China Coronavirus

[Angelo]

My view is that it's the schools which are the major factor in spreading COVID, not the hospitality trade.  It's no coincidence schools returned a month ago and here we are now.  What were they expecting, numbers to fall after the schools went back.

The experts has been flip flopping since day 1 about whether children are spreaders or not.

Which experts are flip flopping?

What sort of nonsense is this question.

Science are puzzled by it. They don't have a firm grasp on any bit of the virus.

Read this.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-53946420

[LCohen]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

[LCohen]

Other half is positive, she's 27, no underlying conditions, doesnt smoke etc.
Symptoms started Monday morning, day 3 now and shes not fit to get out of bed.
This is something you want to avoid if you can help it.

That is how it was for me. The tiredness did improve daily, first 5 days I had to go back to bed around lunchtime each day and it would just come on very suddenly. Hopefully she is ok and if it follows my pattern it does improve significantly after 7 days

Have you had a flu (a proper one rather than your standard, head cold/chest infection) before and how do the symptoms compare?

I have had a proper flu before, she hasn't. From what I remember I couldn't eat with the flu, whereas she is eating although but alot.
Its similar I would say,  but then I know of a late 40s case with no underlying conditions who is in ICU, so it's hard to predict.

There's a lot of people who will get tetchy about comparing it to a flu but I don't think they realise that a flu can have fatal consequences even to fit and healthy people, Christopher Colhoun being a prime recent example of how it can impact a fit and healthy young man.

I don't think there is any adult or adolescent who does not know that the flu can be fatal.

[Angelo]

Other half is positive, she's 27, no underlying conditions, doesnt smoke etc.
Symptoms started Monday morning, day 3 now and shes not fit to get out of bed.
This is something you want to avoid if you can help it.

That is how it was for me. The tiredness did improve daily, first 5 days I had to go back to bed around lunchtime each day and it would just come on very suddenly. Hopefully she is ok and if it follows my pattern it does improve significantly after 7 days

Have you had a flu (a proper one rather than your standard, head cold/chest infection) before and how do the symptoms compare?

I have had a proper flu before, she hasn't. From what I remember I couldn't eat with the flu, whereas she is eating although but alot.
Its similar I would say,  but then I know of a late 40s case with no underlying conditions who is in ICU, so it's hard to predict.

There's a lot of people who will get tetchy about comparing it to a flu but I don't think they realise that a flu can have fatal consequences even to fit and healthy people, Christopher Colhoun being a prime recent example of how it can impact a fit and healthy young man.

I don't think there is any adult or adolescent who does not know that the flu can be fatal.

I know plenty of people who reckon they have a flu 3 or 4 times a year and are in work many times with it.

I think you are being disingenuous.

[Milltown Row2]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

The reason why a lot of clusters are linked to pubs is because they are using track and trace, they are following guidelines set down and are following up on the procedures..

Shops are still open and no track and trace systems seem to be in place, kids will be off for 2 weeks and that means they'll head to the shops! as they don't have to adhere to staying local (2 mile radius)

Punishing the pubs, who have worked very hard to make things safer is wrong

[LCohen]

But there is absolutely nothing to say whatsoever that the consequences of contracting the flu is worse than covid and it won't be known for years so to have a few blowhards on the internet coming out and making such proclamations is absolutely absurd.

Which of the studies in the chart I posted above do you take issue with and what is wrong with their methodology, exactly?

I would say the fact that Covid is a novel virus that little is still known about and it impossible to make definitive conclusions on this. Look at the falling mortality rates that are being returned across Europe, it is defying any sort of logic to be making these types of conclusions at this juncture.

Time will tell us about Covid, we just don't know enough at the minute and it's idiotic to say otherwise.

Have you reviewed those studies yourself?

Quite incredible. Angelo cries time is of the evidence and science needs to get its collective finger out.

When confronted with scientific research he decries it as can't be right as it's too early to say.

Poisonous ignorance

[Jeepers Creepers]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

The reason why a lot of clusters are linked to pubs is because they are using track and trace, they are following guidelines set down and are following up on the procedures..

Shops are still open and no track and trace systems seem to be in place, kids will be off for 2 weeks and that means they'll head to the shops! as they don't have to adhere to staying local (2 mile radius)

Punishing the pubs, who have worked very hard to make things safer is wrong

When you say track and trace, are you saying all pubs take details of everyone who enters?

[LCohen]

Is The flu is harder to catch than this virus?

Does it spread quicker?

I've had the flu once (I was 19) floored me for a few days, aching couldn't lift head off my pillow. Was bad, never had it since and I've been in big groups through the years, working as a teacher for many years and being out socially a lot!  I never got it again thankfully. So was I just lucky?

At present, probably. I don't know.

Some people here clearly think a flu is a headcold or general chest infection. I had the Aussie flu a couple of years back and it was the worst dose of anything I've ever had, floored me for a good week and I'd say it was three or four months before I was fully back to myself in terms of energy etc. Covid will impact people in different ways though, like the flu does.

We live with the flu though, if someone with underlying health conditions or old or in general poor health then it can have extreme consequences. There are a lot of parallels between it and the flu by the effects and the impacts, it's impossible to say if Covid is worse or not at this point. It's a novel virus so with time, you'd expect that we will be better equipped to treat it, deal with it and prevent it.

We'll have a better idea on the severity of Covid in the next few months.

Which people
On here think the flu is a head cold? Name one?

We vaccinate against flu. We don't treat contagious diseases with a vaccine the same as one that we are working on a vaccine. I'm sure you get the logic of that

[Milltown Row2]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

The reason why a lot of clusters are linked to pubs is because they are using track and trace, they are following guidelines set down and are following up on the procedures..

Shops are still open and no track and trace systems seem to be in place, kids will be off for 2 weeks and that means they'll head to the shops! as they don't have to adhere to staying local (2 mile radius)

Punishing the pubs, who have worked very hard to make things safer is wrong

When you say track and trace, are you saying all pubs take details of everyone who enters?

My local would test your temp, and take details at the the door, booking for food and they have your details already. I thought this was happening ? No?

There was a guy on Nolan last night, bar owner who was doing the same also, be very lazy and inconsiderate if the bars were not doing that.. look its not 100% best method but people would need to be very honest with themselves and react to the problem if they were contacted!

[Angelo]

But there is absolutely nothing to say whatsoever that the consequences of contracting the flu is worse than covid and it won't be known for years so to have a few blowhards on the internet coming out and making such proclamations is absolutely absurd.

Which of the studies in the chart I posted above do you take issue with and what is wrong with their methodology, exactly?

I would say the fact that Covid is a novel virus that little is still known about and it impossible to make definitive conclusions on this. Look at the falling mortality rates that are being returned across Europe, it is defying any sort of logic to be making these types of conclusions at this juncture.

Time will tell us about Covid, we just don't know enough at the minute and it's idiotic to say otherwise.

Have you reviewed those studies yourself?

Quite incredible. Angelo cries time is of the evidence and science needs to get its collective finger out.

When confronted with scientific research he decries it as can't be right as it's too early to say.

Poisonous ignorance

Not at all.

I think it's insanity to be waiting years for science to figure out something that basic questions are causing them severe confusion.

Science's track record on solving infectious diseases is not good so people advocating us hiding under our beds until such time as science finds the solution should be put away in straight jackets.

The most important thing now is what the data says over the next few months about fatality levels, if the trends continues of fatality levels dropping hugely then it's something we can live with. We live with flu, something science has never been able to eradicate.

[Angelo]

Is The flu is harder to catch than this virus?

Does it spread quicker?

I've had the flu once (I was 19) floored me for a few days, aching couldn't lift head off my pillow. Was bad, never had it since and I've been in big groups through the years, working as a teacher for many years and being out socially a lot!  I never got it again thankfully. So was I just lucky?

At present, probably. I don't know.

Some people here clearly think a flu is a headcold or general chest infection. I had the Aussie flu a couple of years back and it was the worst dose of anything I've ever had, floored me for a good week and I'd say it was three or four months before I was fully back to myself in terms of energy etc. Covid will impact people in different ways though, like the flu does.

We live with the flu though, if someone with underlying health conditions or old or in general poor health then it can have extreme consequences. There are a lot of parallels between it and the flu by the effects and the impacts, it's impossible to say if Covid is worse or not at this point. It's a novel virus so with time, you'd expect that we will be better equipped to treat it, deal with it and prevent it.

We'll have a better idea on the severity of Covid in the next few months.

Which people
On here think the flu is a head cold? Name one?

We vaccinate against flu. We don't treat contagious diseases with a vaccine the same as one that we are working on a vaccine. I'm sure you get the logic of that

You keep asking nonsense questions like which people which leads to me think you are not capable of anything close to an intelligent debate. Why don't you conduct an audit.

Here's an article for your world of ignorance and naivety.

https://www.health.com/condition/cold-flu-sinus/parents-dont-take-flu-seriously

The flu kills every year, vaccination or no vaccination. What is the acceptable level of risk? Why don't we go into lockdown every winter over the consequences of seasonal flu? Maybe you are now saying we should? At what cost does the world become consumed by Covid?

[LCohen]

Does the flu cripple the health service in the same way as Covid?

That's not the same as "Do people die from it?" Yes, they do but are they coming into hospitals in the same numbers meaning that beds and treatment aren't available to anyone else?

Statistically hospital beds come under increasing pressure every winter from the flu.

Clearly there is an acceptable level of death with the seasonal flu or everything would shut down, so I'm asking you what you deem an acceptable level of death with Covid? Or are we meant to sit on our hands until science solves it, which could be years, which could be never.

I don't think there is one. People with flu & Covid will be treated and the health service will try to save their lives. Unfortunately people will still die of both.
There is an attempt, via lockdown etc to lower Covid numbers in order to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
The flu doesn't overwhelm the hospitals in the same way therefore a lockdown is not seen to be required for it.

Maybe not in the same way but the flu does overwhelm hospitals at Winter and the health service does become strained and deaths do occur due to this and this is deemed an acceptable level.

So back to my question, what is an acceptable level of death. Lockdown has huge negative drawbacks to people's livelihoods, the economy and wider social and mental health problems so at what point do we say this lockdown and restrictions are counter-productive on a societal wide basis? That's a very important discussion those in power need to be discussing now.

We have been told again and again by scientists and the WHO that there is no silver bullet for Covid, it's going to be here for the medium to long terms so we simply have to learn to live with it. Some countries are making a much better fist of it that others.

Cases on the rise are going to be an inevitability.

There seems to be conflicting problems on both sides of the border - here it is the economic repercussions of quelling the spread, down south it's their dysfunctional health service being unable to cope. I think we probably have 4x the level of Covid transmissions up here at the minute that they have down south.

It would be true to say that at points during the winter the health system is overwhelmed. It's is also true to say that the flu is a factor and some years a massive problem. It depends on the strain, the efficacy of the latest vaccination and even how early in the winter the flu arrives.

But there are wider factors at play over the winter due to the cold (the temperature, not the illness).

[Angelo]

Does the flu cripple the health service in the same way as Covid?

That's not the same as "Do people die from it?" Yes, they do but are they coming into hospitals in the same numbers meaning that beds and treatment aren't available to anyone else?

Statistically hospital beds come under increasing pressure every winter from the flu.

Clearly there is an acceptable level of death with the seasonal flu or everything would shut down, so I'm asking you what you deem an acceptable level of death with Covid? Or are we meant to sit on our hands until science solves it, which could be years, which could be never.

I don't think there is one. People with flu & Covid will be treated and the health service will try to save their lives. Unfortunately people will still die of both.
There is an attempt, via lockdown etc to lower Covid numbers in order to stop the hospitals from being overwhelmed.
The flu doesn't overwhelm the hospitals in the same way therefore a lockdown is not seen to be required for it.

Maybe not in the same way but the flu does overwhelm hospitals at Winter and the health service does become strained and deaths do occur due to this and this is deemed an acceptable level.

So back to my question, what is an acceptable level of death. Lockdown has huge negative drawbacks to people's livelihoods, the economy and wider social and mental health problems so at what point do we say this lockdown and restrictions are counter-productive on a societal wide basis? That's a very important discussion those in power need to be discussing now.

We have been told again and again by scientists and the WHO that there is no silver bullet for Covid, it's going to be here for the medium to long terms so we simply have to learn to live with it. Some countries are making a much better fist of it that others.

Cases on the rise are going to be an inevitability.

There seems to be conflicting problems on both sides of the border - here it is the economic repercussions of quelling the spread, down south it's their dysfunctional health service being unable to cope. I think we probably have 4x the level of Covid transmissions up here at the minute that they have down south.

It would be true to say that at points during the winter the health system is overwhelmed. It's is also true to say that the flu is a factor and some years a massive problem. It depends on the strain, the efficacy of the latest vaccination and even how early in the winter the flu arrives.

But there are wider factors at play over the winter due to the cold (the temperature, not the illness).

But we accept whatever threats and levels of risk seasonal flu brings with it.

At what level do we accept Covid?

[GetOverTheBar]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

The reason why a lot of clusters are linked to pubs is because they are using track and trace, they are following guidelines set down and are following up on the procedures..

Shops are still open and no track and trace systems seem to be in place, kids will be off for 2 weeks and that means they'll head to the shops! as they don't have to adhere to staying local (2 mile radius)

Punishing the pubs, who have worked very hard to make things safer is wrong

Hard to argue with MTR2 here. It looks like they are happy to go after the easy targets. Hairdressers, Beauticians and Bars completely scapegoated and lots will be ruined for good.

If someone leaves a bar and goes to a house party - that is not the Bars fault, nor is it the beautician who might have dolled them up for their night out (I'm assuming none of you good gents don't go to that bother)

Now it might stop those who aren't prepared for an impromptu few beers on a Saturday evening when they are out of luck but it will not address the core issue of people meeting and drinking in houses that are planned and that is, their night out.

[johnnycool]

The best one of the lot for me is the no selling beer after 8pm in shops. Literally pointless. Almost like one can't go and buy it for the 8 hours prior.

Apparently not. One of the earlier Welsh regional restrictions was in part based upon evidence established via test, track and trace. They were able to identify links to clusters from people coming out of pubs and going on to other pubs or back to houses via the off licence.

Ballbags are going to be ballbags even if the offy shuts at 8pm.

From my experience some pubs have made a genuine effort but others haven't and have ruined it for the rest.

There's shortsighted ballbag business owners as well.