Arlene's bigotry shines through

Started by StGallsGAA, February 14, 2018, 01:13:21 PM

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imtommygunn

There are no preconditions on restoring power at stormont you know :o

seafoid

Very good analysis by Denis Bradley

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/denis-bradley-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-unionism-1.3398989

"The Rev John Dunlop, once moderator of the Presbyterian Church, wrote more than 20 years ago: "We are a people who live behind spiritual, political and ecclesiastical ramparts. We behave like batsmen facing hostile fast bowling on an uneven pitch: more concerned to survive than to win the match; playing for a draw at best; always defensive; seldom taking the initiative."

He also said at the time of the IRA ceasefire that the unionist community was not ready, prepared or happy with the beginning peace. He believed it was psychologically prepared to endure the violence rather than engage with republicans."

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

stew

Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
Very good analysis by Denis Bradley

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/denis-bradley-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-unionism-1.3398989

"The Rev John Dunlop, once moderator of the Presbyterian Church, wrote more than 20 years ago: "We are a people who live behind spiritual, political and ecclesiastical ramparts. We behave like batsmen facing hostile fast bowling on an uneven pitch: more concerned to survive than to win the match; playing for a draw at best; always defensive; seldom taking the initiative."

He also said at the time of the IRA ceasefire that the unionist community was not ready, prepared or happy with the beginning peace. He believed it was psychologically prepared to endure the violence rather than engage with republicans."

John Dunlop is a very astute man, and the unionist/loyalist parties sow fear and negativity to their constituents and they in turn, believe the lies and bile they are fed, perpetual negativity is the best they can hope for, how sad and ignorant is that!
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

yellowcard

Quote from: stew on February 22, 2018, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 09:35:45 AM
Very good analysis by Denis Bradley

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/denis-bradley-how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-unionism-1.3398989

"The Rev John Dunlop, once moderator of the Presbyterian Church, wrote more than 20 years ago: "We are a people who live behind spiritual, political and ecclesiastical ramparts. We behave like batsmen facing hostile fast bowling on an uneven pitch: more concerned to survive than to win the match; playing for a draw at best; always defensive; seldom taking the initiative."

He also said at the time of the IRA ceasefire that the unionist community was not ready, prepared or happy with the beginning peace. He believed it was psychologically prepared to endure the violence rather than engage with republicans."

John Dunlop is a very astute man, and the unionist/loyalist parties sow fear and negativity to their constituents and they in turn, believe the lies and bile they are fed, perpetual negativity is the best they can hope for, how sad and ignorant is that!

Good analysis, the politicians control the working class by whipping them into a frenzy if they perceive of any threat to their Britishness. Then you have the Jim Allister show...errr sorry Stephen Nolan which is like Jerry Springer laden with extremist outside commentators such as Bryson, Dudley Edwards, McCaulsand etc and which has the sole aim of increasing its ratings irrespective of whether or not it stokes the flames or whips the masses up even more. Unionism has always needed to feel scared and under threat in order to survive, it is constantly in damage limitation mode simply trying to delay the inevitable end game for as long as possible. 

seafoid

Another interesting bit from the article

"The nationalist was the most annoyed and frustrated. He was particularly angry that unionism seemed content to economically withdraw into itself and into the eastern counties of the North.

He vividly described the economic waste land that exists on the western side of a line that stretches from Coleraine, bulging out to encompassing most of Tyrone and reaching the southern most point of Fermanagh. His most insightful description was that on their side of the line they had two airports and two universities.

The other businessman was less colourful but even more interesting. Born into a unionist background and a business that straddled the Border, his thesis was that Irish unionism was on its last legs.

Because of the changing demographics he argued that all that was needed was to convince a small number of unionists that Irish unity was the future. He was adamant that the number of unionists persuadable to that opinion was growing, and that the wrong people to do the persuading was Sinn Féin.

The argument as to who are the right people to do the persuading is for another day in the not too distant future, but the substance of this businessman's argument is being heard more often in unexpected quarters."
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

johnneycool

Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 10:43:22 AM
Another interesting bit from the article

"The nationalist was the most annoyed and frustrated. He was particularly angry that unionism seemed content to economically withdraw into itself and into the eastern counties of the North.

He vividly described the economic waste land that exists on the western side of a line that stretches from Coleraine, bulging out to encompassing most of Tyrone and reaching the southern most point of Fermanagh. His most insightful description was that on their side of the line they had two airports and two universities.

The other businessman was less colourful but even more interesting. Born into a unionist background and a business that straddled the Border, his thesis was that Irish unionism was on its last legs.

Because of the changing demographics he argued that all that was needed was to convince a small number of unionists that Irish unity was the future. He was adamant that the number of unionists persuadable to that opinion was growing, and that the wrong people to do the persuading was Sinn Féin.

The argument as to who are the right people to do the persuading is for another day in the not too distant future, but the substance of this businessman's argument is being heard more often in unexpected quarters."

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

The impact of Brexit could have a telling effect on this particular grouping, but to answer the question as to who should be doing the persuading it really has to be the sitting Irish Government of the day.

Neither FF and FG have grasped this particular nettle, only playing around the fringes of being true nationalists and allowing the Shinners to own this space.

If either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

seafoid

Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 10:43:22 AM
Another interesting bit from the article

"The nationalist was the most annoyed and frustrated. He was particularly angry that unionism seemed content to economically withdraw into itself and into the eastern counties of the North.

He vividly described the economic waste land that exists on the western side of a line that stretches from Coleraine, bulging out to encompassing most of Tyrone and reaching the southern most point of Fermanagh. His most insightful description was that on their side of the line they had two airports and two universities.

The other businessman was less colourful but even more interesting. Born into a unionist background and a business that straddled the Border, his thesis was that Irish unionism was on its last legs.

Because of the changing demographics he argued that all that was needed was to convince a small number of unionists that Irish unity was the future. He was adamant that the number of unionists persuadable to that opinion was growing, and that the wrong people to do the persuading was Sinn Féin.

The argument as to who are the right people to do the persuading is for another day in the not too distant future, but the substance of this businessman's argument is being heard more often in unexpected quarters."

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

The impact of Brexit could have a telling effect on this particular grouping, but to answer the question as to who should be doing the persuading it really has to be the sitting Irish Government of the day.

Neither FF and FG have grasped this particular nettle, only playing around the fringes of being true nationalists and allowing the Shinners to own this space.

If either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?
It would have to be planned to take advantage of the positives.  The status of the unionist population would have to he clear. If it was done properly it could fly 
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

armaghniac

Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

This isn't easily achieved because the 6 counties is so unproductive.


QuoteIf either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

See above. People in the 26 counties would welcome unity, but not having to pay to fix up the place. The British should be expected to leave the place in working order so that people can concentrate on the politics, not funding the place.

Pre Brexit I think the feeling generally would have been that the time had not yet come, a further decade would be needed and the economy needed to recover in any case. As always though the British are fecking things up for their own selfish reasons.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

yellowcard

Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM
Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 10:43:22 AM
Another interesting bit from the article

"The nationalist was the most annoyed and frustrated. He was particularly angry that unionism seemed content to economically withdraw into itself and into the eastern counties of the North.

He vividly described the economic waste land that exists on the western side of a line that stretches from Coleraine, bulging out to encompassing most of Tyrone and reaching the southern most point of Fermanagh. His most insightful description was that on their side of the line they had two airports and two universities.

The other businessman was less colourful but even more interesting. Born into a unionist background and a business that straddled the Border, his thesis was that Irish unionism was on its last legs.

Because of the changing demographics he argued that all that was needed was to convince a small number of unionists that Irish unity was the future. He was adamant that the number of unionists persuadable to that opinion was growing, and that the wrong people to do the persuading was Sinn Féin.

The argument as to who are the right people to do the persuading is for another day in the not too distant future, but the substance of this businessman's argument is being heard more often in unexpected quarters."

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

The impact of Brexit could have a telling effect on this particular grouping, but to answer the question as to who should be doing the persuading it really has to be the sitting Irish Government of the day.

Neither FF and FG have grasped this particular nettle, only playing around the fringes of being true nationalists and allowing the Shinners to own this space.

If either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

Agree with this 100%. Sinn Fein will always be the bogeymen with many Unionists so the onus is on the Irish government to persuade.

In this respect Miceal Martin and Fianna Fail, the supposedly traditional republican party in the south, have been a massive let down for northern nationalists. Bertie Ahern has his many detractors in the south for economic reasons but he was an excellent PM when it came to the peace process. Varadkar and Coveney to give them credit for FGers, have actually been more supportive of the plight of northern nationalists since they took over than Martin has been. I think he (Martin) has become so preoccupied by the threat of SF that he is coming across as just another traditional blue shirt. It's early days yet under Varadkar but both himself and Coveney have shown good leadership to date both in Brexit negotiations and in delivering clear and unambiguous statements in relation to the avoidance of direct rule.   

seafoid

Quote from: armaghniac on February 22, 2018, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

This isn't easily achieved because the 6 counties is so unproductive.


QuoteIf either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

See above. People in the 26 counties would welcome unity, but not having to pay to fix up the place. The British should be expected to leave the place in working order so that people can concentrate on the politics, not funding the place.

Pre Brexit I think the feeling generally would have been that the time had not yet come, a further decade would be needed and the economy needed to recover in any case. As always though the British are fecking things up for their own selfish reasons.
If the occupied territories are unproductive there must be a good bit of potential upside.  It wouldn't be as wide a gap between east and west Germany.
The north would be a welcome counterbalance to Dublin.
I think the pension funds could be the key. They are earning nothing right now with serious tail Risk.  If even half of the money could be redirected to real investment it could work for everyone 
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

ONARAGGATIP

Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on February 22, 2018, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

This isn't easily achieved because the 6 counties is so unproductive.


QuoteIf either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

See above. People in the 26 counties would welcome unity, but not having to pay to fix up the place. The British should be expected to leave the place in working order so that people can concentrate on the politics, not funding the place.

Pre Brexit I think the feeling generally would have been that the time had not yet come, a further decade would be needed and the economy needed to recover in any case. As always though the British are fecking things up for their own selfish reasons.
If the occupied territories are unproductive there must be a good bit of potential upside.  It wouldn't be as wide a gap between east and west Germany.
The north would be a welcome counterbalance to Dublin.
I think the pension funds could be the key. They are earning nothing right now with serious tail Risk.  If even half of the money could be redirected to real investment it could work for everyone

if there was a like button I would hit it.

armaghniac

Quote from: seafoid on February 22, 2018, 12:40:58 PM
If the occupied territories are unproductive there must be a good bit of potential upside.  It wouldn't be as wide a gap between east and west Germany.
The north would be a welcome counterbalance to Dublin.
I think the pension funds could be the key. They are earning nothing right now with serious tail Risk.  If even half of the money could be redirected to real investment it could work for everyone

I'd love to see some thorough research on what the difference actually is in detail, rather than generalities.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

NI was a  disaster economically for loyalist areas post the collapse of shipbuilding. No society can afford that level of deliberate waste. Very UK. Same as in Yorkshire. 

This is also interesting

https://m.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/unionists-facing-a-perfect-storm-of-brexit-and-demographic-shift-36628756.html
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

BennyCake

Quote from: armaghniac on February 22, 2018, 11:17:02 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 22, 2018, 11:05:04 AM

Economic unionists are as likely to forego their unionism if a 32 county Ireland if the right package was put in front of them as much as we've seen small n nationalists happy to live in the status quo of a British statelet.

This isn't easily achieved because the 6 counties is so unproductive.


QuoteIf either were to come out and say they're putting together a proposal to set out a process to unite Ireland would it be a vote loser in the 26 counties?

See above. People in the 26 counties would welcome unity, but not having to pay to fix up the place. The British should be expected to leave the place in working order so that people can concentrate on the politics, not funding the place.

Pre Brexit I think the feeling generally would have been that the time had not yet come, a further decade would be needed and the economy needed to recover in any case. As always though the British are fecking things up for their own selfish reasons.

When have the Brits ever left a place in working order?