't help you along the path of understanding Sligonian ;) Far out man :)
Seriously...it's a nice philosphy and I would like to live in that world myself. I can see why others have influenced societies to see our existence and tragedy especially in those terms. For generations thinking this way may have been a great comfort to many many people. But at the end of the day it is still only a mental coping mechanism with no evidence what so ever that there is a spiritual god figure making that belief system true. The fact that a god is the corner stone of that belief systems means that someone like yourself who has invested so much time in such beliefs, it is obviously very difficult for you to consider. But how do you dismiss the fact that there is no evidence (other than your mind telling you and we all know how flawed it can be) that this corner stone is for real?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 19, 2009, 12:56:57 PM
When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.
The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.
For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc
Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.
Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.
That to me is concious thought
You need to seperate religion from God which seems logical to me, I tryed to explain it in last post. The Mass on a Sunday is the most unconcious place on the planet, aload of robots rhyming of stuff with no meaning to them, well in Ireland thats the case. And as you said its designed for power etc,,. and the man fogiving you maybe a criminal, but leave the judgement out of it and go on your own journey. I dont class myself affiliated to any religion. I was born into it, didnt get a choice, but I do believe in Jesus and God but why affiliate Jesus to anything? He was a prophet in my book that could do extroadinary things, he was symbol of God in his human form simple as that. Religion is it just labelled to suit an agenda IMO as you said.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on October 20, 2009, 11:46:18 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 19, 2009, 12:56:57 PM
When I questioned the doctrines of my faith and got a perspective on the the history and how it developed I totally lost my faith. It was a control mechanism over the ages by the rulers of the day to keep their minions in check. A king, queen, lord, duke, bishop, priest was nearer to god than thee, so disrespect them and you were gaurenteeing yourself to an eternal life in hell. Every war had god on their side...i.e minions told to fight in the king and gods name...never mind the fact that the other side were saying similar things to their demographic.
The fact that there are many inspirational people in the church who paint pretty pictures that construct wonderful frameworks for many peoples spiritual beliefs does not however make it truth
You can speak all you want about spirituality sligo..it's a lovely thought...but it's not grounded in the reality of the point of these religion at the controlling level. Read the catholic doctrine from 40-50 years ago to get an understanding of the way the church uses god to define to the everyday classes, what the hierarchy of who is nearer to god than you is, therefore you must respect them totally to find your way to heaven.
For example. The master of the house was seen as being nearer to god than house servants. The house servants only by showing full obeyance to the master of the house could have a relationship with god? Same thing with Doctors, Priests, Bishops etc etc
Now if that isn't mind control I do not know what is? And we all, in our own generation know what the church (and the master of houses) did with that absolute power. Now if the leaders of our churches truely believed in a god, what the fcuk were they doing moving paedophiles round like chess pieces? These men study and ponder theology for years yet (never mind the abusers) they sit on their hands and let known to them paedohiles run roit through communities without lifting a hand.
Once you see the hypocrisy there is no way back. The humanist perspective is a far more grounded approach to living out a fulfilling existence while your here IMO.
That to me is concious thought
You need to seperate religion from God which seems logical to me, I tryed to explain it in last post. The Mass on a Sunday is the most unconcious place on the planet, aload of robots rhyming of stuff with no meaning to them, well in Ireland thats the case. And as you said its designed for power etc,,. and the man fogiving you maybe a criminal, but leave the judgement out of it and go on your own journey. I dont class myself affiliated to any religion. I was born into it, didnt get a choice, but I do believe in Jesus and God but why affiliate Jesus to anything? He was a prophet in my book that could do extroadinary things, he was symbol of God in his human form simple as that. Religion is it just labelled to suit an agenda IMO as you said.
First of all, well done on actually explaining yourself. I won't knock one thing you say as you seem to justify everything you say very well.............except one...............when you say you believe in Jesus what exactly do you mean as you say you are not affiliated to any religion? What I mean is didn't jesus preach what is now christianity? And you see him as a prophet? Do you see him as the son of god?
Historically..yes Jesus did exist. But the writings about jesus's life have to be seen as very dubious when it comes to the accuracy of actual events told in the bible. We all know how stories get embelished as the years go on and within 10-20 years it becomes something it is not. Most of the new testament was not written until 70 years or more after he died. AND it was written in a different part of the world in a different language (so there is also lost (or embelished) in translation factors to consider) so I seriously doubt the accuracy of these documents and the ability of the man that they write about although he obviously had an great influence in his day. The writings in the bible are not even close to the word of god. If god had wanted us to get the message of jesus he would have used a better form of communication than that surely.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 20, 2009, 02:45:27 PM
If god had wanted us to get the message of jesus he would have used a better form of communication than that surely.
But he did, in the form of apparitions. ;)
I hear she is expected back at knock this weekend. The guy who predicted her appearance last time has made this prediction. Is anyone going to go and report the truth back to us?
Apparently she is doing a world tour on Saturday appearing to two orphans in Argentina in the morning, a shepherd in Spain at 3pm and then an evening gig in Knock spinning the sun, making statues move...the usual...
Sounds a bit like the espode of only fools and horses where Delboy would predict whenever the statue in the church would weep.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_Peckham
Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 08:22:00 PM
Apparently she is doing a world tour on Saturday appearing to two orphans in Argentina in the morning, a shepherd in Spain at 3pm and then an evening gig in Knock spinning the sun, making statues move...the usual...
::)
Anyone go?
Anything seen?
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on October 31, 2009, 06:45:09 PM
Anyone go?
Anything seen?
Was in Ballina this morning and the sun came out after a pretty dirty night so maybe she got lost and appear there instead. ;)
Was on the 9 O Clock news just there. Apparently the clergy are totally against these gatherings, but some witnesses claim that at 3pm the sun broke through the clouds and a black circle formed around it, the sun danced in the sky and then came towards them. Others said it was a gimic to get people to come to Knock. Not sure if this guy doing the predicting is any good but he could certainly get a job with Met Eireann!
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 31, 2009, 09:50:08 PM
Was on the 9 O Clock news just there. Apparently the clergy are totally against these gatherings, but some witnesses claim that at 3pm the sun broke through the clouds and a black circle formed around it, the sun danced in the sky and then came towards them. Others said it was a gimic to get people to come to Knock. Not sure if this guy doing the predicting is any good but he could certainly get a job with Met Eireann!
The clergy don't worship the sun you see. But it seems there are people going to Knock who might.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 31, 2009, 07:11:30 PM
Quote from: DrinkingHarp on October 31, 2009, 06:45:09 PM
Anyone go?
Anything seen?
Was in Ballina this morning and the sun came out after a pretty dirty night so maybe she got lost and appear there instead. ;)
Nope, that's true she likes the Ballina region in particular!
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Nope, but God played for us ;)
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Who was man enough to make her do that?
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:12:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Nope, but God played for us ;)
Even with God you weren't the team of the decade.
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:12:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Nope, but God played for us ;)
I thought God could keep his hair!!! :P ;)
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on October 31, 2009, 10:12:54 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 10:11:11 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on October 31, 2009, 10:09:58 PM
Our Lady was in Mayo once. I'm sure she's learnt like most, not to go back.
At least she came here. Was she ever in Tyrone?
Who was man enough to make her do that?
Seemingly she was in Ardboe, Co Tyrone in the early 50s and apparently thousands went to see the apparitions including an old aunt of mine who is long since deceased.
Wednesday, 2 December 2009
Five people who stared at the sun in the hope they might be witnessing religious apparitions are being treated for serious eye damage, a top eye surgeon has revealed.
Reports of pilgrims to Knock seeing the sun dance in the sky and changing colour indicate serious eye damage.
And a number of people who attended the recent religious gathering at the Catholic shrine are reporting symptoms of damaged retinas, said Dr Eamonn O'Donoghue, of University College Hospital in Galway.
Dr O'Donoghue revealed he is treating five patients for serious eye injuries caused by staring at the sun at recent gatherings at Knock organised by Dublin "spiritual healers" Joe Coleman and Keith Henderson.
And he has warned those planning to attend a similar gathering this Saturday that they risk damaging their eyes if they stare at the sun for any length of time.
Dr O'Donoghue's patients were part of the 10,000-strong crowd that visited the Marian Shrine in October in the hope of seeing an apparition.
They have since suffered a serious condition called solar retinopathy, caused by the sun's rays burning into the central part of the eye's retina.
Victims have suffered 50pc vision loss which seriously impairs basic abilities such as reading and driving.
Dr O'Donoghue said that it was "monstrous" to mislead people into thinking that altered vision and effects, such as seeing the sun dance, were a religious apparition when they were classic symptoms of solar retinopathy.
"If it did not have such monstrous effects you could describe it as a cheap circus trick," he said.
Dr O'Donoghue, a renowned opthalmic surgeon who also lectures in NUI Galway and works on vision-aid schemes in developing countries, warned that many others could have suffered similar damage to their eyes. And he fears that children attending the next event will suffer loss of vision as they are particularly vulnerable to sun damage. He warned pilgrims that they could accumulate further problems if they repeated the practice of staring at the sun at the next gathering.
"Any person who has any sort of eye problem would be well advised to give this a very wide berth," he said.
While some of those who have damaged their vision may recover some of their sight in the short term, the damage this has done could cause serious sight problems as they age, Dr O'Donoghue said.
He warned that people would be doing "grievous bodily harm" to themselves if they insisted on staring at the sun in the hope of seeing visions.
Although the Catholic Church warned against attending, some 10,000 pilgrims attended a gathering at Knock on October 31 in the hope of seeing a vision of the Blessed Virgin -- the mother of God according to Catholic doctrine.
Mr Coleman, of Ballyfermot, Dublin, has again predicted an apparition for this week.
The Bishop of Killaloe, Dr Willie Walsh, and the Archbishop of Tuam, Dr Michael Neary, have both appealed to Catholics to stay away from the event.
Mr Coleman was unavailable for comment last night.
Source Irish Independent
Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/knock-miracle--i-could-see-now-i-am-blind-14582942.html#ixzz0YcwPrz5j
Morons! Lets all stare at the sun till we damage our eyes and then claim it's a miracle.
::) ::)
Sure she runs a clinic in Medjugorje, they can nip round after and let her take a look :D
I wish these clowns would stay out of Mayo ::) , and yes I know many of them are home grown clowns :-[
And some of them have access to the interweb
A terrible twist to this story. My thoughts go out to his family, very sad indeed....
I remember when my daughter was born early in the morning I was told to go home from hospital as I could not stay there at night. I nearly fell asleep driving home and just caught myself before I did. I wonder is that what happened here?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/visionary-dies-in-crash-hours-after-first-baby-born-2088009.html
'Visionary' dies in crash hours after first baby born
By Isabel Hurley
Thursday March 04 2010
A self-proclaimed visionary who predicted that Our Lady would appear at Knock died in a road crash yesterday just hours after his wife gave birth to their first child.
Keith Henderson (34) was killed when his Toyota hit a pole in the village of Tarmonbarry, Co Roscommon, on the Longford to Strokestown road at 2.45am. He was pronounced dead at the scene.
Mr Henderson, who worked as a chef and lived in Scramogue near Tarmonbarry, was alone in the car.
The exact cause of the crash is not yet known. The possibility of driver fatigue or frost on the road will be examined as possible causes.
The body of Mr Henderson was taken to Roscommon General Hospital where a post- mortem examination will be carried out.
Mr Henderson's wife, Sharon, had given birth to their first child in Mullingar Hospital just hours before tragedy struck.
The couple moved to Tarmonbarry from Dublin a little over a year ago. Sharon's father, Ronald, also made the area his home and had to break the terrible news to his daughter in hospital.
Mrs Henderson gave birth on Tuesday and insisted on leaving her hospital bed to identify the body of her husband in Roscommon.
Local parish priest Fr Eamon O'Connor said: "This is a terrible tragedy. I was only talking to him last Sunday after Mass and he was very much looking forward to the birth of their baby.
"Keith's faith was very important to him. We were all very shocked to hear of his death in this road accident.
Devout
"Our sympathies, prayers and support go out to them all at this very difficult and sad time.''
Shocked locals described Mr Henderson as "a lovely person who was very devout."
Last year thousands of people gathered at Knock as Keith and spiritual healer Joe Coleman, from Ballyfermot in Dublin, delivered "visionary messages" from Our Lady.
People travelled from all over the country to pray alongside them.
Cllr Tom Crosby, who lives close to the scene of the accident, said: "Our hearts go out to Keith's family and friends, to his wife Sharon and Sharon's father Ronald. Keith was a very nice man to talk to, well-liked and respected by everyone here.
"He was very religious. For this to happen to them at this particular time when their first baby was just born, it's just unbelievable really, It's so very sad and there is a cloud over the entire parish today. Everyone is upset and affected by this terrible tragedy. Our deepest heartfelt sympathies go out to Sharon and Keith's family."
Keith worked as a chef at Gleeson's Townhouse and Restaurant in Roscommon where he was a popular among staff and customers alike.
Gardai appealed to any witnesses to contact Boyle station at 071 9664620 or the Garda Confidential Line at 1800 666111.
Thats feckin heartbreaking fellas.
His poor wife and child.
Terrible tragedy on what should have been the happiest day in that family's lives. At least his final hours were undoubtedly joyous.