What an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
Quote from: Square Ball on January 10, 2024, 04:04:41 PMWhat an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
Think the bigger scandal in all of this is, why the feck it took a TV show to get them to do something about stuff they all knew anyway. Shows the pure ineptitude and worse of these people supposedly running the place.
Quote from: Square Ball on January 10, 2024, 04:04:41 PMWhat an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
Not sure why it took so long & why it took a tv show.
Nick Wallis, the bbc journalist who uncovered the story (about ten years ago) did a podcast a few years ago about it & it's well worth a listen. He also published a book about it a few years ago, none of this is new.
Quote from: NAG1 on January 10, 2024, 04:07:57 PMQuote from: Square Ball on January 10, 2024, 04:04:41 PMWhat an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
Think the bigger scandal in all of this is, why the feck it took a TV show to get them to do something about stuff they all knew anyway. Shows the pure ineptitude and worse of these people supposedly running the place.
It's not even that the software was faulty, it was obviously, it's how the PO treated the sub-postmasters when they reported issues (as thieves).
They knew hundreds, maybe thousands of them were having issues with Horizon fixing a correct balance each day but each individual sub-postmaster was told no other staff had issues with it so they must be on the rob.
Quote from: NAG1 on January 10, 2024, 04:07:57 PMQuote from: Square Ball on January 10, 2024, 04:04:41 PMWhat an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
Think the bigger scandal in all of this is, why the feck it took a TV show to get them to do something about stuff they all knew anyway. Shows the pure ineptitude and worse of these people supposedly running the place.
This is a decade, if not longer scandal and at the heart of it was the privatisation of the Post Office, the tendering out of a software project to Fujitsu who have donated generously to the Tory part, but all parties have to take responsibility at some point in this fiasco.
There are so many levels to this.
Fujitsu continue to get contracts with government. Fujitsu have ties with the government.
Government say they have been championing the PO workers cause for years and there's no evidence of it.
There is now a case of fraud against the PO. They recouped money from people that was basically akin to theft as they weren't owed it.
To top it off the tories made it nigh on impossible to get compensation for wrongful prosecution so very few here will get anything.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 10, 2024, 04:16:24 PMThere are so many levels to this.
Fujitsu continue to get contracts with government. Fujitsu have ties with the government.
Government say they have been championing the PO workers cause for years and there's no evidence of it.
There is now a case of fraud against the PO. They recouped money from people that was basically akin to theft as they weren't owed it.
To top it off the tories made it nigh on impossible to get compensation for wrongful prosecution so very few here will get anything.
Gillian Mc Keegans ( Secretary of State for Education) in Westminster is married to the CEO of...... Fujitsu!
Quote from: Delgany 2nds on January 10, 2024, 05:17:34 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on January 10, 2024, 04:16:24 PMThere are so many levels to this.
Fujitsu continue to get contracts with government. Fujitsu have ties with the government.
Government say they have been championing the PO workers cause for years and there's no evidence of it.
There is now a case of fraud against the PO. They recouped money from people that was basically akin to theft as they weren't owed it.
To top it off the tories made it nigh on impossible to get compensation for wrongful prosecution so very few here will get anything.
Gillian Mc Keegans ( Secretary of State for Education) in Westminster is married to the CEO of...... Fujitsu!
More Tory crocodile tears, it's a big trough and plenty of pigs to feed.
It's coming up to a General Election and the Tories are getting buried so they'll be all over this as the big caring party even though they've known about it for years. The TV show made it a populist story so it's manna from heaven to the government.
That's exactly what's happening here.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 10, 2024, 04:16:24 PMThere are so many levels to this.
Fujitsu continue to get contracts with government. Fujitsu have ties with the government.
Government say they have been championing the PO workers cause for years and there's no evidence of it.
There is now a case of fraud against the PO. They recouped money from people that was basically akin to theft as they weren't owed it.
To top it off the tories made it nigh on impossible to get compensation for wrongful prosecution so very few here will get anything.
I'd say there's an even worse layer than that, the PO bosses absolutely knew the software was faulty as they were told that time and time again yet they persisted with cover-up with the prosecution and persecution of the office managers.
Also made the victims think it wasn't widespread and they were the only ones I read
Quote from: Square Ball on January 10, 2024, 04:04:41 PMWhat an absolute f**k up, and just another miscarriage of justice on a biblical scale, and the Brits have a good few. Never have I know a TV series to promote such a backlash. Hope to god they get justice.
Why have Fujitsu not been sued over this foe faulty software?
The Horizon system was tested and accepted (as fit for purpose) by the Post Office. The PO would have expected the new finance system to unearth a number of fraudulent practices.
None of the parties were interested until a week ago, they have all known about it for years - a Tory MP, Arbuthnot, has been helping them for years get some sort of justice & brought it to select committees
I remember a report about this years ago...
I thought all this was well sorted before the tv programme
It's bizarre that it's taken this long, over 20 years for some to get any recognition and I suppose an election to actually get this up and running
There was a guy on today who was brought in for both parties to forensically examine the systems
He filed his report and the post office relieved him of his duties and scrapped his evidence...
Everything bought and paid for by the tax payer
I never knew that the post office has the powers to bring people to court without even involving the police.
And another thing, Where are the auditors in all this, what is the actual point of them.
Do we know how many people from the north were caught up in this.
Hard watch that the night. You wonder how managers in the post office high tier, at the time don't see court for withholding information.
Quote from: Hereiam on January 10, 2024, 10:55:52 PMI never knew that the post office has the powers to bring people to court without even involving the police.
And another thing, Where are the auditors in all this, what is the actual point of them.
Do we know how many people from the north were caught up in this.
I think it's in the BBC news article. There's a handful I think. There's a woman from Tyrone interviewed in it and it's pretty shocking.
Yeah there is a chain of things here. Where were the auditors should be a big question. If you read the BBC article with the Tyrone woman in it she talks about the auditors. It's a shocking read as she said she kept paying money in then got audited and they said they were due 6k. How much money must the PO owe and that's before they should be compensating people.
Surely when they (the Post Office) tallied up their own figures at the years end that for the stock and out goings and various other things that the figures were not matching and that they had more that they should have?
It's bizarre that there wasn't whistle blowers long before the post masters got together as a group to highlight their ongoing cases!
A lot of families and siblings had to deal with the 'shame' of having people think that they stole. One woman today was on and she tried to 'fix' the books because every week there was a shortfall and after paying it with her own money couldn't do it and used money from other parts to pay it!
Went to prison, and wore a tag for few months!
That said there will be a few ones looking claims because someone at school said "your ma's a thief"
The reality is any compensation that comes from this can never recompense the suffering these people have been through. This is one of the most monumental f**k ups in British legal history and that's saying something!!!!
Many pleaded guilty and paid the "shortfall" rather than risk trial and imprisonment.
How many more quietly paid multiple small "shortfalls" to regularly balance the books and are out of pocket with no record of the money lost.
https://arethebritsatitagain.org/
Quote from: LeoMc on January 11, 2024, 09:49:00 AMMany pleaded guilty and paid the "shortfall" rather than risk trial and imprisonment.
How many more quietly paid multiple small "shortfalls" to regularly balance the books and are out of pocket with no record of the money lost.
Watched that Panorama program last night on this, horrific what these people were put through and all along both Fujitsu and the Post Office executives knew there were issues with this Horizon software which incidentally during the tendering process came bottom in 7 of the 9 criteria set out. The one they did top was cost.
Surely criminal proceedings need to be initiated against those who willingly lied in court or allowed others to willingly lie in court to protect the "brand".
One lad committed suicide by walking in front of a bus over being wrongly accused of stealing FFS.
Anyone here work with Fujitsu? Bound to be a few nerds here who either currently work there or worked for them?
Fujitso seem to be under a lot of pressure about the scandal. Are they just not the hardware?
Couple programs on last night was only half listening but heard one bit where a Fujitsu employee went in and fiddled figures..... How this isn't an out and out crime is more than I know
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on January 11, 2024, 11:21:47 AMCouple programs on last night was only half listening but heard one bit where a Fujitsu employee went in and fiddled figures..... How this isn't an out and out crime is more than I know
They were "fixing" bugs on live systems and in doing so messing up the figures but were telling the sub post masters that no one else had access to their terminals.
I only heard this bit today. Is there an audit trail for who did what? if there is they should be prosecuted but there are quite a few layers to an audit trail.
I work in software and if anyone asked me to do well let's just say it wouldn't be getting done.
to what lengths did Fujitsu go to cover this up? the series shows one of them (the Union Rep) visiting the office but the sign in sheet somehow vanishes, but he discovers an old email, and it wasn't a live environment, it was a test one. tip if an Everest sized iceberg.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 11, 2024, 11:40:51 AMQuote from: quit yo jibbajabba on January 11, 2024, 11:21:47 AMCouple programs on last night was only half listening but heard one bit where a Fujitsu employee went in and fiddled figures..... How this isn't an out and out crime is more than I know
They were "fixing" bugs on live systems and in doing so messing up the figures but were telling the sub post masters that no one else had access to their terminals.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/2e/2e639765de8370ccc4b625c65b587c7267f92fd5a3c063bd049ce500974ce119.jpg)
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 11, 2024, 12:16:39 PMI only heard this bit today. Is there an audit trail for who did what? if there is they should be prosecuted but there are quite a few layers to an audit trail.
I work in software and if anyone asked me to do well let's just say it wouldn't be getting done.
Yes but they logged in under the postmaster's credentials.
Could surely grab the ip address and track it back though. Difficult but not impossible.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 11, 2024, 09:29:48 AMThe reality is any compensation that comes from this can never recompense the suffering these people have been through. This is one of the most monumental f**k ups in British legal history and that's saying something!!!!
Yes great harm was done but it does lag a long way behind the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7, considering there you had a determined conspiracy, a triumvirate of police, judiciary and state with all three being pumped by the media to a prejudiced public. I would not put the post office alongside that miscarriage of justice, it's not even on the same page.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 11, 2024, 08:40:56 PMCould surely grab the ip address and track it back though. Difficult but not impossible.
The events happened 20 years ago though, that level of detail is probably long gone.
Yeah probably right. I work in software and I just can't fathom going in as an engineer and doing that.
Quote from: Main Street on January 12, 2024, 12:57:49 AMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 11, 2024, 09:29:48 AMThe reality is any compensation that comes from this can never recompense the suffering these people have been through. This is one of the most monumental f**k ups in British legal history and that's saying something!!!!
Yes great harm was done but it does lag a long way behind the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7, considering there you had a determined conspiracy, a triumvirate of police, judiciary and state with all three being pumped by the media to a prejudiced public. I would not put the post office alongside that miscarriage of justice, it's not even on the same page.
What happened with the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7 and others, is a different story entirely. It was brutal and unashamedly forever be seen has an attack on Irish people who were living in the UK at the time by as you say the media, police and government.
I think what the media are spouting here with the Horizon cases is the scale of how many convictions the government led/payed Post Office cases where taken/convicted against innocent people
Also, the fact that it was old dears and lovely gents in the chocolate box villages of England especially who were the victims cuts to their self-image.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 12, 2024, 09:15:00 AMQuote from: Main Street on January 12, 2024, 12:57:49 AMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 11, 2024, 09:29:48 AMThe reality is any compensation that comes from this can never recompense the suffering these people have been through. This is one of the most monumental f**k ups in British legal history and that's saying something!!!!
Yes great harm was done but it does lag a long way behind the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7, considering there you had a determined conspiracy, a triumvirate of police, judiciary and state with all three being pumped by the media to a prejudiced public. I would not put the post office alongside that miscarriage of justice, it's not even on the same page.
What happened with the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7 and others, is a different story entirely. It was brutal and unashamedly forever be seen has an attack on Irish people who were living in the UK at the time by as you say the media, police and government.
I think what the media are spouting here with the Horizon cases is the scale of how many convictions the government led/payed Post Office cases where taken/convicted against innocent people
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 12, 2024, 09:15:00 AMQuote from: Main Street on January 12, 2024, 12:57:49 AMQuote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 11, 2024, 09:29:48 AMThe reality is any compensation that comes from this can never recompense the suffering these people have been through. This is one of the most monumental f**k ups in British legal history and that's saying something!!!!
Yes great harm was done but it does lag a long way behind the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7, considering there you had a determined conspiracy, a triumvirate of police, judiciary and state with all three being pumped by the media to a prejudiced public. I would not put the post office alongside that miscarriage of justice, it's not even on the same page.
What happened with the Guildford 4 and Maguire 7 and others, is a different story entirely. It was brutal and unashamedly forever be seen has an attack on Irish people who were living in the UK at the time by as you say the media, police and government.
I think what the media are spouting here with the Horizon cases is the scale of how many convictions the government led/payed Post Office cases where taken/convicted against innocent people
it's come at a funny time too with elections which changes the dynamic of it entirely.
There's now smears on starmer with how he should have stopped this and tories saying they've been campaigning for years when they're lying through their teeth(their lips are moving which is how you can tell).
There's an interesting clip doing the rounds with Ian Hislop going mad on a tory MP Jake Berry about it. Hislop has apparently been pushing this for a long time in private eye. He got very mad with Berry - not surprising tbh as he's another tory low life like the rest of them who cares not one jot about any human being other than himself.
Quote from: johnnycool on January 11, 2024, 11:40:51 AMQuote from: quit yo jibbajabba on January 11, 2024, 11:21:47 AMCouple programs on last night was only half listening but heard one bit where a Fujitsu employee went in and fiddled figures..... How this isn't an out and out crime is more than I know
They were "fixing" bugs on live systems and in doing so messing up the figures but were telling the sub post masters that no one else had access to their terminals.
We admit to all our bugs (too many unfortunately) but we always release the 'fix' into the customer's test system prior to putting it into Live. That's the norm for most software companies.
Were they fixing the underlying data or the bugs though? (It's bad practise alright to fix bugs but to "fix" financial data is tbh outright fraud)
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 12, 2024, 04:13:33 PMWere they fixing the underlying data or the bugs though? (It's bad practise alright to fix bugs but to "fix" financial data is tbh outright fraud)
But if the data in production is incorrect then the only way to correct that is to "fix" it in production.
Surely you need an audit trail though and surely there is some kind of process to go through before you change it?
Most of the bugs or so called glitches (I've read about) in the system were things that could have been handled by an experience team. They were not gaps in requirements or processes but simple stuff with existing software design patterns for the root causes.
This is high profile, like Boeing Max MCAS, and rightly everyone is going wtf. I could give multiple examples of where similar amateur shite is happening but you never read about it just the impact doesn't result in death or jail. The finance industry is due a high profile case at some point as some of the stuff I've witnessed is unreal.
The big one for me was how certain people have elevated privileged's or the ability to impersonate another system user, and all without any traceability to do stuff in production systems.
The question of who polices the police comes up all the time in sys admin. The answer is usually no-one until something goes tits up and it is then forced upon an organisation.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder
Could be opportunism but hard to ignore fact that the financial element of the prosecution's claimed motive now looks highly questionable.
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 12, 2024, 04:55:32 PMSurely you need an audit trail though and surely there is some kind of process to go through before you change it?
Exactly, it's understandable that live data needed to be changed to correct it as a result of a bug, but the changes should have to go through an approval process that can be audited.
Even if the changes can be tracked on the live systems themselves after all this time, the change approval process/system should still have a record of the changes.
Quote from: gallsman on January 13, 2024, 09:24:58 AMhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder
Could be opportunism but hard to ignore fact that the financial element of the prosecution's claimed motive now looks highly questionable.
That guy beat his wife to death, she was having affairs and he's killed her.. the fact that he got up at 4.30 am started working, didn't hear anyone bludgeoning his wife upstairs and 2 minutes after the safe was opened phoned 999 ..
Stating that the guy killed his wife shortly after he got up outta bed 4.30, lay in wait till 9! Then robbed him, bear in mind he was robbed a year earlier and no one convicted.
It stinks
Quote from: Tony Baloney on January 12, 2024, 08:13:06 PMThe question of who polices the police comes up all the time in sys admin. The answer is usually no-one until something goes tits up and it is then forced upon an organisation.
The answer is the person with enough money. Anyone who thinks this is a solely British problem is greatly mistaken.
Quote from: gallsman on January 13, 2024, 09:24:58 AMhttps://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder
Could be opportunism but hard to ignore fact that the financial element of the prosecution's claimed motive now looks highly questionable.
One difference is that this was a police investigation. The other investigations and prosecutions were by the PO themselves.
Have watched the first 3 episodes. Incredible what went on. We need to see not only the PO but Fujitsu held to account including prosecutions.