Westminster Election 12th December 2019

Started by Ambrose, October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

RedHand88

Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 06:29:19 PM
Quote from: marty34 on December 17, 2019, 05:58:25 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on December 17, 2019, 11:53:23 AM
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 17, 2019, 11:22:21 AM
CCMS for me all day.

And I think people vote with their feet certainly here in Derry in that respect. Great schools, nothing to be learnt from integrated schools in Derry at the minute anyhow. Oakgrove poor school. Sorry for being blunt but there would be massive resistance to integrated schools here, and even though religion is in decline, parents still want that ethos certainly within the school system.
Im from Derry and I dont think that is entirely accurate. My kids go to an Irish school and majority of parents I speak to either don't want or dont care if religion is part of their education. Sure mass attendances would tell you the vast majority are disengaged when it comes to religion.

CC has still too much control on schools in north - priest even sits in on job interviews!!!!

Church and schools should be seperate, like the way they are going in the south.

Nothing wrong with that.. The evidence is there in the performance, and I don't even go to mass. The values and education levels received are just far too good to criticise them.

+1

playwiththewind1st

I can remember going to my local primary school & a new school building was going up.  I was being sent to school with a half a crown every Monday. Reason? The Unionist government only funded 90% of the building's costs. The so called Catholic Church was to raise the other 10%. That was inevitably passed on to the parents of the pupils attending at the time, for future generations to benefit. Church contributed feck all, as usual, but claimed all the glory.

armaghniac

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.

It isn't a question of "ramming" anything, it is a question of not allowing prejudiced people to exclude Ireland's language or popular sports from schools.

However, the comment above about integrating teacher training seems the most obvious place to start.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

delgany

All grammar schools are classified as voluntary grammars. CCMS had no input into their management. All grammar schools are funded directly by DENI. Although CCMS  have input into non selective post primaries hence their attempts to merge the three post primary schools in Downpatrick.

trailer

Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

Milltown Row2

Quote from: armaghniac on December 17, 2019, 07:49:04 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on December 17, 2019, 06:24:36 PM
CCMS at grammar level out perform most schools, even some of the secondary schools have out performed some state grammar schools at GCSE level, but surely it's the work ethic of the principle, teachers, parents and pupils that achieve that?

I went to secondary and school left with zero education at 16 years old, as did 90% of that year (and most years tbh) group, all the kids went to CCMS primary schools then secondary. Why didn't the CCMS system not make us better students?

Simple, the work ethic was missing from all of the things I've mentioned.

Put your kids in the local school and base it on their standard, while we still have segregated housing estates you'll always have schools for that type, my kids have grown up in a mixed area, so go to the local school, they do well because they are encouraged to do well by everyone through school and home life. They aren't taught Irish ( I wasn't either at a CCMS) and played GAA briefly at the club but not bothered, again neither am I, as it's not a necessity in life or will it improve their day to day.

Looking to ram Gaelic culture down people's throats won't win hearts and minds, having it as an option and promoting to those that want to play is the way to go.

It isn't a question of "ramming" anything, it is a question of not allowing prejudiced people to exclude Ireland's language or popular sports from schools.

However, the comment above about integrating teacher training seems the most obvious place to start.

I didn't say that it shouldn't be available or not allowed, a school in Monkstown won't have Irish language or play GAA games as there is no interest in it. I went to a school that only played Gaelic games, when we would have had a decent soccer team, we weren't allowed to have a team
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

marty34

Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

Bit harsh!

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

More like teachers getting punched by brats and the education board allowing f**k all to be done about it.

But yes, duplication is a waste.

Selection is grand. You have to streamline at some point - better to have a test where you make the gap between top and bottom within any individual school a bit smaller.
i usse an speelchekor

tbrick18

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on December 17, 2019, 04:46:48 PM
My response to the old "integrated education is not a panacea" trope is as follows:

Segregated education is not a panacea either.

If integrated schools are providing lower quality education then that's an argument for giving them more funding so they can attract better management and better teachers. The work they do is too important to be relegated to the bottom of the priority list. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't CCMS schools funded partly by the state? If that's the case then it represents a large transfer of public money to a private institution to further its private goals of brainwashing children into a particular belief system, as well as deepening divisions. Utter madness.

You can't take down the peace walls until kids go to school together.

Another old cop-out I used to hear all the time was that CCMS schools "teach children to respect people of different faiths." What a load of cobblers. The ones lobbing petrol bombs in Kilwilkee over the years all went to CCMS schools. Respect for people is not something you learn in lessons from a book. You learn it between lessons. In the corridors. In the playground. Waiting for the school bus. On the school bus. In the cafeteria. You build relationships and grow up together with people from diverse backgrounds, that's where you learn the most, not by listening to some nun droning on for half an hour about how we should be nice to them "up to no good" protestants.

That's a very narrow view, in my opinion. Respect for people has to be taught at home, school shouldn't bear the full responsibility. You reference Kilwilkee in a way that almost suggests the CCMS schools were responsible, I'd argue that it was more likely the responsibility lay with the parents and families who were probably out doing the same thing.
Were I grew up was a rural area and I attended a CCMS school. In that area it was predominantly Catholic, but there was a sizeable Protestant minority. In my memory, I never once remember any issues between the two communities. Farming was the priority, not politics. Farmers of one persuasion regularly helped farmers of the other persuasion, and still do. In fact, a cross community group was set up and did a lot for the area.
Integrated education is an ideal. It cannot work without the same ethos being applied in the homes of staff and students.

CCMS do get funding from the education authority, but so does the Integrated sector through NICIE, and the Irish Medium schools through an organisation that I can't remember the name of.
In terms of setup, there may not be much difference between the two (though I'm no expert here).

In terms of attracting higher quality staff by giving them more funding....that's not possible. As all teachers and Principles here are civil servants and get paid on a scale. The same scale across all schools. The only way it can be increased is by government, and if its increased for one sector its increased to all.
One of the big issues I've seen in staffing in integrated schools is that once in the integrated system, it is very difficult for a teacher to gain employment in CCMS or state schools at a later point. Not impossible, but certainly there seems to be very few teachers moving out of the integrated sector.

tbrick18

On the topic of border polls, I think there will be one eventually. And I think the single biggest driver for it will not be Sinn Fein, I think it will be fallout from Brexit.
I can see NI really hitting rock bottom economically after Brexit and if that happens, our education sector, health sector, security and everything associated will all suffer, so we will all suffer on a daily basis. Costs will go up, but salaries will not.
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

In a simplified hypothetical view of what a UI would look like, replace the British government with ROI government and retain Stormont as a devolved government. The principles of the Good Friday Agreement are retained to give everyone their right to be British/Irish/Both. Would that much actually change in terms of governance for anyone? Nationalist or Unionist? I don't know what a UI would look like, but I think we could describe it in that simplified nature, then perhaps it would remove some of the fear that many Unionists and some Nationalists have.
In that world, I must admit, I would have a bit of a laugh to myself at seeing Gregory Campbell or wee Sammy travelling down to Dublin to take their seats in government.

Maiden1

We went to an open day in Lagan College a few years ago as my oldest was doing the transfer test and we wanted to see our options on which school to send to.  Of all the schools we saw I thought Lagan was the best.  Firstly they have a grammar stream and a non grammar and had flexibility between the 2, so a child who is excelling in the non grammar stream after a couple of years could switch to the grammar and vise versa.  I think they might also have flexibility with pupils attending more advanced classes for subjects that they have an aptitude for.  They have a Gaelic team, Irish classes ..  In general I thought the atmosphere in the school was fantastic.  I believe it is 1 of the most over subscribed schools in NI.  I haven't practiced what I preached when it came to it, the Catholic Grammar schools are out performing other schools so it hard to look past that but it is kind of BS that most of NI are still splitting there kids into religions when sending them to school.

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/news/belfast-news/lagan-integrated-colleges-popularity-sparks-15541036
There are no proofs, only opinions.

Walter Cronc

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
On the topic of border polls, I think there will be one eventually. And I think the single biggest driver for it will not be Sinn Fein, I think it will be fallout from Brexit.
I can see NI really hitting rock bottom economically after Brexit and if that happens, our education sector, health sector, security and everything associated will all suffer, so we will all suffer on a daily basis. Costs will go up, but salaries will not.
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

In a simplified hypothetical view of what a UI would look like, replace the British government with ROI government and retain Stormont as a devolved government. The principles of the Good Friday Agreement are retained to give everyone their right to be British/Irish/Both. Would that much actually change in terms of governance for anyone? Nationalist or Unionist? I don't know what a UI would look like, but I think we could describe it in that simplified nature, then perhaps it would remove some of the fear that many Unionists and some Nationalists have.
In that world, I must admit, I would have a bit of a laugh to myself at seeing Gregory Campbell or wee Sammy travelling down to Dublin to take their seats in government.

Is this not what Boris' deal entails? Economic unity?!

five points


Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

trailer

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 17, 2019, 10:27:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on December 17, 2019, 09:13:56 PM
Education in NI is a mess. Duplication, selection, replication and of course intimidation. Poorly trained teachers punching time for a pension. Another department that needs completely overhauled.

More like teachers getting punched by brats and the education board allowing f**k all to be done about it.

But yes, duplication is a waste.

Selection is grand. You have to streamline at some point - better to have a test where you make the gap between top and bottom within any individual school a bit smaller.

No it isn't. It is completely unfair to put that pressure on a 10 year old. And lets be straight, what the Grammar system is doing is taking the best and easiest taught students and to f**k with the rest. It's laziness on behalf of the school and the teachers. It's dividing society on basis of intelligence and in some cases money, when it is already divided here on religion.

RadioGAAGAA

Quote from: five points on December 18, 2019, 11:33:31 AM

Quote from: tbrick18 on December 18, 2019, 10:59:25 AM
In that scenario, regardless of political persuasion, if we were to have on offer a scenario where we could re-join Europe and have all the same benefits our neighbours in ROI have I think it would be very difficult to argue against.

I'm amazed by this view that EU citizens enjoy huge benefits that are the envy of everyone else. The EU is essentially a bloated bureaucratic middleman that levies taxes on member states and, in the case of both Ireland and the UK, pays out substantially less than they pay in.

You do understand the benefits of the common market?
i usse an speelchekor