The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Sheehy

As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Why? Palestinian self determination means what it says on the tin. Who are you to say what's acceptable for the Palestinian people ? Are you some sort of Caliph ?

What has Fatah delivered for the Palestinians ? Nothing. why? Because Israel continues to build settlements.

If Israel is interested in 2 states why does it build settlements ?

[johnneycool]

Sheehy

As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Why? Palestinian self determination means what it says on the tin. Who are you to say what's acceptable for the Palestinian people ? Are you some sort of Caliph ?

What has Fatah delivered for the Palestinians ? Nothing. why? Because Israel continues to build settlements.

If Israel is interested in 2 states why does it build settlements ?

I think the world and its dog knows Israel doesn't want a two state solution whether its workable or not.

[seafoid]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

[LeoMc]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

[seafoid]

It is a complete clusterfuck

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.608138

"Jewish Agency Chairman Natan Sharansky warned last week that "we are seeing the beginning of the end of Jewish history in Europe," in an op-ed published in the U.K.'s Jewish Chronicle last week.
Sharansky joins a number of European figures, including French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius, to warn about the alarming rise of anti-Semitism on the continent since the beginning of Israel's military operation in Gaza on July 8."

and it's all my and GHD's fault. Tsk tsk

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10

[Sidney]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

[seafoid]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

I would agree. They have to see some economic impact .There is no way the status quo is acceptable going forward. "Mowing the lawn" has to stop.

[Mike Sheehy]

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

Americans will not change their stance unless the security issue is addressed , irrespective of what influence AIPAC exerts.

Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do. 

[theskull1]

Security is a smoke screen argument IMO Mike as Israel progresses toward its ultimate aim. A 2 state solution is not on theior road map. I think they are well aware that the collateral damage (certainly on a death toll factor of 1:30 any military machine would take it) on their own side is a price worth paying for and actually provides them with the excuse they provide as they continue to press the foot on the wind pipe of the Palestinian people.

Israel does not want peace and security without the territory they are stealing.

[Mike Sheehy]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

[LeoMc]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10

Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?

[haranguerer]

Agreed. That's why it must not be a "choice" for them anymore. It should be "take the two state solution or else"
As long as it is not Hamas that are implementing the "or else" part I am fine with whatever proportional steps that are taken to compel them. Your job then is to , somehow, make that argument.

Israel has made its choice and has been very clear in making that choice. Now is the time for international action. And given the obvious lack of action and will to take any action from the US and EU, a boycott campaign amongst citizens against Israel is entirely justified, and entirely necessary.

Sidney

Boycott just the settlements or Israel as well ?

Israel as a whole, if that doesn't make me an anti-semite.

I'd particularly like to see an organised boycott of transport to and from Israel, say airport and port workers in other countries refusing to co-operate with flights or ships to or from Israel, refusing to load or unload produce and other goods, etc.

Agreed.

We should start by getting Seafoid to quit working for an Israeli company. Charity begins at home, as they say.

Credit where its due - lols

[seafoid]

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

Americans will not change their stance unless the security issue is addressed , irrespective of what influence AIPAC exerts.

Seafoid is clueless about Americans and what they will or will not do.

Most Americans are decent people and if they get decent information they usually don't support oppression.
Which is why the hasbara is so important.
But even young Jews are turning away from Israel now.

There is a fundamental tension between Jewish values and Israeli cruelty that will eventually bring the house of Zionism  down. 

[seafoid]

1 - Israel is guilty of war crimes, and the atrocities currently ongoing are more of the same.
2 - Israel is illegally settling Gaza and the West Bank, and should be forced to revert to the 1967 UN Boundary.
3 - Israel, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
4 - Palestine, within those boundaries has a right to exist.
5 - An external force, probably the UN, will be required to keep each side from attacking the other.
6 - Hamas has fired rockets into Israel, and this is again criminal behaviour, but it does not excuse the Israeli response.

Those points are all reasonable but they are not a reflection of reality. Israel will never tolerate a Palestinian state in the Holy Land.That is the starting point. And there is no point in thinking that Israel is a normal country that just needs a bit of George Mitchell to bring things back to equilibrium.
   

..and Hamas will not tolerate anything other than a muslim state ...stop picking and choosing the realities you acknowledge. You have to deal with both realities yet you make no serious attempt to do so.

Hamas wants the siege lifted. They are willing to accept 2 states. But Israel wants all the land and the siege straight after any ceasefire.
Israel is turning  fascist.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.607924
I suppose it had to happen. 

And I don't have to accept the argument that Israel has no choice other than fascism.

Israel has bombed 6 UN schools. Is that acceptable ?

No. It is not acceptable. It is a war crime.

What about 95% of Israeli Jews approving the carnage ?

That's the difference between you and me Seafoid. I can make an unequivocal, unqualified condemnation of a war crime. Apparently this is not enough for you. You seem to want me to hate jews as well.

The twitter link you posted had a headline "95% of Israelies support the massacre in Gaza". If you actually read what the survey question was it was whether "Operation protective edge is justified". If you ask someone "do you support the massacre in Gaza" that is different to asking them "Do you think operation protective edge is justified"

We have already been through this with GHD's "subhuman" comments. If you ask people questions in wartime and you extrapolate conclusions as to their "humanity" etc then you are going to get a skewed information.

It is irresponsible and it wont help stop the carnage or further Palestinian self-determinism so I'd advise you to stop this line of attack because you are merely proving to everybody what I have said about you all along i.e that it is their Jewishness, above all else, that troubles you.

International force yada yada Help stop the carnage dhera dhera

All the American Senators believe in Israel.
Sure you would too with that sort of money

The problem with Zionism is that it takes up too many evenings.

Is this your way of saying Mikes proposal will not work?
Do you have an alternative proposal?
If we are too far down the line for the 2 state solution of 1995 is a 1 state solution the answer?

The only way to stop it is to take AIPAC out of American politics.
AIPAC wants apartheid.
Do you think anyone else can do anything ? Answers on a postcard.

OK, so if the Zionist lobbyists are removed from US politics then what?
There are plenty of unpleasant regimes supported by US military aid so that won't go away so removal of the Lobbyists would only reduce the likelihood of the US blocking US resolutions.

do you think AIPAC helps the situation? Scale of 1 to 10

Straw man. I didn't wasy they were helping.
I asked asked what removing their influence will do?

Introduce accountability.
AIPAC ensure impunity. That is the worst thing for Israel.
They take the wrong decisions because they know they will be shielded from the consequences.