Middle East landscape rapidly changing

[seafoid]

Lads, (seafoid and ghd primarily), what is your solution to the issue? Is it the removal of Israel from Gaza/West Bank and the recognition of Palestine as a state, or is it the removal of Israel altogether, and let the Israelis live in an Arab controlled country(ies) or move back to Europe?

Do ye agree that Israel as a state has as much right to exist as Palestine, or do you believe it has no right to be there?

Israel should give the vote to everyone in Greater Israel. Apartheid isn't going to work. I don't think 50% of the people have a right to run everything. 
I don't think it was right to plant Europe's Jewish problem in the Middle East but it was done and there is no changing that.
Israel has a responsibility to pay reparations to the Palestinian refugees.
The people who live in Israel now have a right to be there but it is going to be messy for a very long time.
 

[AZOffaly]

Lads, (seafoid and ghd primarily), what is your solution to the issue? Is it the removal of Israel from Gaza/West Bank and the recognition of Palestine as a state, or is it the removal of Israel altogether, and let the Israelis live in an Arab controlled country(ies) or move back to Europe?

Do ye agree that Israel as a state has as much right to exist as Palestine, or do you believe it has no right to be there?

Israel should give the vote to everyone in Greater Israel. Apartheid isn't going to work. I don't think 50% of the people have a right to run everything. 
I don't think it was right to plant Europe's Jewish problem in the Middle East but it was done and there is no changing that.
Israel has a responsibility to pay reparations to the Palestinian refugees.
The people who live in Israel now have a right to be there but it is going to be messy for a very long time.

A vote to what end? I see where you say they should pay Palestinian Refugees, and that they should all have a vote. So does that mean you want the Palestinians to live in Israel, but to have the same rights as Israelis, as opposed to say setting up a completely separate state and vacating Gaza?

[seafoid]

Lads, (seafoid and ghd primarily), what is your solution to the issue? Is it the removal of Israel from Gaza/West Bank and the recognition of Palestine as a state, or is it the removal of Israel altogether, and let the Israelis live in an Arab controlled country(ies) or move back to Europe?

Do ye agree that Israel as a state has as much right to exist as Palestine, or do you believe it has no right to be there?

Israel should give the vote to everyone in Greater Israel. Apartheid isn't going to work. I don't think 50% of the people have a right to run everything. 
I don't think it was right to plant Europe's Jewish problem in the Middle East but it was done and there is no changing that.
Israel has a responsibility to pay reparations to the Palestinian refugees.
The people who live in Israel now have a right to be there but it is going to be messy for a very long time.

A vote to what end? I see where you say they should pay Palestinian Refugees, and that they should all have a vote. So does that mean you want the Palestinians to live in Israel, but to have the same rights as Israelis, as opposed to say setting up a completely separate state and vacating Gaza?

The Palestinians should be allowed to live anywhere in the polity, same as the situation for catholics in northern Ireland.

Greater Israel is jerrymandered. Jews can live anywhere and Palestinians are confined to bantustans. Maybe that is the only way Jews can run a country in the region but it sucks.
Gaza is a time bomb.

[AZOffaly]

OK, you don't have to end every post with a declaration I'm surprised by the answer to be honest. I don't think that tallies with what Hamas or the old PLO wanted. You're basically saying you think the conflict could be resolved if the Palestinians were made 'full' citizens of Israel, including bringing them into the political arena in Israeli elections etc?

[muppet]

Most of us can easily point out what is hideously wrong there. But it is gong to take some very clever and determined people to resolve it.

[seafoid]

OK, you don't have to end every post with a declaration I'm surprised by the answer to be honest. I don't think that tallies with what Hamas or the old PLO wanted. You're basically saying you think the conflict could be resolved if the Palestinians were made 'full' citizens of Israel, including bringing them into the political arena in Israeli elections etc?

The people can decide how they want to proceed. That's democracy.
I think a lot of Jews will probably end up leaving. Israel is a bit of a mess regardless of the Palestinian situation. The Orthodox birth rate  is very high and they are not very well educated .  Most of them are dependent on social welfare. 

I just can't see the status quo enduring.

[AZOffaly]

Most of us can easily point out what is hideously wrong there. But it is gong to take some very clever and determined people to resolve it.

Yes, but that's my question. As we point out what is hideously wrong, what is the preferred solution. Some people (not saying those on here) want Israel to be wiped off the map, and the Israelis banished to Europe, America or wherever the feck will take them.

Others seem to want Palestine to be bombed into a meek submission where they know what's good for them and take their medicine.

I'd have thought the solution would be for Israel to withdraw from the settlements, and allow the state of Palestine to be a self governing country with no interference from Israel. A neighbour. Not one you'd invite for a barbeque mind you, but at least you'd stop throwing stones and hand grenades at each other's windows.

Seafoid's proposal is actually very interesting to me. If the entire region was called 'Israel', but Palestinians and Israelis alike were simply different factions in a political sense, and were enfranchised the same way,  maybe that's the sustainable solution. I'm sure the Israelis would see that as the start of them being phased out (see the first 'solution' above) in the same way the Unionists of Northern Ireland would feel very insecure in a United Ireland.

[seafoid]

Most of us can easily point out what is hideously wrong there. But it is gong to take some very clever and determined people to resolve it.

Yes, but that's my question. As we point out what is hideously wrong, what is the preferred solution. Some people (not saying those on here) want Israel to be wiped off the map, and the Israelis banished to Europe, America or wherever the feck will take them.

Others seem to want Palestine to be bombed into a meek submission where they know what's good for them and take their medicine.

I'd have thought the solution would be for Israel to withdraw from the settlements, and allow the state of Palestine to be a self governing country with no interference from Israel. A neighbour. Not one you'd invite for a barbeque mind you, but at least you'd stop throwing stones and hand grenades at each other's windows.

Seafoid's proposal is actually very interesting to me. If the entire region was called 'Israel', but Palestinians and Israelis alike were simply different factions in a political sense, and were enfranchised the same way,  maybe that's the sustainable solution. I'm sure the Israelis would see that as the start of them being phased out (see the first 'solution' above) in the same way the Unionists of Northern Ireland would feel very insecure in a United Ireland.

The Israelis decided to occupy the West Bank and Gaza in 1967. Nobody asked them to.
So if they feel insecure they should go back to the 67 borders.
But it seems to be too late for that. 

[Mike Sheehy]

I think a better question might be to ask those who fought to oust Mubarak and afterwards Morsi if this is what they wanted. Those who say they are protecting the spirit of the revolution. Is this their revolution realised or has Egypt gone back to square one?

It's gone back to Square 1. As long as Israel exists Egypt is going to be ruled by a dictator.

The Army (sponsored by the US and Israel) wants to exterminate the Muslim brotherhood (who have around 40% popular support) but they are just adding fuel to the conflagration of the future.   
Imagine executing 50 FF leaders.
Sure they fucked up but they don't deserve to be executed.

who do the other 60% support ?

[seafoid]

I think a better question might be to ask those who fought to oust Mubarak and afterwards Morsi if this is what they wanted. Those who say they are protecting the spirit of the revolution. Is this their revolution realised or has Egypt gone back to square one?

It's gone back to Square 1. As long as Israel exists Egypt is going to be ruled by a dictator.

The Army (sponsored by the US and Israel) wants to exterminate the Muslim brotherhood (who have around 40% popular support) but they are just adding fuel to the conflagration of the future.   
Imagine executing 50 FF leaders.
Sure they fucked up but they don't deserve to be executed.

who do the other 60% support ?

Barcelona

[Mike Sheehy]

I think a better question might be to ask those who fought to oust Mubarak and afterwards Morsi if this is what they wanted. Those who say they are protecting the spirit of the revolution. Is this their revolution realised or has Egypt gone back to square one?

It's gone back to Square 1. As long as Israel exists Egypt is going to be ruled by a dictator.

The Army (sponsored by the US and Israel) wants to exterminate the Muslim brotherhood (who have around 40% popular support) but they are just adding fuel to the conflagration of the future.   
Imagine executing 50 FF leaders.
Sure they fucked up but they don't deserve to be executed.

who do the other 60% support ?

Barcelona

I know it is hard for you but bear with me.

Egypt is a nation of 80 million and a history of 5000 years. At what point does a nation, or people,
become responsible for its own political situation. Why does it always have to be some nefarious
Jewish/American conspiracy that is pulling their strings ?

What is distressing is that not only are you an obvious anti-Semite but you also have an incredibly condescending and patronizing attitude toward Egyptians and the middle east in general.

[Mike Sheehy]

OK, you don't have to end every post with a declaration I'm surprised by the answer to be honest. I don't think that tallies with what Hamas or the old PLO wanted. You're basically saying you think the conflict could be resolved if the Palestinians were made 'full' citizens of Israel, including bringing them into the political arena in Israeli elections etc?

Think about it for a second AZoffaly...if you were an anti-Semite who didn't believe that Israel had a right to exist then it makes perfect sense to be against a two state solution as it would, de facto, grant legitimacy to an Israeli state.

[johnneycool]

I think a better question might be to ask those who fought to oust Mubarak and afterwards Morsi if this is what they wanted. Those who say they are protecting the spirit of the revolution. Is this their revolution realised or has Egypt gone back to square one?

It's gone back to Square 1. As long as Israel exists Egypt is going to be ruled by a dictator.

The Army (sponsored by the US and Israel) wants to exterminate the Muslim brotherhood (who have around 40% popular support) but they are just adding fuel to the conflagration of the future.   
Imagine executing 50 FF leaders.
Sure they fucked up but they don't deserve to be executed.

who do the other 60% support ?

Barcelona

I know it is hard for you but bear with me.

Egypt is a nation of 80 million and a history of 5000 years. At what point does a nation, or people,
become responsible for its own political situation. Why does it always have to be some nefarious
Jewish/American conspiracy that is pulling their strings ?

What is distressing is that not only are you an obvious anti-Semite but you also have an incredibly condescending and patronizing attitude toward Egyptians and the middle east in general.

Whilst the Americans are funding the Egyptian military to the balls, they'll be accused of asserting too much influence in the area irrespective of who the Eqyptians democratically elect into power.

[Mike Sheehy]

ok, but, realistically, how much would you say American "influence" plays into the daily lives of Egyptians ? Would you say it is 10%...20%...90 % ?

[johnneycool]

ok, but, realistically, how much would you say American "influence" plays into the daily lives of Egyptians ? Would you say it is 10%...20%...90 % ?

American influence is targeted at the Egyptian military, not the general population with 3/4 of the annual $2billion of aid going to the military directly or as military hardware from US contractors.

I'd suggest the Egyptian generals know what side their bread is buttered on and act accordingly.