The Palestine thread

[seafoid]

Israel itself is now a Nakba

[Ball DeBeaver]

What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.

The solution now is one man one vote. If Israelis don't like it they should get the settlers home.

GHD can't answer, so his lap dog does his fighting for him. Coward.

I agree, get the settlers back into Israel.

I'm an Irishman but can't vote in an Irish election, should I go and buy a shit load of petrol and start a revolution? Should I start throwing bricks at cars going in to loyalist areas in the hope I might kill a  protestant kid for no other reason than "he's different to me?"
Should we creep into the bedrooms of planters and murder them in their beds because they shouldn't be here?
Should we attack Africans, Poles, Chinese or Asians just because they don't belong here and should go back to their own country?
No we shouldn't. It's racism/antisemitism at it's lowest and you are helping to perpetuate it. The very things you accuse Israel of is what you are doing right now. You and GHD aren't pro palestinian, you're anti Israeli. Nothing Israel does will ever be enough to satisfy the palestinians and your blood lust and hatred for a jewish state in the middle east.

All you and GHD do is post up rhetoric and bull. How about you both come out and post up your thoughts on how you think Israel and the palestinians can come to an agreed settlement? I've posted my thoughts up a couple of times in this thread and would love to read yours, in your own words. I don't think GHD is man enough to do it because it might just open a few people's eyes to what he really wants to happen to Israel, but you have already stated that you believe that Israel should continue to have a state (with mutually agreed borders with palestine, am I right?), and that is a good start.

One thing we all agree on is that the settlers should get out.

How about you?

[seafoid]

What's your solution, oh wise one? Ack sure its only a few rocks.
Children have been killed by rocks thrown at cars.

The solution now is one man one vote. If Israelis don't like it they should get the settlers home.

GHD can't answer, so his lap dog does his fighting for him. Coward.

I agree, get the settlers back into Israel.

I'm an Irishman but can't vote in an Irish election, should I go and buy a shit load of petrol and start a revolution? Should I start throwing bricks at cars going in to loyalist areas in the hope I might kill a  protestant kid for no other reason than "he's different to me?"
Should we creep into the bedrooms of planters and murder them in their beds because they shouldn't be here?
Should we attack Africans, Poles, Chinese or Asians just because they don't belong here and should go back to their own country?
No we shouldn't. It's racism/antisemitism at it's lowest and you are helping to perpetuate it. The very things you accuse Israel of is what you are doing right now. You and GHD aren't pro palestinian, you're anti Israeli. Nothing Israel does will ever be enough to satisfy the palestinians and your blood lust and hatred for a jewish state in the middle east.

All you and GHD do is post up rhetoric and bull. How about you both come out and post up your thoughts on how you think Israel and the palestinians can come to an agreed settlement? I've posted my thoughts up a couple of times in this thread and would love to read yours, in your own words. I don't think GHD is man enough to do it because it might just open a few people's eyes to what he really wants to happen to Israel, but you have already stated that you believe that Israel should continue to have a state (with mutually agreed borders with palestine, am I right?), and that is a good start.

One thing we all agree on is that the settlers should get out.

How about you?

Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.
I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

The outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.

It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.

Agreed. Next.....................

I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

Nobody knows, not even Israel/palestinians. The settlers are being used by the Israeli government as leverage. Their thinking is that the more violence there is from the palestinians, the more they're going to build. Wrong way to go about it, but if they stop now, then they are going to look weak. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I think they should make step by step withdrawls based on the ongoing security situation. The longer there's peace, the more settlers get shipped out. If they won't move then tell them they will be governed by PA. Their choice.
If you want to talk about anyone becoming more extremist, then look no further than the palestinians. They are taught in all the PA schools that all of Israel is palestine and that they are going to drive the jews dogs out. They are taught that martyrdom is virtuous and those that kill jews are heroes. Not very peaceful or conciliatory, is it. 

The outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.

The palestinians are in the process of forming their own state. They were offered a state of their own (far larger than what they have now) by the UN in 1947, but refused to accept any jewish state, even at the expense of not having one of their own. Who's fault is that?




Why no land swaps? If it is advantageous for the continued long term security of both sides to swap land, then why not?
Lets be realistic, Israel is not going to go back to the green line. The security wall is roughly what Israel is realistically going to accept, bar a few land swaps here and there.
Compensation for those made refugees by the 1948 war should only be considered if all refugees are compensated. That means anyone forced from their homes in Israel, or in any arab country due to the war in Israel. Many thousands were forced from their homes in neighbouring countries as a direct result of the 48 war. It's only fair, don't you think?

It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.

If it was, I'd be the biggest antisemite out there.



**edit. map added**

[seafoid]

Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights.

Agreed. Next.....................

I don't know what is going to happen to Israel. The settlers are not going anywhere. I think Zionism will collapse. It is hard to see the younger generation of US Jews continuing to support Israel as it becomes more and more extremist.

Nobody knows, not even Israel/palestinians. The settlers are being used by the Israeli government as leverage. Their thinking is that the more violence there is from the palestinians, the more they're going to build. Wrong way to go about it, but if they stop now, then they are going to look weak. They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Personally I think they should make step by step withdrawls based on the ongoing security situation. The longer there's peace, the more settlers get shipped out. If they won't move then tell them they will be governed by PA. Their choice.
If you want to talk about anyone becoming more extremist, then look no further than the palestinians. They are taught in all the PA schools that all of Israel is palestine and that they are going to drive the jews dogs out. They are taught that martyrdom is virtuous and those that kill jews are heroes. Not very peaceful or conciliatory, is it. 

The outlines of a settlement have been clear since 1967. Get all the settlers out and let the Palestinians have their own state. No land swaps. Compensation for 1948.

The palestinians are in the process of forming their own state. They were offered a state of their own (far larger than what they have now) by the UN in 1947, but refused to accept any jewish state, even at the expense of not having one of their own. Who's fault is that?
Why no land swaps? If it is advantageous for the continued long term security of both sides to swap land, then why not?
Lets be realistic, Israel is not going to go back to the green line. The security wall is roughly what Israel is realistically going to accept, bar a few land swaps here and there.
Compensation for those made refugees by the 1948 war should only be considered if all refugees are compensated. That means anyone forced from their homes in Israel, or in any arab country due to the war in Israel. Many thousands were forced from their homes in neighbouring countries as a direct result of the 48 war. It's only fair, don't you think?

It is not antisemitic to say the settlers should f**k off back to Israel.

If it was, I'd be the biggest antisemite out there.

The settlers are not being used as leverage. They are there to ensure the Palestinians never have a state.
That is just nuts. Judaism doesn't understand. The Holocaust does not excuse the occupation. It never did.

So as the Palestinians will not get a state and there are 700,000 Jews squatting on the west Bank, it's going to come down to sanctions.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a civil war in Israel.

In 1948 the Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians. It was not a Jewish country. It was Palestine. It was easier to seize than land in Europe. But it was a stupid place to build a Jewish state.
The Arab world now recognises the right of Israel to exist but Israel wants all the land. It is very hard to see Israel pulling that one off. 
 
If the Sephardim want compo let them go to wherever they came from. Israel owes the Palestinians money for 1948.

"Israel is not going back to the Green Line"

Why not?
anyway there won't be a Palestinian state so it is irrelevant. 

[muppet]

Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.

You are a Catholic aren't you?

Not right now, no.

Is it a pre-requisite for posting?

Not at all.

It is just something that only an Irish Catholic, in the Dara O'Briain sense of the words, would say.

[Ball DeBeaver]

The settlers are not being used as leverage. They are there to ensure the Palestinians never have a state.
That is just nuts. Judaism doesn't understand. The Holocaust does not excuse the occupation. It never did.

So as the Palestinians will not get a state and there are 700,000 Jews squatting on the west Bank, it's going to come down to sanctions.
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a civil war in Israel.

Every time there's an upsurge in violence, Israel approves more settlements. Leverage.

Who is going to be the ones involved in this "civil war" you predict?

In 1948 the Zionists dispossessed the Palestinians. It was not a Jewish country. It was Palestine. It was easier to seize than land in Europe. But it was a stupid place to build a Jewish state.

I hate to tell you, but it was a British territory ruled by Britain, not palestinians. Where would it be better to have a jewish state than their spiritual home, Bolivia, Sweden, Australia? The creation of a jewish state was agreed upon by the world community, with a palestinian state (something palestinians have never had in their history) to be created in tandem.

The Arab world now recognises the right of Israel to exist but Israel wants all the land. It is very hard to see Israel pulling that one off.

Please tell me you don't really believe that.
SOME arab states publicly tolerate Israel while others are openly hostile, even to the point of threatening to wipe it off the face of the earth. The arab states blame Israel every time their citizens dare to revolt against their governments as part of the arab spring.
There are jewish extremists who believe that all Judea, Samaria and Gaza are theirs, but they shouldn't be taken seriously.
 

If the Sephardim want compo let them go to wherever they came from. Israel owes the Palestinians money for 1948.

As the "shepardim" were forced out as a direct result of the conflict, then they are more entitled to compensation than any 3rd/4th generation palestinian born in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or anywhere else who has never even set foot in "palestine." The neighbouring arab states that attacked Israel and forced out their jewish population are as much a part of this whole sorry mess as anyone. It's time they took responsibility for their part in all of this. Quid pro quo.

"Israel is not going back to the Green Line"

Why not?
anyway there won't be a Palestinian state so it is irrelevant. 

Errrrr, then you need to get on to the UN and Google pretty damn quick then, because they are under the illusion there is. There is a palestinian state. Not the one some people envisage, but then again, the worlds not perfect, is it. It is a fledgling state that has much work to do to fully integrate, but I wish it well.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Oh sweet jesus and all the saints.


Prove to me that the tooth fairy exists. I demand photos and a sisgned confession.

You are a Catholic aren't you?

Not right now, no.

Is it a pre-requisite for posting?

Not at all.

It is just something that only an Irish Catholic, in the Dara O'Briain sense of the words, would say.

Not that my religion (or more specifically, lack of it) is important, but why do you even bring the subject up? Does my view count for less because of my lack of religious conviction?

NO.

I don't ask anyone if they receive the sacrament or if they're handcuffed to the alter rails before engaging in debate so I would appreciate it if the religious persuasions of posters was ignored.

[seafoid]

"Everyone living under Israeli rule should have the same rights."

Agreed.

So the Palestinians have the right of return

I agree

As to where the Jewish state should have been built, I would say Galicia.
Where they wore those furry hats.

But not in the Levant.

US ambassador to Baghdad in 1947 said it would be a f**king mess. He was so right.
And who were the Brits to decide ?

[seafoid]

Beaver
Spiritual home my hole. If a group of irish americans 6th generation felt a spiritual link to cavan, came over and murdered everyone in killeshandra would they be entitled to the county? Of course they wouldnt.

[Ball DeBeaver]

No, but it would be a good start.

The Palestinians are claiming right of return for 3rd/4th generation refugees. Is that right?
I think anyone who lost their home should be either fully compensated (at today's prices) or have their property back. Generations born outside their parental homeland have no right to return to somewhere that was never theirs. Only those born there should have the "right" to live there.

[Count 10]

You have more chance of understanding women!

[seafoid]

No, but it would be a good start.

The Palestinians are claiming right of return for 3rd/4th generation refugees. Is that right?
I think anyone who lost their home should be either fully compensated (at today's prices) or have their property back. Generations born outside their parental homeland have no right to return to somewhere that was never theirs. Only those born there should have the "right" to live there.

Beaver

Tell us again how long the Jews lived in Diaspora and how old the Jewish claim was. I think it was a bit longer than 3 generations but perhaps you can confirm. 

[Ball DeBeaver]

Here ya go Seafoid, a wee story to brighten your. Jews being baton charged by Israeli police.



Water cannons used on thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews protesting against army drafting their men which could 'destroy their way of life'
Thousands of protestors clashed with police in heated protest
Rabbis warn drafting men from community will uproot community
Government wants to increase drafting those who have previously been exempt because of religious ground to reduce national burden
Most Israeli men and women called for three years service when they turn 18


By Anna Edwards

PUBLISHED:04:48, 17 May 2013 | UPDATED:04:48, 17 May 2013

Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Jews clashed with police as they protested in Jerusalem against plans to enlist men from their community into the military.

The controversial proposal is supported by the secular majority pushing for a more equal share of the burden on Israeli society.

A sea of black coats - the traditional attire of ultra-Orthodox men - engulfed Jerusalem streets near the city's military draft bureau yesterday, where the crowd heard rabbis warn that army service would irreparably harm their way of life.

Tens of Thousands of ultra-Orthodox Israelis have clashed with police after protesting against newly proposed government legislation that would see them drafted into the military

Passionate protest: Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said at least 20,000 protesters took part

Face off: Israeli riot police stand guard as ultra-Orthodox demonstrators set bins on fire in Jerusalem

'The government wants to uproot (our traditions) and secularise us, they call it a melting pot, but people cannot be melted. You cannot change our (way of life),' Rabbi David Zycherman told the crowd in an anguished plea.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's coalition government has committed to increase drafting ultra-Orthodox men, most of whom receive exemptions on religious grounds, in order to share the national burden and reduce pressure on the middle classes.

The party of Finance Minister Yair Lapid, Netanyahu's main coalition partner, received wide support at the polls in January on a pledge to resist demands by religious parties and to spread the load of army service and taxation more evenly.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said at least 20,000 protesters took part and about a dozen arrests were made when violence erupted and men hurled bottles and stones at officers, some on horseback, who used stun grenades to quell the unrest.



A water cannon was also deployed as protesters set alight garbage bins, a regular occurrence at ultra-Orthdox demonstrations

Most ultra-Orthodox men receive exemptions from army draft on religious grounds

The government wants to change the rules on army drafts in order to share the national burden and reduce pressure on the middle classes

The issue of drafting ultra-Orthodox men into the military is part of a broader struggle between the secular majority and ultra-Orthodox minority over lifestyle in the Jewish state

A water cannon was also deployed as protesters set alight garbage bins, a regular occurrence at ultra-Orthdox demonstrations. At least six officers required medical treatment and two were taken to hospital, Rosenfeld added.

An Israel Radio commentator said the participants came from the most hardline elements of the ultra-Orthodox community who shun any compromise with the authorities on army service and even refuse to recognise the Jewish state for religious reasons.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews make up some 10 percent of Israel's population of 8 million. Most do not work, they receive military service exemptions and rely heavily on state subsidies for their religious studies and to support their families.

About 60 percent of ultra-Orthodox men engage in full-time Jewish religious studies, keeping them out of the labour market.

About 60 percent of ultra-Orthodox men engage in full-time Jewish religious studies, keeping them out of the labour market

On Tuesday, the cabinet approved a budget draft that will slash spending and hike taxes this year and next to rein in a growing budget deficit. Lapid has warned that failure to implement public spending cuts could cause an economic collapse.

Israel's budget deficit was 4.2 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) last year - more than double its initial target -due to overspending by the previous government and lower-than-expected tax revenues as the economy slowed.

The issue of drafting ultra-Orthodox men into the military is part of a broader struggle between the secular majority and ultra-Orthodox minority over lifestyle in the Jewish state.

Most Israeli men and women are called up for military service for up to three years when they turn 18. However, exceptions are made for most Arab citizens of Israel, as well as ultra-Orthodox men and women.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325916/Ultra-Orthodox-Jews-protest-army-draft-destroy-way-life.html#ixzz2TXz6Pk00
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[Count 10]

Jeez it's a wonder there weren't airstrikes like they do in Gaza