The Palestine thread

[AZOffaly]

I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.

[thebigfella]

So, Israel go back to doing what it does best: Killing children.

In the past 30 minutes they struck the Al Dalou family home, completly destroying it. 2 siblings, one aged 5, the other 1
were killed instantly, and up to 40 more injured. they are still trying to clear the rubble to find more.

In another attack, they hit an ambulance, injuring 2 medics.

Over 250,000 Palestinians are staying in UN shelters and many more displaced and staying with family members.

Gaza has been bombed back to the stone age, and that still isn't enough for the blood thirsty Israelis.

While people will still repeat the Israeli hasbara, "Hamas fired rockets" to justify the Israeli slaughter, they forget that
it is Israel who started all of this, and the Palestinian resistance groups have every right to self defence. Who else is defending them? Is the EU or the USA standing up? No. Not even Ireland could be bothered to vote in favour of
investigating Israeli war crimes in Gaza.

Saying Hamas brought the deaths upon the Palestinians by firing rockets is no different to saying a woman deserved to be raped because she wore a short skirt and a low cut top.

Israel broke the cease fire in 2008 that led to Operation Cast Lead where 1,400 Palestinians were killed in 3 weeks.

They also broke the ceasefire that led to Operation Pillar of Cloud in 2012 which led to 182 Palestinians been killed

And following that ceasefire, Israel broke it over 250 times before lauching Operation Protective Edge.

And how can we forget the decades long illegal occupation.

But hey, its all the fault of Hamas because the main steam media repeated the Israel lie that it was they who started it.

PS for anyone thats interested, here are a list of ceasefire violations by Israel during the past ceasefire

http://occupiedpalestine.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/watchisrael-overview-of-israeli-ceasefire-violations-since-aug-12-2014/

You really are a fool and helping no one's cause. Glad people are starting to see through you; wouldn't be hard though because once you actually engage rather than posting other people's opinions, you are shown to be a complete buffoon.

[seafoid]

From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.

I don't think anyone is saying that to be fair. Israel is obviously responsible for any deaths as a result of its shelling and ground troop activity.

What I'm saying is that, tactically, the Hamas actions seem to be a very high price for a very high gamble that Israel, or the International Community, will somehow get tired of blowing Gaza to shit. It's high stakes, and at the moment it looks like Israel is set on its course. Someone else will have to turn them around, and a few rockets fired into Israel is not going to do that.

It does look nuts from a perspective that says Israel is rational/regular loss analysis

But if you look at it from the Gaza perspective

-In 2000 5% of the people were on food aid. Today it's 80% - worse than Afghanistan. In Egypt across the border the numbers are below 2 % . this is deliberate Israeli policy.

-Israel has destroyed the economy

-Israel has destroyed the sewage system and the water is undrinkable

-Israel is slowly moving Gaza to a situation where a humanitarian crisis develops because the conditions of life there become unsustainable

- Gaza is going to become an incubator of disease

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/07/uk-mideast-gaza-germany-idUKKBN0G71P320140807
"Lieberman told Thursday's mass-selling German daily Bild that Germany had a "very significant" role to play in preventing an economic and humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza",


And worldwide most Jews don't give a f**k/are too afraid to speak up 

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.610856
"The Jewish Chronicle, a British newspaper, has apologized for running an advertisement for a charity raising funds for the crisis in Gaza"

So if you were in Gaza and you knew that Israel was doing what it is doing what would you do? 

[seafoid]

I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.

The 2 SS is not going to fly because of the settlers. Who is going to move them ? 

I think the answer eventually would be some sort of federation . But something awful is probably going to happen before that happens.
Israel is not stable. The level of hatred that exists against Palestinians has been cultivated for over 40 years. 
Israeli Jews want the status quo and that's not feasible either.

Something that changes the way Israeli Jews are educated will have to be part of the solution. And the impetus to change will only come when the status quo becomes unprofitable.

[Franko]

I said I think it is the only feasible solution. I'm still waiting to hear a viable alternative in my view. Israel, penned back behind the 1967 borders, and Palestine regaining the territories occupied since then; with both sides forced by an international peacekeeping force to respect these boundaries seems to be the most likely solution for a meaningful peace.

What's the alternative? And don't make pithy comments about Israel being a liability, or destroying itself, or whatever. What is Seafoid's vision of a peaceful Israel/Palestine solution? Not being smart, I want to know.

Good luck with this one AZ - I've been trying for a long time now to get some sort of coherence out of this guy but all that seems to come back is links to articles and rambling posts made up of 6 word sentences.

[AZOffaly]

What sort of Federation seafoid? What do you mean when you say Federation? An umbrella like the old Russian Federation? Or some sort of single federal state like the USA?

[seafoid]

Dr Mads Gilbert says "this is all planned, this all man made"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9O3EcuuIuk

[AZOffaly]

I can't look at youtube links with sound, I'm in work. But about the Federation, what do you mean by that?

[seafoid]

What sort of Federation seafoid? What do you mean when you say Federation? An umbrella like the old Russian Federation? Or some sort of single federal state like the USA?

Something cantonised  like Belgium or CH.
Local devolved power and less of a centralised government as at the present time.

Jewish and Palestinian rights to live in the space have to be respected but no apartheid.

[AZOffaly]

I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.

[seafoid]

I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.

They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche. 

[AZOffaly]

I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.

They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche.

They would say their income would be much more dependent on staying as a separate, Israeli state.

[seafoid]

I see what you mean, but I would have very little confidence that the Israelis would live side by side with their Palestinian neighbours, nor do I hold out much hope for some elements in Palestine not trying to exact revenge on Israelis in such a federation.

They will if their incomes depend on it.

I think Israel is on a very dangerous path of extremism and that they'll take too many risks and eventually come to their senses. Sunningdale for very slow learners.
Israel is a very sad country IMO. Ireland shows that trauma goes through the generations and the Holocaust will take many decades to work its way out of the Israeli psyche.

They would say their income would be much more dependent on staying as a separate, Israeli state.

As long as the occupation continues they don't have to pay reparations to the Palestinians. They took a lot of free land for houses and they get free water. They sell weapons and control systems they test on Gaza and the West Bank. Sure why wouldn't they like it ? But that doesn't mean it's sustainable. 

If they want a separate Israeli state they should vote for it. But it's very hard to fight such a sophisticated system even if it is actually working against their interest.

Not unlike the celtic tiger.

[seafoid]

@ AZ

The Israeli education system is a big part of the problem


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.611395

"Anti-Arab racism and anti-leftist incitement did not start this summer. Nor are they the product of an educational "error." They are what could be expected from an educational system that for decades has been subject to a single narrative and a single curriculum and flees from any effort to confront multiple points of view.
Young people shouting "Death to Arabs" prove the success of the educational system more than its failure. Such youths have internalized an aggressive worldview in which the strong side erases the "other" – be he Arab, poor or Mizrahi (a Jew of Middle Eastern origin) – just like they saw in school. Thus, in schools they recite Israel's Declaration of Independence, which promises equal rights regardless of religion, race, or gender, but ignore the inequality between Jews and Arabs; they praise "equality of opportunity" for all, but don't address the gaps between pupils from different socioeconomic backgrounds; they praise "national unity," but marginalize the history of large swaths of the population. "

[give her dixie]

Official: 20 killed by Israeli strikes since truce collapsed

Renewed Israeli attacks on Gaza have killed 20 Palestinians since a temporary ceasefire collapsed on Tuesday, a health ministry spokesman said Wednesday.

Ashraf al-Qidra said that Zaki Suleiman al-Rai, 54, died from wounds sustained early Wednesday.

The bodies of Mustafa Rabah al-Dalou, 14 and Wafaa Hussein al-Dalou were also recovered from the wreckage of the al-Dalou family home in Gaza City.

Earlier, a two-year-old Palestinian girl was killed in Israeli shelling on the al-Zaytoun neighborhood of Gaza City, al-Qidra said.

She was identified as Nour Muhammad Abu Hasirah.

Before that, al-Qidra said an Israeli airstrike killed an unidentified man near the al-Maqusi residential buildings in western Gaza City. The man's body was taken to Shifa hospital.

Al-Qidra added that civil defense rescue teams had recovered the bodies of a woman and a child from the rubble of the al-Dalou family home in Sheikh Radwan, which was hit by five Israeli missiles.

The wife and daughter of al-Qassam Brigades commander Muhammad Deif were killed in the attack, Hamas says, along with four-year-old Ahmad al-Dalou.

A 24-hour truce due to last until midnight collapsed late Tuesday afternoon when Israel said rockets fired from the Strip hit Beersheba. Hamas denied firing the rockets.

An Israeli army statement said that 117 rockets had been fired at Israel from Gaza since the truce collapsed.

One of them hit a home in Ashkelon without causing injuries, it said.

Earlier, the army said it had struck "some 60 terror sites" in Gaza overnight, in addition to targeting "two terrorists ... in the northern Gaza Strip."

Over 2,000 Palestinians -- the vast majority of them civilians -- have been killed throughout Israel's offensive on Gaza.

Sixty-seven people have been killed on the Israeli side, 64 of them soldiers.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=721960