Armagh v Cavan (Sun - 02-06-19) Clones

[David McKeown]

Having watched the Down match twice (once at it once on tv) and the Cavan game on TV. I can honestly say I no longer know the rules of Gaelic football such is the inconsistency of approach taken between referees in games let alone between games. Then to top it all off Martin McHugh starts lauding the quality of refereeing.  The situation isn't helped by an opaque rulebook with contradictory guides. After the Down game I went looking for a few specific rules I wanted clarification on. Namely what if any rules from the National league were retained, what the procedure is for a substitution after a black card. What the rule is on persistent fouling and what the duties of the umpires and/or linesmen are. I've either not been able to find them or I've found conflicting information. None of that assists referees. 

Anyway rant over but with the above in mind I thought the following about the match.

1.  Armagh the better side until the sending off and should have won.

2. The refereeing was atrocious towards both teams.

3. The first black card was wrong.

4. Both red cards were right but there could have been more.

5.  Cavan and Armagh were both involved with dirty cheap hits..

6. Armagh were tactically poor particularly on kick outs but retain some very good footballers. I just worry we area less than the sum of our parts.

7.  Jarly OG will be a big miss next week and could be the difference.

[Tony Baloney]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

[tonto1888]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

It is certainly a worry. At no stage during that game, or the down game for that matter, was I confident of seeing the game out

[Rufus T Firefly]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

It is an underlying issue which now dates back at least two years. We were having this conversation when Tipperary beat us with the last kick of the ball in the last match of the 2017 league. There is no doubt there is a mental fragility there.

[tonto1888]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

It is an underlying issue which now dates back at least two years. We were having this conversation when Tipperary beat us with the last kick of the ball in the last match of the 2017 league. There is no doubt there is a mental fragility there.

It is strange as we have gotten over the line in a couple of close games also

[brokencrossbar1]

Watching the game after listening to it on the radio I thought we did ok.  It was a good game but that was becuase it was 2 evenly matched teams who both tried to play the game.  I personally thought the ref was fair and got most things right.  First black card was wrong and Grimley was a bit lucky but bar that he let the game flow and it wasn't really a dirty game anyway. 

From an Armagh point of view kickouts are killing us.  There needs to be work done to sort that out.  We had an extra man and could not isolate one person for a short kick out and that was a worry.  The game intelligence and leadership on the field is lacking and that was the same against Down.  This is something experience should bring but there was experience on the field in Shields, Donaghy and Forker so they should really have been taking control but they weren't.

Burns was excellent in open play and covering the ground but in many ways midfield was blitzed also.  It was obviously Grimley's first game in a while so hopefully that will have brought him on a lot.  I also think that a start for Crealy in place of Grugan might assist in the MF area and really should be considered as he has done well in both games since he has come in.

Replay is in Cavan's favour in my view.  They would have been slight favourites on Sunday and generally favourites win replays.  If Burns is definitely out then I reckon it will be a Cavan win with a bit to spare but it all comes down to who learns the most from the drawn game.

[Applesisapples]

Some serious Groupthink going on among Armagh supporters here. McVeety is at fault for Morgan hitting him in the face. Cavan took out the Armagh player at the throw despite the fact that he ran into his own man and concussed himself. Grimley innocently went to draw the boot on a loose ball and had no idea there was a 6'6" man in bright blue going down to gather the ball.

Don't convince yourselves the score was different or you might miss the replay.

Only one you are incorrect here was Grimley, in my view Cavan player went down on the ball, Grimley had already committed to kick and yellow was correct. No intent just mistimed.

[David McKeown]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

Maybe because I was only watching after listening to it I didn't get the impression Cavan were ever there to be killed off the way Down were. Obviously over the last couple of years what you describe has been a major problem but I think it was more pronounced in other games. For example against Meath this year Armagh valiantly fought themselves back into the game then changed tactics and were blown away. Similarly against Kildare well in command then changed tactics so to answer your question based on the rest of the year I'd have serious concerns over the management but on Sunday only those concerns wouldn't be as pronounced as Cavan seemed to improve rather than an overt tactical change from Armagh changing the game.

[Keyser soze]

As a neutral I thought the referee was abysmal to both sides. As Colm O'Rourke says 'wee men shouldn't be refereeing big games'. It now appears that any incidental contact is deemed a free, [Aidan Forker got awarded a free for no actual contact whatsoever], and usually a yellow card as well. Think there was something like 12 yellows 2 reds and a black in this game and it was by no means a dirty game.

These vertically challenged referees, of which there is a disproportionately high number in GAA, do not have the stature to control the game and therefore just blow absolutely everything and use cards to control the match in case it would get out of hand.

IMO only Donaghy deserved a straight red yesterday for a sneaky hit and about half the frees awarded should have been waved on. The game is dead if referees are blowing a free for a player handing off someone tackling them., It's a mans game let them sort it out themselves. 

[Taylor]

As a neutral I thought the referee was abysmal to both sides. As Colm O'Rourke says 'wee men shouldn't be refereeing big games'. It now appears that any incidental contact is deemed a free, [Aidan Forker got awarded a free for no actual contact whatsoever], and usually a yellow card as well. Think there was something like 12 yellows 2 reds and a black in this game and it was by no means a dirty game.

These vertically challenged referees, of which there is a disproportionately high number in GAA, do not have the stature to control the game and therefore just blow absolutely everything and use cards to control the match in case it would get out of hand.

IMO only Donaghy deserved a straight red yesterday for a sneaky hit and about half the frees awarded should have been waved on. The game is dead if referees are blowing a free for a player handing off someone tackling them., It's a mans game let them sort it out themselves.

Because that would work well in the modern game 

If referees took that approach every game would descend into a farce with rows breaking out all over the pitch

[mackers]

David there have been pages and pages now on refereeing and hits and cheap shots but is the fact that Armagh appear incapable of killing off opposition not a bigger worry? Are they lacking leadership on the pitch to finish the job? Is the problem on the sideline?

It was very obvious sitting in the McGrane stand that all but one player didn't want the ball when we were trying to play keep ball in those dying minutes.  A number of players stood beside their markers and didn't give the player in possession an option.  The one player who tried to lead and drive us forward was Soupy.  In fairness to management there's nothing you can do in that situation if lads aren't willing to show for the ball.  I presume that this will be shown to the players in the video analysis during the week and the players (bar Soupy) will get a rocket up their holes!

[Keyser soze]

As a neutral I thought the referee was abysmal to both sides. As Colm O'Rourke says 'wee men shouldn't be refereeing big games'. It now appears that any incidental contact is deemed a free, [Aidan Forker got awarded a free for no actual contact whatsoever], and usually a yellow card as well. Think there was something like 12 yellows 2 reds and a black in this game and it was by no means a dirty game.

These vertically challenged referees, of which there is a disproportionately high number in GAA, do not have the stature to control the game and therefore just blow absolutely everything and use cards to control the match in case it would get out of hand.

IMO only Donaghy deserved a straight red yesterday for a sneaky hit and about half the frees awarded should have been waved on. The game is dead if referees are blowing a free for a player handing off someone tackling them., It's a mans game let them sort it out themselves.

Because that would work well in the modern game 

If referees took that approach every game would descend into a farce with rows breaking out all over the pitch

I was thinking more like the way hurling is refereed where a lot more physicality is let go. Don't see too many rows breaking out all over as a result.

And surely anything would work better than the fiasco we have at the minute, players going down under minimal contact knowing they will get a free... joke.

[smelmoth]

Watched the first 50 mins on tv last night. Yip our tackling is poor at times. Cavan's wasn't any better. Also a very evident trend of Cavan buying frees by initiating a tangle of arms or illegal fend off. Refs need to get wise to it. Agree that Forker bought a free with what is euphemistically referred to as anticipating contact but is in fact a dive.

The first 50 mins has also completely confirmed my first impression that our kick out strategy is something akin to suicide starting at the foot and working upwards. That has to change

[Armagh18]

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299977

This sums up the mentality under McGeeney, he has the Armagh team running about with the chest out, constantly delivering late hits and up to aul dirt non stop and then when they're caught it's a crying match trying to get off with it.
McGeeney himself should have been banned for his blatant shoulder on McKernan the last day out. Embarrassing stuff appealing this.

Dry your eyes

[Westside]

What's with the Armagh obsession with 'crying'? Telling people on here to stop crying. Giving out about players 'crying'. Telling people to dry their eyes.

Is this where the oppressed rage comes from that causes the violent outbursts we saw on Sunday?