The Palestine thread

[muppet]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months

World public opinion is the only weapon they have and that is a notoriously unreliable one. But if used properly it can work, like it did in South Africa.

A rocket versus an F-16 isn't a contest. But only people already sympathetic to Palestinians see that and that includes most Irish people. Unfortunately most of the rest of the world accepts, to some degree, the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle promulgated by Israel. It also adds to the myth that Palestine is as much about Islamic Militancy as it about freedom for Palestinians, this is especially the case when you see where the rockets come from.

[give her dixie]

I don't buy into romantic ideology that makes no logical sense. Gandi and Mandela for me any day, even if the latter had to get it wrong first to understand what was right.

The rocket is an utterly pointless exercise militarily. It achieves nothing on behalf on the Palestinians, other than to ensure more of them die. How is this heroic?

I think it's stupid Muppet but I don't live in a refugee camp in an area that won't be fit for human habitation by 2020.
Israel is run by sadists. There are parallels with Warsaw in WW2. Why do people resist overwhelming force ? why does Gaza get all that punishment? I think it's because they don't comply and they remind Israelis of 1948 and who the land belonged to.
Even if Gaza behaves what's going to happen? They'll still get bombed every 6 months or so. That's Zionism.

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/30/98/cc/3098cc428c5e0ce8cc2d965df22e8a94.jpg

Gandhi is overrated as well. I would go for Dr Ambedkar.

If the rockets were nuclear weapons, I would disagree with firing them, but I could see a military argument (i.e. if I nuke the enemy the attacks on me might stop). But for the rockets I see no pros and  thousands of cons.

What do you expect them to do?

They have been locked up for years and put on a diet via the brutal siege. They can't fish, they can't travel, and if Israel could control the air they breath, they would turn it on and off at will.

The rockets fired from Gaza are mostly in response to brutal actions by the Israelis. The media would have us believe it was the other way around. Wether there are rockets or not from Gaza, Israel still bombs the shit out of it anyway.

While a rocket or 2 does no damage, it at least gives an occupied and oppressed people the feeling that they have stood up to the bully. In the West Bank they throw stones at tanks and bulldozers. It is their way of fighting back. They also get murdered, and they don't fire rockets.

If you were to walk a mile in their shoes, your attitude to the rockets might change.....

I doubt it.

You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies.

Being in the right does not justify every response to those who are in the wrong.

Again I will ask. What should they do? No rockets are been fired in the West Bank and look what is happening there?

60+ Palestinians murdered in the past 10 months

World public opinion is the only weapon they have and that is a notoriously unreliable one. But if used properly it can work, like it did in South Africa.

A rocket versus an F-16 isn't a contest. But only people already sympathetic to Palestinians see that and that includes most Irish people. Unfortunately most of the rest of the world accepts, to some degree, the tit-for-tat nature of the struggle promulgated by Israel. It also adds to the myth that Palestine is as much about Islamic Militancy as it about freedom for Palestinians, this is especially the case when you see where the rockets come from.

Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

[seafoid]

Israel orders dismantling of camera that captured murder of Palestinian boys

On 15 May, Israeli security forces fatally shot Nadim Nuwara, 17, and Muhammad Abu al-Thahir, 16, at a demonstration near the Ofer military prison in the occupied West Bank village of Beitunia. Four days after the killings, on 19 May, Defence for Children International-Palestine (DCI-Palestine) released footage from Zayed's security cameras that showed the boys walking slowly in a calm scene when they were shot.

Now the Israeli military has ordered Fakher Zayed, the man whose security cameras captured the closed circuit TV footage that shows Israeli security forces shooting the two teenage boys, to dismantle his cameras within 24 hours or face legal proceedings/ (The footage and an earlier interview with Zayed can be seen in the DCI-Palestine video above.)

The Israeli military had already confiscated Zayed's recording equipment on 22 May, and on 13 June seized all other recording equipment in the area — such as that owned by other shopkeepers. They now demand that Zayed remove his security camera as well, from which a live stream can be watched but not saved for subsequent viewing or examination

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/charlotte-silver/israel-orders-dismantling-camera-captured-murder-palestinian-boys

They have been confiscating surveillance video equipment in the West Bank all week. They don't want any video evidence of their crimes.

Michael Oren told CNN that the man shown killed on video recently didn't die.

[seafoid]

"You say the rockets do nothing. On the contrary, they present the Israeli leadership with easy propaganda to justify (in their eyes - certainly not mine) their brutal treatment of the Palestinians. There is no logic whatsoever to firing these rockets. The only argument seems to be that it makes them feel better about themselves. There are better and less counter-productive ways to stand up to bullies."

I agree about the futility. There is much international support for Palestinian rights but not where it counts.
I don't expect anything to change until Israel is forced to amend its behaviour. And the only way to do that is via sanctions.
It's a very sad situation for the Jewish religion. 

[give her dixie]

Palestinian dies of heart attack as Israeli troops raid home

An elderly Palestinian man died early Saturday of heart attack during a heated argument with Israeli troops who broke into his house in the village of Haris in Salfit district in the northern West Bank.

Palestinian security sources said Israeli soldiers refused to allow family members of Ali Abed Jabir to take him to hospital for treatment after he suffered a heart attack and eventually died at home. The victim was in his 60s.

The sources explained that dozens of Israeli soldiers stormed Haris village, ransacked several homes and assaulted residents.

Jawad Muhammad Dawood suffered a hand fracture after Israeli troops brutally attacked him and his brother Jawdat during a raid on their home. In addition, seven family members inhaled tear gas after Israeli forces fired a canister in their home.

No detentions were reported in the village.

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=706454

[Mike Sheehy]

Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

one thing they can do is stop religious fundamentalists and anti-semites hijacking their cause.

Seafoid himself put it best

seafoid December 4, 2010 at 4:48 pm    
Because without antisemitism there is no point to Zionism.

no anti-semites and the main justification for Zionism goes away. You and Seafoid are the problem. The root cause

[muppet]

Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

That would be a very good start.

Better still have the Palestinians announce it themselves, rather than have Israel claim they stopped it. As Seafoid said, they have a lot of support around the world while I believe that support for Israel's military campaign is slowly dwindling. That mightn't be happening quick enough for some, but Israel won't be able to continue the slaughter for long in the absence of the ability to point to retaliation.

The Palestinians could also do with a leader who appeals to the outside world and who's CV can resist the inevitable smears. I'm sure yourself and Seafoid would be able to name worthy people but it doesn't matter if the wider world doesn't both know who they are and can't relate to them and their campaign - Mandela for example. 

[seafoid]

Any thoughts on what they should do, apart from not firing rockets?

That would be a very good start.

Better still have the Palestinians announce it themselves, rather than have Israel claim they stopped it. As Seafoid said, they have a lot of support around the world while I believe that support for Israel's military campaign is slowly dwindling. That mightn't be happening quick enough for some, but Israel won't be able to continue the slaughter for long in the absence of the ability to point to retaliation.

The Palestinians could also do with a leader who appeals to the outside world and who's CV can resist the inevitable smears. I'm sure yourself and Seafoid would be able to name worthy people but it doesn't matter if the wider world doesn't both know who they are and can't relate to them and their campaign - Mandela for example.

Most of the would be leaders are in prison.
I think Abbas will go soon and that he will be replaced by someone who will bring Israel to the International Criminal Court.
Israel is very comfortable with rockets from Gaza but it is very uncomfortable with international law.

I would be concerned if I was Israeli. The leadership have no plan B other than to accelerate Jewish settlement of the West Bank.
Calling the world anti-Semitic doesn't seem to work as well as it used to.

Lashing Judaism to the settlement project as the head of the US Reform Judaism congregation did yesterday talking to the US Presbyterian church is ultra dangerous.
Judaism is way better than apartheid.



 

[seafoid]

Here is an interesting development

Companies are already obliged to ensure they aren't involved in any dealings that result in gross human rights violations. They can now be held criminally liable as principals or accessories whenever they do.

Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza has involved looting over a very long time span.
Very little of what Israel does in the Occupied Territories is legal.

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Business/OPTStatement6June2014.pdf

Applicable legal framework – situations of conflict and the OPT
All States are at all times bound to respect, protect, promote and fulfil the human rights enshrined in
international legal instruments to which they are parties, as well as those human rights which are
considered part of customary international law. In international conflicts, international humanitarian
law — including the treaties to which a State is party and those provisions of international
humanitarian law which have become customary international law — also applies. A situation of
military occupation is considered to be a conflict situation even if active hostilities may have ceased or
occur periodically or sporadically.5 A situation of conflict does not release States from their human
rights obligations – these obligations continue to exist alongside international humanitarian law and
provide complimentary and mutually reinforcing protection.

As noted by the International Committee of the Red Cross, humanitarian law standards also apply to
business enterprises in situations of armed conflict.6 International humanitarian law provides some
protection to business personnel7 and assets8 but also imposes obligations on managers and staff not to
breach international humanitarian law, and provides for exposure of individual personnel and the
enterprise to the risk of criminal or civil liability in the event that they do so.9
The situation in the OPT is one of military occupation.10 As the occupying power, Israel is bound by
international human rights law and international humanitarian law.11 This is on account of its

ratification of international human rights and international humanitarian law treaties and also on
account of the fact that some of these standards reflect customary international law or represent
peremptory norms of international law. Article 49 of the Geneva Convention Relative to the
Protection of Civilian Persons in Times of War prohibits the occupying power from transferring parts
of its own civilian population into the territory that it occupies.12 The International Court of Justice,13
the United Nations General Assembly14 the Security Council15 and other international mechanisms
have affirmed that the settlements are illegal under international law. United Nations human rights
treaty bodies have also called on Israel to cease all construction of settlements.16
The Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights in situations of conflict
The Guiding Principles on Business and Human Rights apply to all States and to all business
enterprises, both transnational and others, regardless of their size, sector, location, ownership and
structure.17 The Guiding Principles are based on existing obligations and responsibilities under
international human rights law – they do not create new international law obligations, nor do they limit
or undermine any legal obligations with regard to human rights that a State may have undertaken or to
which it is subject under international law.18

The Guiding Principles are applicable in all operational contexts,19 including in situations of conflict.
The Guiding Principles explicitly recognize that conflict-affected areas present heightened risks of
business involvement in human rights abuses, including "gross human rights abuses",20 and contain
specific provisions for preventing and addressing human rights impact of business operating in conflict
affected areas. While the Guiding Principles do not explicitly address the situations of occupation, an
area under occupation falls within the term "conflict-affected area" in the Guiding Principles.
The Guiding Principles further recognize that in conflict-affected areas, the "host" State may be unable
to protect human rights adequately owing to a lack of effective control, or it may itself be engaged in
human rights abuses.21 Where transnational corporations are involved, their "home" States therefore
have crucial roles to play in assisting both those corporations and host States to ensure that businesses
are not involved with human rights abuse, while neighbouring States can provide important additional
support.22

[seafoid]

Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas accused Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu of hypocrisy regarding the  3 Palestinians murdered by Israel in the last week .
Here's the reply

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPxTgRGiaaQ

Harder and harder to sell shoot to kill to the world. 

[Itchy]

Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.

[muppet]

Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.

This kidnapping emphasises my point.

Palestinians kidnap 3 Israelis, they murder dozens of Palestinians in retaliation. The kidnappers are no heroes to any sane person.

Likewise the guff from Gerry Adams this weekend. No Guildford bomb - no Guildford 4 or Maguire 7 - or other miseries inflicted by the Brits.

[Itchy]

Muppet - you might find you are waiting a while for old Seafood and dicksie to agree the the kidnapping is wrong just as is the ridiculous heavy handed Israeli response.

[seafoid]

Seafood - why don't you tell the Israelis where the missing teenagers are, sure you know everything that's going on over there.

This kidnapping emphasises my point.

Palestinians kidnap 3 Israelis, they murder dozens of Palestinians in retaliation. The kidnappers are no heroes to any sane person.

Likewise the guff from Gerry Adams this weekend. No Guildford bomb - no Guildford 4 or Maguire 7 - or other miseries inflicted by the Brits.

It looks like the Israelis had the plans to trash the West Bank and arrest hundreds of Hamas people in the works well before whatever day the 3 settlers went missing.
Israel wants to kick Hamas out of the Palestinian unity county council.
They probably don't give a f**k about the 3 settlers.
I think they might have got lost on the way to the Cavan-Monaghan Ulster semi final.
Otherwise we don't know where they are or who took them. 

Regarding how Palestinians should behave, Israel offers them a choice of apartheid or ethnic cleansing. No rights.

[muppet]

I suspect you are right, but why give Netanyahu the easy propaganda to silence any critics among the reasonable Israelis?