The Palestine thread

[AZOffaly]

Israel are 100% wrong in this. If you're looking for me to argue against that, you have the wrong man. I support the people of Gaza in this situation. I do support Israels right to exist, but not their policy of illegal settlements and mass murder.

My issue with what Hamas are doing is it seems futile, self defeating and a death sentence for even more innocents. Tactically is seems, from the safety of tipperary at least, to make no sense.

[seafoid]

Then they will be obliterated.

They won't be obliterated, AZ. It's not the 15th century. Maybe it is up in Ballingarry but not on the plains. 
Israel has a nice fat juicy economy to think about. They need to export their way in the world. They have to keep the butchery within reasonable limits.

It looks like they started a war they have no idea how to stop.   

[muppet]

So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.

I said previously that they have tried everything. Talks, ceasefires, you name it, they tried it. What did they get in response?

More and more deaths. A brutal siege, and more and more of their land stolen

Well the links provide a lot of evidence of the violations of the ceasefire by Israel.

Look at Hamas firing the rockets.

Pros:
They have a right to defend themselves (not a great one in my book)

Cons:
Israel bombs them with really big bombs in retaliation
Israel invades from time to time to 'search for the rockets'
Israel blames the rockets for the siege and crushes their economy
Israel points to the Palestinian authority as a terrorist organisation for firing the rockets
For some people it actually justifies Israel's brutality and thus is a PR disaster for the Palestinians
Israel blames Iran, Syria and Jihadist groups for supplying the rockets which makes it difficult for Western Governments to be sympathetic
Thousands of their people die

I am sure I missed some so feel free to add.

[seafoid]

So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?

Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?
   

[AZOffaly]

So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?

Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?

Except lives. Hard to get them back. I don't call that nifty.

[muppet]

So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?

Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?

So the plan is: Fire the rockets, so that Israel will slaughter thousands of us? Then what will Israel do?

You mentioned earlier that this is a game of chess.

This is what I guess you were referring to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrifice_(chess)

But chess is played with chess pieces.

[seafoid]

So you think that all that they can or should do is fire rockets? If that is the case, this is already over. The international community has blood on their hands too.

And by they way I did read your posts. I read all your posts except the ones which just are links to articles.

I said previously that they have tried everything. Talks, ceasefires, you name it, they tried it. What did they get in response?

More and more deaths. A brutal siege, and more and more of their land stolen

Well the links provide a lot of evidence of the violations of the ceasefire by Israel.

Look at Hamas firing the rockets.

Pros:
They have a right to defend themselves (not a great one in my book)

Cons:
Israel bombs them with really big bombs in retaliation   No change
Israel invades from time to time to 'search for the rockets'  No change
Israel blames the rockets for the siege and crushes their economy That is the Israeli system, rockets or no rockets
Israel points to the Palestinian authority as a terrorist organisation for firing the rockets That is PR bullshit
For some people it actually justifies Israel's brutality and thus is a PR disaster for the Palestinians Not amongst younger US Jews
Israel blames Iran, Syria and Jihadist groups for supplying the rockets which makes it difficult for Western Governments to be sympathetic Lobby money keeps them quiet.
Thousands of their people die Israel kills them

I am sure I missed some

If you thought Israel was going to offer Gaza something better than a siege you might be on to something. But it isn't.

Gaza rubs the lotion on its skin. Or else it gets the siege again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQb2m6VJ-eo

[seafoid]

So, does anyone else think that the Palestinians in Gaza have no right to defend themselves?

Please explain strategically, tactically and any other way possible, how firing rockets that almost never hit anything, is defending themselves?

Strategically it's about putting pressure on Israel to lift the siege. The war costs Israel and a long one will send the economy into recession.
Throw in diplomatic losses and Gaza has nothing to lose. Whatever will be destroyed by Israel will be rebuilt by donors. It's quite a nifty plan.
Israel lashes out autistically as it always does and piles on the cruelty but it's a media war now and the Israelis are losing that angle.
I can't see Gaza going back to the siege. Can you ?

Except lives. Hard to get them back. I don't call that nifty.

Israel would kill people anyway AZ. It's not like they are ever going to play fair with Gaza.
Israel's Final Solution for Gaza is deportation.
Would you prefer an ongoing  siege with say 300 killed a year ending in ethnic cleansing or an end to the siege with say 3000 dead?

It's a big decision in a town called Gaza

 

[Mike Sheehy]

How many deaths in Gaza will it take for the "nifty" plan to work ?

[muppet]

 Well if Seafoid is right, then so is AZ.

There is absolutely no hope for the people of Gaza.

[macdanger2]

From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.

[seafoid]

Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.

[AZOffaly]

From reports I heard last night, Hamas denied that they had fired these rocket – was story that subsequently changed? At this stage, do Hamas have any other option other than continue firing rockets?

The alternative will basically leave them in the same situation as they were before the war i.e. blockaded by the Egypt / Israel and more or less shut off from the outside world. Such a move would presumably be disastrous to Palestinian moral i.e. the entire thing would have been pointless and their end position is worse than when they started.

As such, it looks like the only option for Hamas & Palestine is to continue to force the issue until the blockade is lifted. This (firing rockets) is clearly a provocation of Israel but anyone who says that Hamas are more responsible for the Palestinian deaths than those who fire the bombs into Palestine is deluded.

I don't think anyone is saying that to be fair. Israel is obviously responsible for any deaths as a result of its shelling and ground troop activity.

What I'm saying is that, tactically, the Hamas actions seem to be a very high price for a very high gamble that Israel, or the International Community, will somehow get tired of blowing Gaza to shit. It's high stakes, and at the moment it looks like Israel is set on its course. Someone else will have to turn them around, and a few rockets fired into Israel is not going to do that.

[AZOffaly]

Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.

If by the adults, you mean the International Community, i.e. the UN/USA/Russia etc, then that's what I've been saying all along. But that will lead to a two state solution, which I think is the only feasible one. You've consistently said the two state solution is not a runner, so what do you think the adults will do?

[seafoid]

Israel always frames the conflict as rational Jews versus irrational Orientals.
But the siege is completely irrational. Israel can't force the Gazans back to it. And it can't back down either.
The adults need to take over.

If by the adults, you mean the International Community, i.e. the UN/USA/Russia etc, then that's what I've been saying all along. But that will lead to a two state solution, which I think is the only feasible one. You've consistently said the two state solution is not a runner, so what do you think the adults will do?

Israel has to be brought to heel. Sanctions would be the least painful.

It has been destroying the possibility of 2 states since 1967. That is why there are 750000 settlers on the west bank.
Who says 2 states is the only feasible solution? Israel already runs one state where only jews have full citizenship. So sanctions until the palestinians get their rights.

What is more likely is the status quo until something awful happens.
Israel is a liability.