The Palestine thread

[HiMucker]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-28656874

Fair play to her.

[give her dixie]

The Caterpillar from which no butterfly emerges

OK -  pub quiz time and an easy one for starters: where does Homer Simpson work? That's right – in a nuclear plant. That's what makes The Simpsons  such a good show. It takes something that could be stretched and chewed over and tosses it lightly away. Homer makes his living and supports his family through the nuclear industry.

Which brings us to Caterpillar. They're a company that employs hundreds of people in Larne and Belfast. Last year it got £1.2  million in funding from InvestNI. Well, you may say, companies need subsidies sometimes – it's worth it for the job. The catch is the Homer Simpson catch. Caterpillar is a US engineering firm and bulldozers made by Caterpillar were in action in Gaza a short time ago, and over the years has razed  thousand of Palestinian homes and farms. They've wrecked electricity lines, water supplies and sewerage systems. In short, they're part of Israel's war machine. Thanks to the work done by people in Belfast and Larne, Palestinians are suffering.

Tough one, eh?  People in Belfast and Larne need jobs. Caterpillar creates hundreds of them. Should we refuse to have anything to do with them, on the grounds that they've been used to terrorise the Palestinian people? Or should we avert our gaze and be glad the company's providing giving ordinary people a living?Working in the nuclear plant doesn't seem to bother Homer -  the plant is being used for positive, peaceful purposes.  The people who work for Caterpillar in Larne and Belfast might say that they just build the machines; what others do with them is entirely their affair.

The purist would say these machines are helping to make life hell for Palestinians and we should have no truck with them. But be honest: if the breadwinner in your family was working for Caterpillar, would you urge him or her to stop immediately, with all the implications that would have for the family?

My instincts tell me that making such machines, given the suffering they have helped inflict, is wrong. Just as it's wrong to be involved in building tanks and fighter jets and missiles which the UK then sells to the highest bidder in what is euphemistically called the arms trade. If you or I were found making a home-made pistol or building a home-made bomb, we'd be in front of a judge and inside a prison cell in double-quick time. Shouldn't the same criteria be applied here? Irish people are helping heap misery on the people of Gaza. How can we call on Israel to stop its trail of slaughter, if we're handing them part of the machinery they need to inflict that slaughter?

In the end, you have to decide whose side you're on. There's no point using the excuse of the train-driver who brought Jews to Auschwitz: "It's not me – I'm just doing my job".

http://linkis.com/www.judecollins.com/THv2m

[stew]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

[haveaharp]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

[whitey]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

[haranguerer]

Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?

I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.

You are the one who mentioned 'the unyielding bravery' of RTE anchors. I offered to pay your way and you chickened out.

So you'll actually pay for someone to go out and stay in Gaza during the conflict, with the sole provisio that they make regular reports to RTE?

[whitey]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.

[Arthur_Friend]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.

So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

[whitey]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.

So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

[Arthur_Friend]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.

So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

Getting rid of the Israeli state is a far cry from wiping everybody out. As far as I'm aware the Israelis refer to Israel as a 'Jewish state' and are slowly annexing the West Bank. How is this different from Hamas wanting an 'Islamic state' in the entire region?

There should be neither in my opinion. Just don't try and tell me Hamas are worse than the Israelis.

[whitey]

The Palestinians have been compromising for quite some time now whitey.
[/quote

But have they taken out of their  constitution that they no longer want to wipe Jews off the face of the earth?

I know that is Hamas but they are feeding support for the Israelis because of this repugnant rhetoric!

Hamas have said it whereas israel is actually doing it.

IF Hamas had the capability, they WOULD wipe them out on a heartbeat.

So you know for a fact that if they could Hamas would wipe out every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel?

Its in their charter....unless theyre only codding
The Hamas Covenant also known as Hamas Charter, refers to the Charter of the Hamas, issued on 18 August 1988, outlining the movement founding identity, stand, and aims.[1]

The Charter identified Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors." The charter states that "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[2] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel.[3][4] The charter also states that Hamas is humanistic, and tolerant of other religions as long as they "stop disputing the sovereignty of Islam in this region".[5] The Charter adds that "renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion" of Islam.[1]

Getting rid of the Israeli state is a far cry from wiping everybody out. As far as I'm aware the Israelis refer to Israel as a 'Jewish state' and are slowly annexing the West Bank. How is this different from Hamas wanting an 'Islamic state' in the entire region?

There should be neither in my opinion. Just don't try and tell me Hamas are worse than the Israelis.

Im not typically a fan of cutting and pasting, but please tell me what part of this paragraph leaves any ambiguity as to what their intentions are:

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)

[Arthur_Friend]

All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

[whitey]

All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

Did you even bother to read what I posted?


He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow

Heres some more excerpts from their charter in case you need more proof.

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one

can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the

Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



So if Hamas destroy Israel, as per their charter what do you think will happen the Jewish residents.

Will the Palestinians invite them over for tea and crumpets

[muppet]

Full credit to our national broadcaster RTE for their unstinting 'coverage' of the horror in Gaza.
One must credit the unyielding bravery of RTE anchors who actually pick up the phone and ring channel 4 and BBC war correspondents who are on the ground in in Gaza.It must be tough talking to real journalists who are in actual danger doing their job.

Good man, civilians, including women and children, are being slaughtered, and this is your contribution.

I will happily pay to send you to Gaza, as long as you give hourly news reports to RTE. If you fail to do so for any reason, you pay me back, deal?

I have a better idea.Why not send Gay Byrne out there.RTE journalists were falling over each other for President Higgins important state visit to Britain.

By the way you can make a very real contribution to the innocent children of Gaza through UNICEF or through the Irish Red Cross.The picture on page 21 of todays INDO reduced me to tears,It must be shown but it is unbelievably horrific and heartbreaking.Their are no winners in war.Hamas continued disregard for their civilian population and Israels murderous and reckless retaliatory disregard for civilian populations shows no signs of stopping.

You are the one who mentioned 'the unyielding bravery' of RTE anchors. I offered to pay your way and you chickened out.

So you'll actually pay for someone to go out and stay in Gaza during the conflict, with the sole provisio that they make regular reports to RTE?

He was whinging about RTE not sending anyone so I offered to send him. He now wants to send an 80 year old Gaybo.

[Arthur_Friend]

All that in a nutshell is:

Palestine should be Islamic state. Peace conferences won't achieve this. Fighting will. The end.

So again, where in all of that is the call for the Final Solution part 2?

Oh and I'm pretty sure some Israelis think God promised them the land as well or maybe I picked that up wrong?

Did you even bother to read what I posted?


He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow

Heres some more excerpts from their charter in case you need more proof.

'Israel will exist and  will  continue  to  exist  until  Islam  will

obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)



The Exclusive Moslem Nature of the Area:

----------------------------------------

'The  land  of  Palestine  is  an  Islamic  Waqf  [Holy   Possession]

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No  one

can renounce it or any part, or  abandon  it  or  any  part  of  it.'

(Article 11)



'Palestine is  an  Islamic  land...  Since  this  is  the  case,  the

Liberation of Palestine  is  an  individual  duty  for  every  Moslem

wherever he may be.' (Article 13)



So if Hamas destroy Israel, as per their charter what do you think will happen the Jewish residents.

Will the Palestinians invite them over for tea and crumpets

First of all - I did read what you posted...and there is nothing in your cut and paste calling for all Jews to be wiped out. Nothing.

What would happen if Hamas got their wish and created an Islamic state in Palestine ? I don't know and neither do you. I do hope the Palestinians wouldn't be so inhumane as to chase all the Jews off their land and make them live in squalid refugee camps in neighbouring countries.

Besides which...aren't Hamas allowed to move from this original position? If I recall correctly they stated a few years back that they were willing make peace with Israel based on the 1967 borders. We all know who doesn't like that particular plan (building Jewish only towns in the West Bank and all that).