China Coronavirus

[PadraicHenryPearse]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

[PadraicHenryPearse]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(21)02243-1/fulltext

More science folks, interesting read.

you are the second person to post this article.. can you explain in layman terms what it is saying?

[Last Man]

All I'll say is that as published by the Lancet it can be accepted as credible and it's an easy read that doesn't require me compress it and potentially lose any nuance within the article. Headline addiction is destroying us.

[grounded]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

[Milltown Row2]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

So basically you think that the vaccine that has been put out has not had any effect or could like this other one you mentioned have serious side effects?

[PadraicHenryPearse]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

I didn't notice it at the time but now read it and it furthers my point, you are using one/a few example.. if you look at all the medicines available that do work as advertised you are focusing on one that didn't. Is there evidence of any firms withholding data on the trials, from reading links posted on here there seems an abundance of information...

do you avoid all medicines and medical treatments because of tamiflu?

[trueblue1234]

I just don't understand the threshold for science for these people. There isn't enough data on the covid vaccines (Despite having more data than any other vaccine in history).
Why are all vaccines/ medical recommendations not given the same treatment. Why are the people who say no to the vaccine still happy to be treated by science and the pharma industry? Where is the logic in that? Or is it just a case that once they are sick, their principles and logic goes out the window due to fear?

[Milltown Row2]

I just don't understand the threshold for science for these people. There isn't enough data on the covid vaccines (Despite having more data than any other vaccine in history).
Why are all vaccines/ medical recommendations not given the same treatment. Why are the people who say no to the vaccine still happy to be treated by science and the pharma industry? Where is the logic in that? Or is it just a case that once they are sick, their principles and logic goes out the window due to fear?

NSAIDs such as ibuprofen may cause ulcers, bleeding, or holes in the stomach or intestine. These problems may develop at any time during treatment, may happen without warning symptoms, and may cause death.

I wonder how many take these dangerous tablets? I'm surprised that they are actually off the shelf drugs

[lenny]

Professor Medley from the SAGE group is saying today that a likely event is hospitals becoming overwhelmed within a month because of Omicron. While it's unpredictable that event is one of the most likely to happen. That means that all other routine treatments, from non serious to extremely serious get put on the back burner. That's why it's extremely important for people to get vaccinated. I can see another lockdown coming up to try to mitigate against the worst possible outcomes. The numbers are doubling every couple of days and even if it may not be as lethal as delta there'll still be huge numbers getting very sick.

[grounded]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

So basically you think that the vaccine that has been put out has not had any effect or could like this other one you mentioned have serious side effects?

Tamiflu is a drug not a vaccine. It actually is a very useful drug used for specific illnesses in the right instance.
      In the case that i highlighted a major pharmaceutical company Roche effectively misled the regulatory bodies, be that independent or governement led into purchasing and using this drug for a disease that it had no beneficial effect and could have caused some serious side effects. All within the law by the way.
      One fairly low level paediatrician questioned this and it took years for the truth to come out.
      I'm not saying this is the case with the covid vaccine or the newer covid drugs but if you are honest with yourself, it would leave you with a little scepticism of the fundamental motives of multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies.
      In answer to your question I actually do think the Covid vaccine is definitely of some use in the fight(in specific circumstances for a certain cohort of the population).
         However as i've said from the start(the lancet also downplayed the effectiveness  of 1st generation vaccines before their launch) its usefulness was overplayed and was marketed as the great panacea to end the pandemic.
       This is clearly not the case.  Perhaps with newer generation vaccines and further research this might change. However given the nature of this particulae novel Coronavirus itself i'm not so sure.
     Anyway i'm repeating the same arguments that i and others have used from from earlier posts. Most people have their minds made up one way or another. There is not much point in me rehashing old ground over and over.
     In this instance i believe we should let people make their own minds up and do whats best for themselves and their own families.
     
     
     

[armaghniac]

Professor Medley from the SAGE group is saying today that a likely event is hospitals becoming overwhelmed within a month because of Omicron. While it's unpredictable that event is one of the most likely to happen. That means that all other routine treatments, from non serious to extremely serious get put on the back burner. That's why it's extremely important for people to get vaccinated. I can see another lockdown coming up to try to mitigate against the worst possible outcomes. The numbers are doubling every couple of days and even if it may not be as lethal as delta there'll still be huge numbers getting very sick.

A disease doubling every two days is dangerous. You might have everything under reasonable control in hospitals and then 4 days later you have 4 times as many and you are overwhelmed. Because people reach hospital 10 days after infection, you can't do anything to stop it once you notice hospital numbers starting to go up.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

So basically you think that the vaccine that has been put out has not had any effect or could like this other one you mentioned have serious side effects?

Tamiflu is a drug not a vaccine. It actually is a very useful drug used for specific illnesses in the right instance.
      In the case that i highlighted a major pharmaceutical company Roche effectively misled the regulatory bodies be that independent or governement led into purchasing and using this drug for a discease that it had no beneficial effect and could have caused some serious side edfects. All within the law by the way.
      One fairly low level paediatrician questioned this and it took years for the truth to come out.
      I'm not saying this is the case with the covid vaccine or the newer covid drugs but if you are honest with yourself, it would leave you with a little scepticism with multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies.
      In answer to your question I actually do think the Covid vaccine is definitely of some use in the fight(in specific circumstances for a certain cohort of the population).
         However as i've said from the start(the lancet also downplayed the effectiveness  of 1st generation vaccines before their launch) its usefulness was overplayed and was marketed as the great panacea to end the pandemic.
       This is clearly not the case.  Perhaps with newer generation vaccines and further research this might change. However given the nature of this Coronavirus itself i'm not so sure.
     Anyway i'm repeating the same arguments that i and others have used from from earlier posts. Most people have their minds made up one way or another. There is not much point in me rehashing old ground over and over.
     In this instance let them make their own minds up and do whats best for themselves and their own families.
     
     
   

I have no idea what point your are making to be honest or your arguments.. tamiflu  isn't unique and I listed a number of other industries which have had similar enough issues with disclosure etc.  I am curious if you take any medicine at all given what you posted...

I thought I read there was a whistle-blower involved in tamiflu which is part of a regulatory framework but might be mistaken.

I also think you created a false narrative around the expectations of Covid vaccine... there was hopes but also acknowledgement of new variants etc. could change their impact.

[grounded]

medical science ok pre covid, medical science not OK post covid...

handwashing OK, mask wearing not OK despite the same medical professional recommending both..

bringing politics into medical science is wholly wrong and increasing happening to justify not following medical advice

Big pharma are well regulated, regulators have gatekeeper and supervision roles and the skulls post just shows that the how the regulator works... you would be hard pushed to find an industry  above reproach.. clothing and footwear and toy making with sweat shops, Facebook and Google with personal data, insurance industry with dual pricing etc, financial industry etc.

Nothing and no industry is above reproach thats the entire point of debating this.

You only have to look at the Tamiflu scandal back during Swine Flu to know this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/business/2014/apr/10/tamiflu-saga-drug-trials-big-pharma

it's being presented as such and that why we have regulators and safeguards in place... just because there was an issue before doesn't mean there will be again... that's the logical of someone posting about regulator fines...

Not sure if you read the article. At pretty much every level Roche tried to prevent the truth coming out about Tamiflu. All perfectly within the law. 
       It wasnt government agencies/regulatory bodies that brought them to account.
        One paediatrician left a comment on an online forum under a Tamiflu review by Cochrane. That was enough to set the ball rolling. It might never have come out.
         Billions of taxpayers money wasted worldwide on a drug that would have been of no benefit to swine flu. Worse, potentially millions of people given a drug of with no benefit for their condition and potential serious side effects.
        One of a number of cases (that we know off).
    Thats why people have serious reservations with current covid vaccination programmes and new Covid drugs produced by Pharmaceutical companies.

So basically you think that the vaccine that has been put out has not had any effect or could like this other one you mentioned have serious side effects?

Tamiflu is a drug not a vaccine. It actually is a very useful drug used for specific illnesses in the right instance.
      In the case that i highlighted a major pharmaceutical company Roche effectively misled the regulatory bodies be that independent or governement led into purchasing and using this drug for a discease that it had no beneficial effect and could have caused some serious side edfects. All within the law by the way.
      One fairly low level paediatrician questioned this and it took years for the truth to come out.
      I'm not saying this is the case with the covid vaccine or the newer covid drugs but if you are honest with yourself, it would leave you with a little scepticism with multi billion dollar pharmaceutical companies.
      In answer to your question I actually do think the Covid vaccine is definitely of some use in the fight(in specific circumstances for a certain cohort of the population).
         However as i've said from the start(the lancet also downplayed the effectiveness  of 1st generation vaccines before their launch) its usefulness was overplayed and was marketed as the great panacea to end the pandemic.
       This is clearly not the case.  Perhaps with newer generation vaccines and further research this might change. However given the nature of this Coronavirus itself i'm not so sure.
     Anyway i'm repeating the same arguments that i and others have used from from earlier posts. Most people have their minds made up one way or another. There is not much point in me rehashing old ground over and over.
     In this instance let them make their own minds up and do whats best for themselves and their own families.
     
     
   

I have no idea what point your are making to be honest or your arguments.. tamiflu  isn't unique and I listed a number of other industries which have had similar enough issues with disclosure etc.  I am curious if you take any medicine at all given what you posted...

I thought I read there was a whistle-blower involved in tamiflu which is part of a regulatory framework but might be mistaken.

I also think you created a false narrative around the expectations of Covid vaccine... there was hopes but also acknowledgement of new variants etc. could change their impact.

You clearly didnt read the article as the facts re: Tamiflu are contained in that.
        Anyway, we are going round in circles. Do whatever you feel necessary to keep your family safe and i will do the same. Thanks

[J70]

I don't need experts on either side to tell me that we don't need to vaccinate wains. Nobody does, there is no evidence or compelling argument to support their vaccination

What point is that?

That he knows better than any experts?

I didn't claim i did. Experts are not calling for mass vaccinations of children , offering but not mandating

They are calling for it in the states.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

I read the article but also didn't limited myself to one article and read some others... which referenced a whistler blower.

it not circles for me as I don't understand your point of view... if you point is to be skeptical of stuff, I am than asking how you live your life as every industry has examples like tamiflu so how do you decide what to be skeptical of and what  not be skeptical off..