11-Plus Proposal

[tbrick18]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

I know of a retired science teacher tutoring 12 kids a night (group of 6 at 17.30 and another 6 at 8.30) . He teaches them in a classroom setting at his house rather than 1 to 1. 35 quid an hour x 12 x ?number of days he works is serious tax-free cash.

This is taking advantage.
Mrs. Tbrick18 tutors special Ed kids on a 1-2-1 basis, and I can tell you she doesn't charge anything like that. In face she charges less than half that hourly rate as she doesn't do it to make money.
However, I know of a principal in a certain ps, who has a policy of not prepping kids for transfer. But she actually tutors kids privately from her school for the transfer.
Some scumbags out there alright, but not all are the same.

[Estimator]

I've heard anecdotal evidence of parents tutoring the life out of their kids to make sure they get into the good grammar school, then basically abandoning them when they arrive in the school as the child struggles to cope with the level of work and expectation. But the goal was only to get the child into the school so the job is done.

[delgany]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through?  It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.


P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

[delgany]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through?  It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.


P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

[Tony Baloney]

Supply and demand. My missus and her 2 sisters are teachers and the 2 sisters do some tuition but def charge 25 max. Maths and Science tutors are definitely in demand. I know a couple who had their son tutored for each A level he was doing - that's 100 quid a week, but he did well and in his first choice at uni so for them they'll say it is money well spent. How he does in his uni course is anybody's guess!

[Tony Baloney]

11+ tutoring is the biggest tax - free con job in the North. The vast majority of children with a cognitive ability score of 105+ will pass  the 11+ with hard work in school and good parental support.
A tutor may help some children in the 95 - 100  bracket. Most tutors are working of the hard work put in by P6 and P7 teachers.
Parents  can pay up to £1250 -£1500 for a tutor - yet - if the child doesn't perform well on the day - it's always the schools fault .

Anyway , the 11+ is a reflection of performance on a given day. GCse and A levels are what really counts.

What do you mean by hard work from the teachers? Doing 3/4 test papers in class per week from March in P6 and then spending all morning going over test questions?? Sure that's not teaching the curriculum, that's just preparing children for tests. What about the children who aren't fit to do the transfer? Do they just sit in the class and zone out or give them some sort of booklet to work through?  It's a completely flawed system and most children will struggle to get an A without some form of tutoring. And asking parents to do it is disaster, the children will fight the bit out and cry when their parents are going over test papers whereas they'll listen to a tutor. And 105 cognitive ability is definitely not an indication that a child is able to get an A in the transfer.


P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

Up to last year loads of schools weren't doing any transfer prep. My boys went to such a achool. And I mean NOTHING.

[Estimator]

https://www.derrynow.com/news/derry-news/511843/revealed-the-scores-and-grades-that-schools-in-derry-accepted-last-year-for-students-who-had-taken-the-transfer-test.html

[delgany]

Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own

P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge . 
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances. 

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

[Jim Bob]

If the boards of governors of some grammar schools chose to do the right thing and not select children based on academic ability then there would be no need for tutoring at 11.
It is the responsibility of each school to prepare and cater for the pupils who attend it, irrespective of ability. A primary school teacher can't point to a child in his/her class and say that that child is not fit to be in the school. A grammar school teacher shouldn't either but they do unfortunately.

[JimStynes]

Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own

P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

The transfer is in November so if we were teaching it the way it is meant to be taught then the pupils wouldn't have all the topics covered by then. If I teach ratio or algebra in second term of P7 then it's too late for those transfer pupils, the test has come and gone. But what happens is teachers squeeze all of the p7 year into the P6 year and expect everyone to keep up.

It also depends on the catchment area and ethos of the school. In some areas the transfer isn't a 'thing'. My last 3 schools have been entirely different. In my current school I haven't mentioned transfer to the class once and they're the brightest class I've ever taught. They all go to the local schools and don't require a transfer score. One child did the transfer in fact and his PTM and PTE scores were both in the 130s. He got an A today and he was tutored on test technique and time management of the test. I gave the tutor the topics I haven't covered yet that I know are on the test and they did the work with him. There is no way I'm changing the curriculum to suit one child.  The children in this school are much more relaxed and a hell of lot less stressed than the transfer schools. But if I had 3/4 children looking to do the transfer next year, then how would they pass if they didn't get a tutor as I don't go over the tests in school.

One of my schools fed into the likes of Rathmore and those Belfast schools. Out of 28 children, 25 did the test and a lot of them got A. But the preparation was intense. The P7 curriculum was covered in P6, they did tests 3 times per week, their homework was based around the transfer, they had a transfer pack sent home over the summer, they did work at weekends and 99% of them were tutored on a weekly basis and some cases were tutored twice a week. Needless to say there was a lot of tears, stressed parents and pressure on teachers. 10/11 years of age and being put through that. Also, in this school we worked out that children with a score of 115 were the ones likely to get an A based on all the statistics that the boss had worked out.

Another school was in a deprived area but still did the transfer prep and it was a waste of time. 5/6 of the class were fit for it and the others hadn't a clue. Waste of time and the parents couldn't afford tutors. We ran transfer clubs and tried our best but ultimately that school is failing the majority of their children by persisting/giving into the transfer pressure. I'd have liked to have taught the class at a slower rate and let those doing transfer do so in their own time after school.

I tutor children for the transfer and give parents a brutally honest view of how I think their child is going to do and whether it is going to be worth the stress and hassle for the child. In lots of cases the parents say they would still like them to do it. I've tutored a few border B/C children and they've got an A, but I would say a month after the test they would have forgotten half the stuff. They were tutored to pass the test but if I was teaching them I would have taught them differently in a way that would help them retain the knowledge! Also, £30 an hour! I would need to start putting my prices up!

As I said it's a completely flawed system and it's a lot of unnecessary stress for children at 10/11 years of age. I thought the Dixon Plan in Lurgan was better. You go to the local secondary and then do a transfer test at the end of 3rd year to go to the local Grammar school. But they've went and made a balls out of the education system in Lurgan now too.

[nrico2006]

Apologies my reply to Jim got attached to his own

P6 and P7 teachers actually teach the curriculum in the first instance. Pupils wouldnt know how to answer practice papers without that basic knowledge .
The maths curriculum is so broad that the P6 and P7 teachers are teaching that curriculum alongside the transfer work in March through to October. Pupils not doing test are also taught that curriculum throughout that time.
I agree that the focus is on transfer in Sept, oct ,nov but there is no alternative.

Parents are caught in a dilemma about tutoring. Wee Johnny has a tutor ,so my child with a Cat /ptm/ pte of 110 needs one! A complete waste of money for parents. A complete steal for the tutor.....they must laugh when they see these people coming along ... £30 an hour ...for what...going over the papers they already do in school. It's a complete con job in these cases.

A good tutor will identify areas where a child in the 95 - 105 bracket can improve and add value to that childs chances.

Children with a CAt  score of 105 rarely fail to score beyond this in the GL/Aqe tests.

The transfer is in November so if we were teaching it the way it is meant to be taught then the pupils wouldn't have all the topics covered by then. If I teach ratio or algebra in second term of P7 then it's too late for those transfer pupils, the test has come and gone. But what happens is teachers squeeze all of the p7 year into the P6 year and expect everyone to keep up.

It also depends on the catchment area and ethos of the school. In some areas the transfer isn't a 'thing'. My last 3 schools have been entirely different. In my current school I haven't mentioned transfer to the class once and they're the brightest class I've ever taught. They all go to the local schools and don't require a transfer score. One child did the transfer in fact and his PTM and PTE scores were both in the 130s. He got an A today and he was tutored on test technique and time management of the test. I gave the tutor the topics I haven't covered yet that I know are on the test and they did the work with him. There is no way I'm changing the curriculum to suit one child.  The children in this school are much more relaxed and a hell of lot less stressed than the transfer schools. But if I had 3/4 children looking to do the transfer next year, then how would they pass if they didn't get a tutor as I don't go over the tests in school.

One of my schools fed into the likes of Rathmore and those Belfast schools. Out of 28 children, 25 did the test and a lot of them got A. But the preparation was intense. The P7 curriculum was covered in P6, they did tests 3 times per week, their homework was based around the transfer, they had a transfer pack sent home over the summer, they did work at weekends and 99% of them were tutored on a weekly basis and some cases were tutored twice a week. Needless to say there was a lot of tears, stressed parents and pressure on teachers. 10/11 years of age and being put through that. Also, in this school we worked out that children with a score of 115 were the ones likely to get an A based on all the statistics that the boss had worked out.

Another school was in a deprived area but still did the transfer prep and it was a waste of time. 5/6 of the class were fit for it and the others hadn't a clue. Waste of time and the parents couldn't afford tutors. We ran transfer clubs and tried our best but ultimately that school is failing the majority of their children by persisting/giving into the transfer pressure. I'd have liked to have taught the class at a slower rate and let those doing transfer do so in their own time after school.

I tutor children for the transfer and give parents a brutally honest view of how I think their child is going to do and whether it is going to be worth the stress and hassle for the child. In lots of cases the parents say they would still like them to do it. I've tutored a few border B/C children and they've got an A, but I would say a month after the test they would have forgotten half the stuff. They were tutored to pass the test but if I was teaching them I would have taught them differently in a way that would help them retain the knowledge! Also, £30 an hour! I would need to start putting my prices up!

As I said it's a completely flawed system and it's a lot of unnecessary stress for children at 10/11 years of age. I thought the Dixon Plan in Lurgan was better. You go to the local secondary and then do a transfer test at the end of 3rd year to go to the local Grammar school. But they've went and made a balls out of the education system in Lurgan now too.

Is there still grades? I hear scores for the AQE and it seems to be just a number.

[Tony Baloney]

Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!

[JimStynes]

Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!

Haha

GL year for catholic grammar but lots of taigs do the AQE test as well.

[tbrick18]

I've heard anecdotal evidence of parents tutoring the life out of their kids to make sure they get into the good grammar school, then basically abandoning them when they arrive in the school as the child struggles to cope with the level of work and expectation. But the goal was only to get the child into the school so the job is done.

I've seen this too.
I think the expectation from some parents is that if the child gets into the grammar of choice that the school is so good they'll make sure the child succeeds. Rarely the case unfortunately if the ability isn't there.
However, the parents are in a lot of cases trying to do what they think is best even though there are plenty who do it for appearances.

[tbrick18]

Letters for taigs, numbers for prods. You hardly expect them everyone to do the same test!

Haha

GL year for catholic grammar but lots of taigs do the AQE test as well.

And lots of protestants do the gl, especially where I live as the Catholic grammars have higher standings in the tables.
The GL gives a score and a letter, with some schools using the scores in their entrance criteria.