The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.   

[EC Unique]

[LeoMc]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10

Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?

Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.

I can see how removing US protection will allow UN resolutions to go through but I think, Lobbyists or not, the US will still see the IDF as a market for their armaments.
If World condemnations and sanctions can be brought to bear on Israel where do they go politically? Is a 1 state solution the route forward.

[AZOffaly]

Arsenal Football Club?

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10

Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?

Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.

I can see how removing US protection will allow UN resolutions to go through but I think, Lobbyists or not, the US will still see the IDF as a market for their armaments.
If World condemnations and sanctions can be brought to bear on Israel where do they go politically? Is a 1 state solution the route forward.

I dunno. Israel isn't such a big market compared to Asia . The lobby gives it a profile it wouldn't have on its own.
They need an unsuccessful war to change course, probably.
2 states would be best but they'll have to root out the settlers.

Zionism is a bit like the celtic tiger. Built on very dodgy assumptions, too big to fail and a mess when it eventually comes face to face with reality. 

[johnneycool]

Israel doesn't buy armaments of the US, they're given them in the form of aid.

[Mike Sheehy]

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.   

[seafoid]

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

[seafoid]

"Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. "

This is what I love about Sheehy. He must have gone over before there were telephones.
you can't know as much as he does because he has American TV on in his sitting room.
And he listens to it avidly. and you don't. So you can't possibly know anything.
There is no other valid source of information. 
And it's not possible to subscribe to any American magazines or follow American news online.

God love him.   

[Mike Sheehy]

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

calm down habibi. Jesus , you will burst a blood vessel if you keep losing the rag like this.

Obviously I can't "prove" that you work for an Israeli company. Perhaps you could just clarify who the Israeli work colleagues are so ? and what business brings you to Israel so often. No need for any revealing details of course , just something, general along the lines of "I work for a multinational that works in the area of  risk assessment and happens to have an office in Israel but its not an actual Israeli company"

you know, just something like that. If you were to do that then I'd have no problem with not saying you work for an Israeli company.

However, it still leaves you in a bind. Whatever way you spin it you are making a living off Israel which should be a big no-no for someone that puts your level of effort into hating the place.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

Decent Turn out at the Dail for the Vigil. Popped down on my lunch.

March on Saturday in the city centre if anyone is around.

[seafoid]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2014/jul/31/gaza-crisis-israel-calls-up-reservists-as-it-maintains-offensive-live-coverage

I just spoke to Dr Medhat Abbas, director general of the ministry of health in Gaza, who said the health system will collapse if things continue as they are.
He said:
Yesterday, after the massacre of Shujai'iya, where 16 people were killed and 200 were wounded, the victims were taken to Shifa hospital, which is the biggest hospital of the Gaza strip. I don't know how to describe ...the health professionals in the hospital were not enough to deal with this large number of victims at once.
All of the operating rooms were full of patients, some operating rooms were receiving two patients at once ...some other patients had surgery in the corridors and if you go to the departments of this hospital, Shifa hospital, you will find that two patients are sleeping in one bed and some other patients are sleeping in corridors. Also, 30 patients are supposed to be discharged from the hospital to go home but because they have been displaced from their homes, they have nowhere to go. We can't discharge them.
Abbas called for an immediate lifting of the blockade of Gaza and international intervention to bring about the end of the offensive, warning that otherwise the health system would definitely collapse.


So the health system will collapse. and together with the water system people will start dying of infectious disease.
And 95% of Israeli Jews say this is justified.

God help Israel.
And this is going to be remembered for a very, very long time, as will the complicity of the leaders of the major Jewish organisations in the US.
And what is really sad is that Zionism is not Judaism at all. It just took the right to speak on behalf of all Jews.

[Mike Sheehy]

"Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. "

This is what I love about Sheehy. He must have gone over before there were telephones.
you can't know as much as he does because he has American TV on in his sitting room.
And he listens to it avidly. and you don't. So you can't possibly know anything.
There is no other valid source of information. 
And it's not possible to subscribe to any American magazines or follow American news online.

God love him.

I suppose it would be like somebody saying that the have lived in Egypt and are therefore more qualified to understand what Egyptians think.

You would not know anyone like that would you, habibi ?

[seafoid]

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid.
Fail again. Fail better.

Making a living off the Israelies and then spending every waking minute talking about boycotts and sanctions and economic pressure.

Its a terrible contradictory position to take Seafoid. You really should quit.

but, first, Moyshe called and said the Zionist photocopier on the second floor is on the blink so hop to it like a good lad.

Prove it. I mean really prove it. Prove that last month I was paid by an Israeli company.
Otherwise keep on embarrassing yourself.

calm down habibi. Jesus , you will burst a blood vessel if you keep losing the rag like this.

Obviously I can't "prove" that you work for an Israeli company. Perhaps you could just clarify who the Israeli work colleagues are so ? and what business brings you to Israel so often. No need for any revealing details of course , just something, general along the lines of "I work for a multinational that works in the area of  risk assessment and happens to have an office in Israel but its not an actual Israeli company"

you know, just something like that. If you were to do that then I'd have no problem with not saying you work for an Israeli company.

However, it still leaves you in a bind. Whatever way you spin it you are making a living off Israel which should be a big no-no for someone that puts your level of effort into hating the place.

I can say that you post in a negligee.
Why do you post in a negligee ?

[johnneycool]

I was in the states a few times after 9/11, New York to be precise as the US were invading Iraq for the second time and TBH the Americans and Irish Americans really were kept in the dark about what was actually happening by the media.
They'd all seen the great clips of the news reporter riding on the side of the tank and the pulling down off Saddams statue and thought the job was done.
Then you'd tell them about some of the fatalities on the American side the BBC would be reporting and they'd never have heard of it, so I wouldn't be surprised that the average American hasn't the first clue about what happening in Gaza, they'll know plenty about what is happening in Ukraine though!

Social media may be breaking that filter, but if the average middle aged american isn't on twitter or some other type medium and reliant on the TV and print media they'll not have a clue.