Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[APM]

Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, in front of poor crowds with little to no interest. Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately.
It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

The Championship has been like this since day dot.  Weaker teams have been dumped out routinely by stronger teams.  The quality and competitiveness should improve as the competition progresses.  Unseeded players don't win often in the first round of Wimbledon (some don't even win a game or a set) against the best players.  However, you do get the odd upset and that's what the underdogs live for. 

I would make several changes though to the existing system.  Firstly, I would seed the teams based on league performance both in the provincial championship and the qualifiers.  We shouldn't really have a situation where weaker teams (like London in 2013) reach the provincial final due to being on the easy side of the draw, while Roscommon, Mayo and Galway knock eachother out.  Same for the qualifiers; it is wrong to have two All-Ireland contenders knocked out in the first round and finding themselves pitted against each other in the first round of the qualifiers, while say Wicklow progresses because they beat London.

In Leinster for example, there shouldn't be an open draw (I know it's not open at the moment, but can see no sense in putting Meath in the preliminary round).  The four highest ranked teams in the league shouldn't enter the competition until the QF stage.  The other six teams can play-off for the right to get through - again the Leinster preliminary round should be seeded with the Top 4 ranked teams in the league playing the bottom four ranked teams (top playing bottom, second playing second last, third playing 3rd last). That would at least mean that the teams coming into to play in quarter finals would at least be there on some kind of merit. 

Secondly, I would change the qualifier system to ensure that the point at which you enter the qualifiers is based not on the stage you reach in your provincial championship, but based on the number of games you have won in your province.

Teams that lose their first game should go into the 1st round of the qualifiers.   
Teams that win one game and lose one game in their province, should go into the 2nd round of the qualifiers.
Teams that win two games and lose one game should go into the 3rd round of the qualifiers

This would mean that Cork, who are now in a Munster Final, by virtue of hammering Limerick, should join the second round of the qualifiers if they lose to Kerry. This would reward a team like Limerick who if they made a Munster Final this year would have done so by beating Tipp and Cork.

[trailer]

Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?

[five points]

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

[Keyser soze]

Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?

Tiering isn't about investing in weaker teams, it's about investing more in the stronger teams.

[trailer]

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

They are in hurling. What's the difference? I'm not short sighted enough to think Tyrone will always dine at the top table. Look at Armagh Down, Meath, Cork etc.

[trailer]

Trailer I'm intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Can anyone make a positive case for the maintaining the current systems? Leaving out future proposals why should we keep what we have?

Tiering isn't about investing in weaker teams, it's about investing more in the stronger teams.

I disagree but even if that turns out to be true, nobody is investing in weaker teams at the minute, so what have they got to lose?

[five points]

Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

They are in hurling. What's the difference? I'm not short sighted enough to think Tyrone will always dine at the top table. Look at Armagh Down, Meath, Cork etc.

Maybe fix the ills of the Tyrone hurlers before you drag half the football counties in Ireland down to their level.

[Rossfan]

Jasus Trailer must have great powers 

[trailer]

Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

[APM]

The format of this makes replying to you point difficult but I will do my best.

I know tiering will not do away with bad games. And anyone who says it will is telling lies. What it will do is minimise them.
Attendances - 5000 at Tyrone Antrim. Something similar at the Munster Championship semi finals. Tickets still available for the Dublin games.
Ok yes Dublin is a monster. You're stretching with 5 or 6 teams in Leinster.  What's the excuse in Munster. What did Kerry beat Cork by last year??
Yes it could be. If only we'd accept that the current setup isn't helping anyone. Radical change is what is needed.
Tiering helps everyone. If you want to invest in weaker counties then you need to raise money. That can only be done by offering a better product.

Easy for you to say when your own county won't be at the receiving end.

Fully agree FivePoints! Although you mightn't like what I have said above about seeding.  But at least seeding isn't the same as saying "f**k off and die" which is effectively what tiering is about - out of sight - out of mind.  How much coverage has the media given to the McDonagh Cup, the Ring Cup, Rackard Cup etc?  This isn't about an agenda for weaker counties, its about a media agenda. 

Trailer, you need to be careful in what they wish for.  Before 1986 Tyrone had never been in an AIF and only won 4 Ulsters - it is not impossible that when Mickey goes, there could be a serious readjustment that the county will struggle with.  As we have seen with Derry, Armagh, Down, Meath, Cork and Offaly, once strong counties can suffer from a serious fall from grace and in a province like Ulster, its all the more possible. 

[Keyser soze]

Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers 

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly

[imtommygunn]

Funny you mention it APM  - the GAA has started showing McDonagh cup games live on GAA now though up until now showed nothing.

[lenny]

Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers 

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly

A good argument might be that for over 100 years we have had over a dozen or so counties whose season has been over by May or June having had 1 or 2 matches (some might even get 3 now with the back door). It's not enough to just say these counties need to get their act together. A tiered system will give them the hope of a competition that they can progress and go deep in. As opposed to playing in matches where they go in hoping to keep the margin to single figures. The posters on here seem to think that players need to have the prospect of playing one of the glamour teams. Those games just aren't appealing any more. Tyrone are one of the best supported teams around and their game v Antrim had 5,000 at it. The question is would the Antrim players prefer to be hammered in games like that or play in a junior championship where they have a decent chance of winning, building confidence and progressing up to an intermediate championship. My opinion is that they would prefer the latter.

[APM]

Funny you mention it APM  - the GAA has started showing McDonagh cup games live on GAA now though up until now showed nothing.

Curse of the commentator!!

[Keyser soze]

Tbf Tyrone have a number of new hurling clubs and are making a start.

Sure we can all just pretend everything is grand with the football. It's only a matter of time before Antrim storm to AI victory anyway. Dublin are on the wane. Attendances are up, Jeepers but tickets are near impossible to get. All the TV channels are clambering to get covering the Leinster Championship. It's anyones guess who'll win that one. A real lottery. Anyone who'd want to change away from the current provincial and AI systems is mad in head. Attendances up, revenues up. GAA grassroots have never been happier.

Who is pretending that everything is grand, yes of course there are problems that need addressing, but even you, a strong advocate of introducing tiering have no actual evidence that that will solve any of the problems and state that it could make things better. Which wouldnt exactly fill me with faith that it will be am improvement. It might indeed make things better for the top end counties and the TV audience but it will decimate a lot of the lower end ones IMO.

I did say you need your head examined for 2 specific points you made ie more consideration for club players and more funding for weaker counties and though the likes of John Horan comes out with this tbh nobody really believes that bullshit. I was not being personally insulting, unlike some people who liken opponents of tiering to Anti vaccers and flat earthers 

The Dublin situation is a killer for the GAA as they have single handedly demolished the Leinster championship [and thats not a criticism of Dublin] but you can introduce any competitive structure you like and that is not going to change. An intercounty competition, sans the Dubs, would have a number of short odds participants, unfortunately their brilliance has made that impossible over the last few years.

If someone could put a reasoned argument, pointing out the strengths of a tiering system and putting in measures to address the inherent pitfalls that might arise that might be a start. So far the argument seems to be ... that was a shit game ... we need a tired system .. a la Joe Brolly

A good argument might be that for over 100 years we have had over a dozen or so counties whose season has been over by May or June having had 1 or 2 matches (some might even get 3 now with the back door). It's not enough to just say these counties need to get their act together. A tiered system will give them the hope of a competition that they can progress and go deep in. As opposed to playing in matches where they go in hoping to keep the margin to single figures. The posters on here seem to think that players need to have the prospect of playing one of the glamour teams. Those games just aren't appealing any more. Tyrone are one of the best supported teams around and their game v Antrim had 5,000 at it. The question is would the Antrim players prefer to be hammered in games like that or play in a junior championship where they have a decent chance of winning, building confidence and progressing up to an intermediate championship. My opinion is that they would prefer the latter.

I see you have used the example of a 1 sided match as a reason for introducing tiering, as I said earlier a la Joe Brolly.

Given that you refuse to recognise that tiers might in fact introduce further issue into football I will address the points you did raise.

Will tiers address the issue of uneven contests, will it assure us that all teams will finish within a point of each other in all the games, or how much do you think would be an acceptable level of beating? Will all the games be exciting TV friendly games? [not that they will get within a beagle's gowl of being on TV of course].

If there is a top 16 tier is there a guarantee that Dublin won't bate somebody out the gate. Croke Park better have a wee word in Jim Gavin's ear!!!!