Middle East landscape rapidly changing

[Cobra]

These countries can't really be helped. These people are so far removed from what us westerners see as normal. Enforcing western ideas and governments on them don't work. The Afghan government was a mess before it collapsed. It was corrupt beyond belief. They couldn't get the security element right at all. It is a shame for the people but this isn't a war that is winnable. There is no real hope for these countries. The only option is to contain them. Neither military nor money will help these places.

[tbrick18]

These countries can't really be helped. These people are so far removed from what us westerners see as normal. Enforcing western ideas and governments on them don't work. The Afghan government was a mess before it collapsed. It was corrupt beyond belief. They couldn't get the security element right at all. It is a shame for the people but this isn't a war that is winnable. There is no real hope for these countries. The only option is to contain them. Neither military nor money will help these places.

What do you mean by contain them and how can a country be contained?

I absolutely disagree with you saying the country can't be helped, but I do agree the place was a mess before this collapse. However, the US primarily allowed that position to manifest itself. If they were just aimlessly pumping money in and allowing it to be filtered off to cronies then it was always going to fail. Once they went in there, they had an obligation to ensure the correct infrastructure in terms of government and accountability was put in place so that a stable and non-corrupt government and military were in place. And yes, I understand that is an extremely long term project, but that is what you sign up for when you invade a county to "protect" yourself and save the innocent Afghan people.
The US and UK have failed miserably and now they just go on their merry way an leave the people to suffer.
I find it morally wrong, disturbing and disgusting.
People talk about terrorists and terrorist states....the actions (or perhaps inaction) of the US and UK in Afghanistan have and will continue to cause more death and misery than any terrorist organisation has over this past 20 years.

[johnnycool]

These countries can't really be helped. These people are so far removed from what us westerners see as normal. Enforcing western ideas and governments on them don't work. The Afghan government was a mess before it collapsed. It was corrupt beyond belief. They couldn't get the security element right at all. It is a shame for the people but this isn't a war that is winnable. There is no real hope for these countries. The only option is to contain them. Neither military nor money will help these places.

Stop cosying up to their backers in Saudi Arabia and the likes would be a start.

[Cobra]

These countries can't really be helped. These people are so far removed from what us westerners see as normal. Enforcing western ideas and governments on them don't work. The Afghan government was a mess before it collapsed. It was corrupt beyond belief. They couldn't get the security element right at all. It is a shame for the people but this isn't a war that is winnable. There is no real hope for these countries. The only option is to contain them. Neither military nor money will help these places.

What do you mean by contain them and how can a country be contained?

I absolutely disagree with you saying the country can't be helped, but I do agree the place was a mess before this collapse. However, the US primarily allowed that position to manifest itself. If they were just aimlessly pumping money in and allowing it to be filtered off to cronies then it was always going to fail. Once they went in there, they had an obligation to ensure the correct infrastructure in terms of government and accountability was put in place so that a stable and non-corrupt government and military were in place. And yes, I understand that is an extremely long term project, but that is what you sign up for when you invade a county to "protect" yourself and save the innocent Afghan people.
The US and UK have failed miserably and now they just go on their merry way an leave the people to suffer.
I find it morally wrong, disturbing and disgusting.
People talk about terrorists and terrorist states....the actions (or perhaps inaction) of the US and UK in Afghanistan have and will continue to cause more death and misery than any terrorist organisation has over this past 20 years.

We in the west need to learn that this is not our country to invade and 'free' its people. It is a foreign land. The UK and US nor anywhere else is the world's police force. The US should never have been there in the first place. And no Afghanistan cannot be helped. The Russians couldn't do it and neither could the US. Western countries can only use tough sanctions and monitor it militarily.
The world is a complex place. In some instances we have to do business with states who have a questionable morals. Much like Ireland, the UK and the US do.
I feel for the people of Afghanistan but it is not our country and it is not our war.

[RedHand88]

Someone mentioned it in another thread but the footage of civilians chasing a military jet down the runway and hanging on to the side of it to get away is terrifying. Sheer desperation.

We really don't appreciate living in a western democratic country enough sometimes.

[Wildweasel74]

G cobra, good job you weren't around in WW2 with that attitude, we all be speaking German

[Cobra]

G cobra, good job you weren't around in WW2 with that attitude, we all be speaking German

Remind me of Ireland's approach to WW2?

[Wildweasel74]

Once u decide to invade country affecting it's already unstable foundations, you are morally responsible to at least stabilise the country with a good govt, and a backed police/army to control it. The UK and US went in on a whim with no game plan. It has no leechable resources like Iraq. which is the main aim of invasions ( sorry putting u will on a population) so now its we had enough, we pulling out, leave the place worse than u entered and responsible for 10's tens of thousands of deaths (directly and indirectly). No body learn from Vietnam. Only people benefited was the gun manufacturer s.

[Cobra]

Onc u decide to invade country affect g it's already unstable foundations you are morally responsible to at least stabilise the country with a good givt, and a backed pokice/army to control it. The UK and US went in on a whim with no game plan. It has no leech able resources like Iraq. which is the main aim of invasions ( sorry putting u will on a population) so now its we had enough, we pulling out, leave the place worse than u entered and responsible for 10's tens of thousands of deaths (directly and indirectly). No body learn from Vietnam. Only people benefited was the gun manufacturer s.

I totally agree. Although there was a long term game plan but it wasn't going to work. Setting up a stable democratic government is impossible in these countries. They're all ruled by force.
The US should never have invaded and as sad and distressing as the images are today in a two weeks this thread will be on page 5.

[johnnycool]

Onc u decide to invade country affect g it's already unstable foundations you are morally responsible to at least stabilise the country with a good givt, and a backed pokice/army to control it. The UK and US went in on a whim with no game plan. It has no leech able resources like Iraq. which is the main aim of invasions ( sorry putting u will on a population) so now its we had enough, we pulling out, leave the place worse than u entered and responsible for 10's tens of thousands of deaths (directly and indirectly). No body learn from Vietnam. Only people benefited was the gun manufacturer s.

I totally agree. Although there was a long term game plan but it wasn't going to work. Setting up a stable democratic government is impossible in these countries. They're all ruled by force.
The US should never have invaded and as sad and distressing as the images are today in a two weeks this thread will be on page 5.

The US invasion of Afghanistan was very much based on emotion after 9/11, rational thought didn't have a look in even when it was apparent that all barring one or two of the highjackers were Saudi's...

Bin Laden was more likely to be holed up in the Pakistan mountains than Afghanistan. He's from a very wealthy family and wasn't holed up in some cave as we were led to believe..

Neither Saudi or Pakistan will ever face the wrath of the US military..

[tbrick18]

These countries can't really be helped. These people are so far removed from what us westerners see as normal. Enforcing western ideas and governments on them don't work. The Afghan government was a mess before it collapsed. It was corrupt beyond belief. They couldn't get the security element right at all. It is a shame for the people but this isn't a war that is winnable. There is no real hope for these countries. The only option is to contain them. Neither military nor money will help these places.

What do you mean by contain them and how can a country be contained?

I absolutely disagree with you saying the country can't be helped, but I do agree the place was a mess before this collapse. However, the US primarily allowed that position to manifest itself. If they were just aimlessly pumping money in and allowing it to be filtered off to cronies then it was always going to fail. Once they went in there, they had an obligation to ensure the correct infrastructure in terms of government and accountability was put in place so that a stable and non-corrupt government and military were in place. And yes, I understand that is an extremely long term project, but that is what you sign up for when you invade a county to "protect" yourself and save the innocent Afghan people.
The US and UK have failed miserably and now they just go on their merry way an leave the people to suffer.
I find it morally wrong, disturbing and disgusting.
People talk about terrorists and terrorist states....the actions (or perhaps inaction) of the US and UK in Afghanistan have and will continue to cause more death and misery than any terrorist organisation has over this past 20 years.

We in the west need to learn that this is not our country to invade and 'free' its people. It is a foreign land. The UK and US nor anywhere else is the world's police force. The US should never have been there in the first place. And no Afghanistan cannot be helped. The Russians couldn't do it and neither could the US. Western countries can only use tough sanctions and monitor it militarily.
The world is a complex place. In some instances we have to do business with states who have a questionable morals. Much like Ireland, the UK and the US do.
I feel for the people of Afghanistan but it is not our country and it is not our war.

I completely agree that the US and the UK should never have been in Afghanistan. However, the second they take control of it, they have a responsibility to the people of that country to keep them safe.
What they've done here is gone in, killed a load of people, probably pilfered what they could and then scarpered leaving the local people to suffer the consequences.
It might not the US's country but it was certainly their war as they invaded this foreign land, as you call it. It suited them to do so post 9-11 as the optics for the electorate was very good.
To me, the fact the US and UK has left the Afghans in the manner they have then they have jointly carried out the single biggest terrorist attack in modern times which has gone one for 20 years.

[Captain Scarlet]

Am I being simplistic here to say the Taliban have sat up in Pakistan for years and waited them all out. 9/11 was a Saudi job and they won't go near either of them.

On another note I see many US heads on Twitter talking about money being spent in Afghanistan...sure that money was all funneling back into the US Military Complex as they call it.

The USA is a joke. Like Trump heads are loving it and Biden fans are blaming Trump.
But hey Joe can quote Heaney and Harris wears Chuck Taylors so everyone is happy!

They will need to get back in there sharpish within the next two years no matter what.

[johnnycool]

Am I being simplistic here to say the Taliban have sat up in Pakistan for years and waited them all out. 9/11 was a Saudi job and they won't go near either of them.

On another note I see many US heads on Twitter talking about money being spent in Afghanistan...sure that money was all funneling back into the US Military Complex as they call it.

The USA is a joke. Like Trump heads are loving it and Biden fans are blaming Trump.
But hey Joe can quote Heaney and Harris wears Chuck Taylors so everyone is happy!

They will need to get back in there sharpish within the next two years no matter what.

Will they f**k...

Biden will ride out the bad press for a few months and it'll all be forgotten about come the next election cycle in the US.

Problem is the Raytheons, Lockheads, Haliburtons of the US Military-industrial complex need their tax dollars to keep the owners happy so some other unsuspecting country will have US "freedoms and democracy" thrust upon it...

My money is on Iran and Syria as Taiwan is too big of a bite at the minute.

[LeoMc]

Am I being simplistic here to say the Taliban have sat up in Pakistan for years and waited them all out. 9/11 was a Saudi job and they won't go near either of them.

On another note I see many US heads on Twitter talking about money being spent in Afghanistan...sure that money was all funneling back into the US Military Complex as they call it.

The USA is a joke. Like Trump heads are loving it and Biden fans are blaming Trump.
But hey Joe can quote Heaney and Harris wears Chuck Taylors so everyone is happy!

They will need to get back in there sharpish within the next two years no matter what.

Will they f**k...

Biden will ride out the bad press for a few months and it'll all be forgotten about come the next election cycle in the US.

Problem is the Raytheons, Lockheads, Haliburtons of the US Military-industrial complex need their tax dollars to keep the owners happy so some other unsuspecting country will have US "freedoms and democracy" thrust upon it...

My money is on Iran and Syria as Taiwan is too big of a bite at the minute.

Taiwan?

I can see the 2 Shia Countries being in the firing line to keep the Saudis happy but can see ni reason they would invade Taiwan.

[johnnycool]

Am I being simplistic here to say the Taliban have sat up in Pakistan for years and waited them all out. 9/11 was a Saudi job and they won't go near either of them.

On another note I see many US heads on Twitter talking about money being spent in Afghanistan...sure that money was all funneling back into the US Military Complex as they call it.

The USA is a joke. Like Trump heads are loving it and Biden fans are blaming Trump.
But hey Joe can quote Heaney and Harris wears Chuck Taylors so everyone is happy!

They will need to get back in there sharpish within the next two years no matter what.

Will they f**k...

Biden will ride out the bad press for a few months and it'll all be forgotten about come the next election cycle in the US.

Problem is the Raytheons, Lockheads, Haliburtons of the US Military-industrial complex need their tax dollars to keep the owners happy so some other unsuspecting country will have US "freedoms and democracy" thrust upon it...

My money is on Iran and Syria as Taiwan is too big of a bite at the minute.

Taiwan?

I can see the 2 Shia Countries being in the firing line to keep the Saudis happy but can see ni reason they would invade Taiwan.

China making shapes at Taiwan in reclaiming it, US talking big but nothing will come off it in either direction.