The Palestine thread

[give her dixie]

Agreement in principle then.

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?

The US needs to step up to the plate. For too long they have been giving Israel financial and political cover. They now receive $3 billion per year in military aid, and every time that a resolution has gone before the UN security council critical of Israeli actions, the US has used their veto to stop any further action.

Sadly though, the Jewish lobby is far too big in the US for anything to change soon on that front.

[Mike Sheehy]

Agreement in principle then.

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?

AZ, you have to question him on statements like this before believing that he truly means what he says

seafoid October 29, 2010 at 12:27 pm   
link to countercurrents.org
They will do anything to suppress dissent. Israel will have to be destroyed.

[seafoid]

Agreement in principle then.

Israel should be made stay behind the borders set in 1967, under threat of force from the UN.
Palestine and other Arab states should not be allowed attack or threaten Israel, under threat of force from the UN.
We need peacekeepers in there to make sure this happens, because we can't trust Israel, Palestine, or any of the other states not to be opportunistic.

I know the devil is in the detail, but it seems to me most people on here agree with those 3 points?

What would you do about the lobby in the States that ensures every time Israel violates international law the US veto at the UN is invoked?
Every single time the international community tries to restrain Israel the Yanks step in.
Israel is a very artificial state. It couldn't survive long without the military and diplomatic backup of the US  .
And even if we all agreed on what to do who is going to bring 750,000 Jewish settlers back to Israel ?

"We'll make a pastrami sandwich of them. We'll insert a strip of Jewish settlement, right across the West Bank, so that in 25 years time, neither the United Nations, nor the United States, nobody, will be able to tear it apart." – Ariel Sharon to Winston Churchill III in 1973

Leaving your kids to run riot for the duration of their childhood is bad for their development. The lesson also applies to countries.

[AZOffaly]

The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.

[seafoid]

The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.

It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

[LeoMc]

Sinn Féin MEP Martina Anderson has today called for an international inquiry into the abduction and killing of three Israeli settlers.

I actually think that would be a good idea. The Israeli government is blaming Hamas and using that as an excuse to clamp down whereas everything I have read would seem to point to a few renegade  individuals acting on their own. If International monitors can show it was not "sanctioned" it gives the Israeli Government one less excuse. At a minimum it puts International observers on the ground in the area to bear independent witness what is happening.


Meanwhile the families of the three murdered Israeli teenagers also issued a statement condemning the latest killing. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28132888

"If the Arab youth was murdered because of nationalistic motives then this is a horrible and horrendous act," it said.

"There is no difference between Arab blood and Jewish blood. Murder is murder. There is no forgiveness or justification for any murder."

[AZOffaly]

The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.

It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?

[seafoid]

The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.

It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?

Yeah. It's too late for 2 states. And I think Judaism can do way better than Zionism.

[Mike Sheehy]

The Yanks have to be onside in this for it to work. No question.

If you think my suggestion is unworkable, what's your suggestion? What is the end goal that should be arrived at, in your opinion. High level is fine.

Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis live in a new Palestine, with full rights to vote and elect their own people, like Northern Ireland?
Israel removed from the map as a state, and all Israelis deported to Europe or elsewhere?

Or is it something more like my own proposal?

Obviously these are just hypotheses, but I think if there was a consensus about what 'success' looks like, you can start working towards it. I think it's time the rest of world, including the US, took this out of the control of Israel and Palestine. They've proved they can't live together without some sort of external control.

It has gone beyond the point where Zionism can manage the situation.
Best way forward would have been the 2 state solution but Israel destroyed it. Now it's one state with apartheid. Both peoples have rights to the land. Long term it'll be one state. The people can live together but only as equals.

So what is the end game in your eyes? A single state called Palestine where the Israelis have the same rights as Palestinians, no more, no less?

Yeah. It's too late for 2 states. And I think Judaism can do way better than Zionism.

yes, all the evidence shows that people like you would respect and protect the rights of a jewish minority in a binational state 

[seafoid]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.
"The government of Israel is gathering for a revenge meeting that isn't a grief meeting. The landlord has gone mad at the sight of his sons' bodies. A government that turns the army of searchers to an army of avengers, an army that will not stop at 300 Philistine foreskins," Perel wrote, alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
"The disgrace will be paid for with the blood of the enemy, not with our tears," Perel concluded.
Perel posted the same message in a Facebook group of World Bnei Akiva envoys.

Perel, 44, has been the secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva since 2012. A Zionist-religious youth movement, World Bnei Akiva has over 150 branches in dozens of countries worldwide. According to the movement's website, it is dedicated to fighting "intermarriage and social assimilation" by encouraging immigration to Israel, by "deepening Jewish identity" and by "strengthening and connecting the Jewish nation abroad to the values of religious-Zionism and the state of Israel."

Dozens of social media groups calling for revenge of the murders of teens have been launched in the last two days, after the bodies were found. One of them, a Facebook group named "The people of Israel demands revenge," has already raked in over 35,000 likes.

[muppet]

Every time something like this happens, Israel reacts like a frenzied pack of wild dogs. Why do they do that? They behave like animals.

And knowing this, why do Palestinian groups do stuff like this, knowing that their civilians will suffer the most.

It's an awful situation that I think only a united international force can solve, but without a real will (not mealy mouthed horse shite) there to do that, it's just going to continue being a cesspit until eventually the Israelis destroy the Palestinians, or all the Arab states declare war on Israel.

This is the point I was making weeks ago. Bringing wild bloodthirsty dogs into the community is hardly the behaviour of sane people, never mind heroes.

The language used by both the Israeli leadership and Hamas in the last few days is beyond offensive. I would love to see them locked in a cage together, equally armed, for the rest of their shameful lives.

[Itchy]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.
"The government of Israel is gathering for a revenge meeting that isn't a grief meeting. The landlord has gone mad at the sight of his sons' bodies. A government that turns the army of searchers to an army of avengers, an army that will not stop at 300 Philistine foreskins," Perel wrote, alluding to the biblical tale of David, who killed 200 Philistines and gave their foreskins to King Saul as the bride price for his daughter.
"The disgrace will be paid for with the blood of the enemy, not with our tears," Perel concluded.
Perel posted the same message in a Facebook group of World Bnei Akiva envoys.

Perel, 44, has been the secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva since 2012. A Zionist-religious youth movement, World Bnei Akiva has over 150 branches in dozens of countries worldwide. According to the movement's website, it is dedicated to fighting "intermarriage and social assimilation" by encouraging immigration to Israel, by "deepening Jewish identity" and by "strengthening and connecting the Jewish nation abroad to the values of religious-Zionism and the state of Israel."

Dozens of social media groups calling for revenge of the murders of teens have been launched in the last two days, after the bodies were found. One of them, a Facebook group named "The people of Israel demands revenge," has already raked in over 35,000 likes.

More one sided bull from Seafood. Did I not hear hamas threaten to open the gates of hell to Israel in the past week. Any sane person can see that there are cowardly murdering scum on both sides and fools like you cheering on one side does nothing for any pragmatic solution.

[give her dixie]

Family of murdered Palestinian teen speaks out as riots grip neighbourhood

The family of 16-year-old murdered Palestinian, Mohammed Abu Khdeir stood and watched in horror today, as they heard news that Khdeir had been abducted and later killed, and then as they saw their neighbourhood erupt into some of the worst violence witnessed in years.

According to the Red Cross at least 65 people have been injured in clashes that broke out after Khdeir's charred body was discovered in Jerusalem Forest, west of the city, on Wednesday morning.

Police fear more protests will break out tomorrow and are also preparing for large-scale unrest on Friday after afternoon prayers, as the cycle of violence threatens to get even more out of control.

Details of what happened remain unclear, but after a day of suspense, sources told Middle East Eye that the Israeli authorities are planning to release the body to his family, having decided that Khdeir's murder was nationalist-inspired.

However, Israeli police deny that they have made any official ruling as yet.

The ambiguity has further heightened tensions and left Khdeir's family complaining of the inability to get protection or justice.

A man who said he was Khdeir's cousin, calling himself Nick, told Middle East Eye that he was standing close by when people who appeared to be Jewish settlers jumped out of a vehicle and approached Mohammed, who was about to attend morning prayers Shuafat Street mosque.

They approached Khdeir casually but then jumped him and shoved him into the car before speeding off.

"They asked him for a lighter then they put gas in his eyes. He's a small guy," said Nick.

"They took him, and we called police, we left the police to see the security cameras here, because there a lot all around. They said we need to prove someone took him, and that they weren't sure of our story."

Later this morning police found a badly burned body to the west of the city in Jerusalem Forest but say they're unsure if there's a connection between the two.

Police in East Jerusalem have since refused to release security camera footage that could shed light on the kidnapping.

Another cousin, 30 year-old Mohammed Abu Khdeir, who shares the same name as the slain teen, said that the boy's father, Hussein Abu Khdeir was held by police all day and would not be allowed to go until after his son's body was released.

The family, however, couldn't say why Khdeir's father was being held, although rumours were circulating widely among the community that the police had been trying to get Hussein to sign a waiver saying that the family had killed him.

He told MEE that there was no planned date yet for the funeral, as the family, which is the biggest in Shuaftar, was waiting for Khdeir's remains to be returned.

According to Khdeir's cousin, the teen's mother, Suha, had waited at home all day to see if the remains were her sons, even though the family had been warned that the body was burnt beyond recognition.
Shock in Shuaftar

"The kidnapping and murder is in retaliation to the deaths of those three Israeli teenagers a couple of weeks ago. There's so much tension and pressure from all sides today, it's very tense, and it's a tragedy to see the tension between us and the soldiers," Nick said.

Three Israeli settler teens were abducted earlier this month and were found dead late Monday. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu vowed revenge and blamed Hamas initially for their disappearance and later for their killing.

But, despite the widespread outpouring of grief for the killed settler teens and the cycle of violence which has been sparked by their disappearance, one of Mohammed's best friends, Alladin Ammouri, clearly found it difficult to keep his pain and anger from showing:

"First of all they tortured him. Then he was beaten up. Then he was set ablaze, in the early hours. These are our lives, we're trying to live them," he said.

"The press is lying, saying it's a fight between families. It's not. It's a fight with the police."

Further down the road in the centre of Beit Hanina, one man Middle East Eye spoke to wanted to remain anonymous, but was unequivocal about what had happened.

"The Israelis killed a Palestinian boy. The Israeli's did it. Things are getting very tense around here. It's not safe, be careful."

The uncertainty and outrage quickly spiralled into riots, with some 200 Palestinians taking to the streets of Shuaftar to demand action. They threw stones, while Israeli security services responded with rubber bullets and according to some reports live ammunition, although this could not be independently verified. Tear gas quickly filled the streets, as the local tram stop was set alight and nearby glass shattered.

Parts of the normally busy neighbourhood not enveloped by the violence, came to resemble a ghost town as the tram was shut off, and the Israeli Army put up barriers around the area to "prevent Jews accidentally walking down here" according to police.

A police helicopter was also hovering overhead all day, and medics were on hand to treat the wounded, who kept pouring in throughout the afternoon.

"We've got a friend who died, they took him, and they killed him. This is what we get. We're supposed to have done that," said Ammouri.

"It's Ramadan at the moment and we just hope those who are taking part in Friday prayers on the Temple Mount will come peacefully and respectfully," Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld told MEE.

He said police were experienced in handling clashes and only responded to rioters with non-lethal weapons including stun grenades.

"At the moment we've maintained the situation and the only incidents are the ones you see here in  Shuaftar area, but the rest of Jerusalem is quiet as is the rest of the country, so as far as we're concerned everything is under control."

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to investigate the murder, while condolences from international leaders have poured in.

US Secretary of State John Kerry quickly condemned the killing, labelling it "despicable and senseless," he said while appealing for calm and urging both sides to exercise restraint.

But despite the words of calm, rockets continued to fly on Wednesday, as authorities prepared themselves for further protests from both Palestinians and Israelis and civilian populations on both sides prepared themselves for the possibility of further reprisals.

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/family-murdered-palestinian-teen-speaks-out-riots-grip-neighbourhood/977600580#sthash.aJRtphID.dpuf

[give her dixie]

Report: Israel detained 3,000 Palestinian children since 2010

Israeli forces arrested nearly 3,000 Palestinian children from the beginning of 2010 to mid-2014, the majority of them between the ages of 12 and 15 years old, Addustour newspaper published a new report saying yesterday.

The Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Network (EMHRN)'s report documented dozens of video recorded testimonies of children arrested during the first months of 2014, pointing out that 75 per cent of the detained children are subjected to physical torture and 25 per cent faced military trials.

The report revealed details of the children's suffering, starting with the arbitrary arrests which are in violation of the Convention on the Rights of the Child to which Israel ratified in 1991. The report listed a series of violations practiced by Israeli forces against children during the arrest process itself, where the Israeli forces raid the children's homes aftermidnight as they sleep using actions that terrorise the child and his family, without clear justification or an actual security need.

The Geneva-based watchdog said: "The majority of the detained children were subjected to threats and physical torture including beatings during the investigation. The Israeli authorities responsible for the investigation often use 'isolation' against one in every five detained children, as a means of pressure during the investigations which may extend to 10 days on average and up to 30 days in some cases."

During the "isolation", the report points out, the investigating authorities place the child alone in "narrow cells" and do not allow anyone to meet him, including in some cases his lawyer.

The organisation called on international bodies and human rights organisations to stop Israeli violations against Palestinian children and stressed on the need for Israeli authorities to hold the children's trials in the occupied Palestinian territories to give their families and lawyers the opportunity to meet them and accompany them during the interrogations and to ensure that they are not subjected to torture, and to provide them with fair compensation in case it is demonstrated that their detention was arbitrary.

It called on all parties who have signed the Geneva Convention and related international institutions to "practice the largest possible pressure against Israel, including denying it from financial agreements and aid to immediately stop its human rights violations".

EMHRN researcher Sandra Owen said that at least 1,406 Palestinian children have been killed since 2000, including 263 children under the age of eight and 450 children under the age of 15.

Over the past three weeks, the Israeli army raid more than 1,500 Palestinian homes and places of business and arrested more than 600 Palestinians following the apparent disappearance of three settlers in Hebron.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/12500-report-israel-detains-3000-palestinian-children-annually

[Mike Sheehy]

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.602675

The secretary-general of World Bnei Akiva, Rabbi Noam Perel, called for revenge of the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teens, the bodies of whom were found Monday.
"An entire nation and thousands of years of history demand revenge," Perel posted on his Facebook page, shortly after the bodies were found.

you constantly cite religious extremists on the Israeli side as if this justifies your extremism. Anybody can pick and choose from the words of extremists. Below are some quotes from the Hamas charter........and those are just from their official charter. That is nothing compared to what various crackpot have said. Do really think what some crackpot Mullah says is "evidence" of what muslims think in general? The answer , according to most right thinking people is no. However, as we all know, you are not a good faith actor. Your agenda is to stir up hatred of jews. Period.



http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397

Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah's victory prevails.

The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband's authorization, and a slave without his masters' permission.

(yes..they still believe in slavery  )

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion;

Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims.  "Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep."

The members of other religions must desist from struggling against Islam over sovereignty in this region. For if they were to gain the upper hand, fighting, torture and uprooting would follow; they would be fed up with each other, to say nothing of members of other religions.

Only when they have completed digesting the area on which they will have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion, etc. Their scheme has been laid out in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present [conduct] is the best proof of what is said there.

(yes, they cite a completely fabricated document in their charter  )