The Palestine thread

[Count 10]

Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country and the reason is that the US vetoes any "sanctions" against them. If truth be told no one really cares about the Palestinians .....yes now and again there is the odd lip service paid. What really gets me is the utter ambivalence shown by other Arab nations....basically they pretend that they are all united under Islam but underneath it all they hate each other every bit as much as Israel do. A very sad state of affairs and both sides are losers in all of this.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.

The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   

What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation? 

Do you think civilian Army radio staff are legitimate military targets? 
And has the war on terror changed the rules of war in your opinion?

They weren't civilians. Hamas proudly declared they were members. "Jihadi martyrs"
Civilians aren't the same as soldiers or members of terrorist organisations. A cleaner in an army installation is completely different from a soldier in the same installation. Your argument holds no water.
Any soldier working for army radio can be called a legitimate target.

[seafoid]

Big story in the US. A museum honouring journalists killed in war has bowed to Israeli pressure and refuses to honour 2 Palestinians who worked for a TV station linked to Hamas.

http://www.newseum.org/press-info/press-materials/press-releases/2013/journalist-memorial-update.html

"Terrorism has altered the landscape in many areas, including the rules of war and engagement, law, investigative and interrogation techniques, and the detention of enemy combatants. Journalism is no exception."

So say the Assads decide Marie Colvin was a terrorist her death is kosher.

So you believe that terrorists (who's day job was in a news organisation) should be honoured the same as a neutral journalist, who looks for nothing more than the truth?

Bizzare world you live in.

The Sinaloa cartel in Mexico murder journalists too. So easy to call them terrorists.
Ordinary Jews need the protection of laws, Beaver. They won't always have the IDF.

The Brits called Pat  Finucane a terrorist, you know. the UDF could have murdered Poilin ni Chiarain with that Israeli approach.I think Israel is going really deep into the darkness with this.

And who decides who is a terrorist?   

What in the name of jehovah are you babbling on about? They were both claimed as members of Hamas, by Hamas.

Are you trying to say Hamas are some community group and aren't really a terrorist organisation? 

Do you think civilian Army radio staff are legitimate military targets? 
And has the war on terror changed the rules of war in your opinion?

They weren't civilians. Hamas proudly declared they were members. "Jihadi martyrs"
Civilians aren't the same as soldiers or members of terrorist organisations. A cleaner in an army installation is completely different from a soldier in the same installation. Your argument holds no water.
Any soldier working for army radio can be called a legitimate target.

More horseshit from Arutz 7 . tut tut. 


The two men's families, interviewed separately, said the men were neither participating in the fighting nor members of any armed group. Human Rights Watch found no evidence, including during visits to the men's homes, to contradict that claim. Hamas's armed wing, al-Qassam Brigades, has not put either man on its official list of killed fighters– an unlikely omission if the men had been playing a military role.

Are Fox reporters fair game the next time the Yanks go to war? 

[seafoid]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

[Ball DeBeaver]

Can I ask a stupid question please? This thread, just like the conflict there, seems to be a constant retrenchment of the same opinions. A bit of quiet, and then another mad flurry.

It is absolutely ridiculous to see the same incident being portrayed in diametrically opposed manners from both sides. How is anyone not on the ground supposed to know who to believe?

So, my question is, "Is there a UN observer or mission in Israel, Gaza and/or Palestine?" If so, what do they actually say? I'd love to hear a neutral's perspective, and I'm sorry, but vested interests on either side are not neutral. I don't want to read what the IDF say, or what some 'witness' who may well have been a participant in an attack says. What do the UN say? And if the UN are not there, why not? Who or what is stopping them?

Apologies if this is Middle-East 101, but no harm to focus the mind sometimes.

Israel has violated more UN resolutions than any other country and the reason is that the US vetoes any "sanctions" against them. If truth be told no one really cares about the Palestinians .....yes now and again there is the odd lip service paid. What really gets me is the utter ambivalence shown by other Arab nations....basically they pretend that they are all united under Islam but underneath it all they hate each other every bit as much as Israel do. A very sad state of affairs and both sides are losers in all of this.

Every arab country the palestinians have gone to as refugees refuses to let them integrate into the community, even going as far as to restrict travel, work and medicine. They deny the palestinians the exact same things they castigate Israel for.  Arab nations have a long history of grand gestures of promising aid to the palestinians, then refusing to cough up when it comes to the crunch. It suits the arab nations to use the palestinian refugees as pawns in their game of oneupmanship against Israel.

[mylestheslasher]

Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.

[seafoid]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.

So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?
What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?
Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?
And where are the new rules of war defined? 

[Ball DeBeaver]

Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

Don't give me that nonsense. A knife or home made grad rocket will kill you just as dead as a $10mil guided missile.

Two years ago 2 palestinian youths murdered 5 members of the Fogel family armed with nothing but knives. (up until they stole the father's AR15 which they used after they slit their throats) Suicide bombers have murdered dozens with simple bombs strapped to them. The technology involved in the actual armaments Israel has at it's disposal has no bearing on the threat they face from an enemy possessing comparatively primative weapons.

[mylestheslasher]

Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?

[seafoid]

Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

Don't give me that nonsense. A knife or home made grad rocket will kill you just as dead as a $10mil guided missile.

Two years ago 2 palestinian youths murdered 5 members of the Fogel family armed with nothing but knives. (up until they stole the father's AR15 which they used after they slit their throats) Suicide bombers have murdered dozens with simple bombs strapped to them. The technology involved in the actual armaments Israel has at it's disposal has no bearing on the threat they face from an enemy possessing comparatively primative weapons.

Thank god for the Fogel family. Always get a mention anytime anyone brings up Israel's weaponry.
Gideon Levy in today 's Ha'aretz notes the IDF is 5 times bigger than Israel's capacity to pay for it. All the wars it needs to justify its bloated  existence are danger to the ordinary people of Israel.

[seafoid]

Ball debeaver - Are you saying you don't believe Israel has targeted civilians? In my opinion Israel is a rogue regime that murders men, women and children for its own selfish reasons. The rest of the world knows this hence the UN resolutions but the problem is the US, with its very powerful Jewish lobby, stops any serious action being taken. Before you start I know that Hamas have done and continue to do some horrific things also but we have to apply some scale to this. Israels murders with the top of the range weapons of mass destruction, has a nuclear arsenal and think it is fair enough to nuke a market full of people if some Hamas target is also there. Hamas fires the equivalent of a Cap gun in response.

I don't understand how anyone could take the side of Israel in this.

You would probably have to be paid, really.
The spin is really out of date. How anyone can say "Israel wants peace" with a straight face is beyond me.

[Ball DeBeaver]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.

So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?

NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?

As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?

No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.
[/quote]

Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?

[seafoid]

Beaver

Has the war on terror done away with the need for the Geneva conventions and the rules of war in your view?

There are different types of war requiring very different measures to counteract the threat since the Geneva conventions were drawn up. The basic rules apply.

So did Hamas have the right under the new rules of war to execute Shalit?

NO. Shalit was a captured soldier, protected under the Geneva convention.

What about torture? Does Israel have the right to torture prisoners?

As much right as Hamas and Fatah have. Guess who uses torture more on palestinians. I'll give you a clue, it isn't Israel.

Does Hizballah have the right under the new rules of war to starve Jewish prisoners to death?

No one has the right to starve any prisoners to death, but if a prisoner goes on hunger strike, then he can bloody well starve.

Why do you hold Israel to a higher standard of human rights than the palestinians. If you were as concerned about palestinian rights as you are about being anti Israeli then you would be more concerned about getting rid of Hamas and Fatah who you know fine rightly are bleeding them dry.


I've a question for you. Do you believe the state of Israel has the right to stay where they are, within the pre 67 borders?
[/quote]I do. Pay compensation to the Palestinians and fire away.
Those people have been there for a while now and they have nowhere else to go. The kids there now- it is not their fault their grandparents ethnically cleansed the natives in 1948.
But they have to stop blackguarding the Palestinians.

And the settlers can f**k off.

Israel has signed international treaties on human rights and it's rich and calls itself a democracy and it's OECD and Peres told the president of Cameroon that "a Jews and apartheid do not go together" so it's right to hold it to its commitments.   

[Ball DeBeaver]

Where did I say that a knife wasn't a lethal weapon? You avoided the question I asked I notice. Do you mind if I ask you another question - how do you come to know so much about Israel/Palestinian relations. To you go there?

Plain and simple, no, they have not targetted civilians. They have killed civilians while targetting terrorists, and that is a complete and utter tragedy and a shame, but I don't believe they have deliberately targetted civilians. It does nothing to advance their aims or desires. Why would they? I believe they need to be more sure of their intelligence before ordering a strike, but you can never be 100% sure when you fire a missile. Israel is hampered by the fact that palestinian terrorists embed themselves in civilian buildings as a means of defense and are well known for using women and children as  human shields.