Ulster hurling

[marty34]

Geography plays a huge part I know that, surrounding counties are strong and college and school hurling at s higher level also, do other than moving to bordering Kilkenny what's left?

Structures at club level have shown that club teams compete at all levels.. it's that step up to county level that proves the hardest, and why do Antrim have struggle to get athletic big skillfull hurlers (or football) ?  Not winning primary ball or secondary ball was evident on Saturday but it's the same most years as we (in the main) can't physically win those tussles..

Club teams will always have a chance in All Ireland series i.e. to get to the club final as it's set up to suit Ulster teams in fairness.

If the Ulster club champions had to play Galway champs in quarter-final etc. to get to club All Ireland semi-final, it would be be tricky enough.

Rubbish Dunloy has beaten many a Top team to get to final. Loughgiel also, Cushendall to once.

How many Ulster teams have won the club All Ireland? I'm from Ulster!

The set up suits Ulster teams.

I've been to at least 15/20 club semifinals over the years, bar a couple they could have went either way, they were that tight.. the county needs to look at getting more teams regularly up to a decent standard, having a championship that is not just between 3 teams each year... how do they do that?

Clubs are responsible but the county are at the minute putting in a drive to encourage schools at all levels,  lifting the involvement not just with the kids but with teaching staff and feeder clubs.. Antrim has taken its eye off the ball now for 25 plus years.. it's going to take a huge effort to get back there.

But for Antrim to be improving then so must the rest in the province. Getting into Leinster again at juvenile levels is a must, they are our closet province and they have improved their not traditional counties like, Dublin, Carlow, Meath Westmeath to a level way above us, but 25 years ago we'd have beaten such teams with a bit to spare..

Look it's a head scratcher for sure and PD will hopefully have sorted out at least a start to fix this!

Good points raised there.  Funny thing is Carlow have 4 senior clubs and they are pushing on well under Bonnar.  I'm not sure what they have coming through at underage but to get to where they are at with 4 clubs is some achievement.

Geography helps them immensely - KK and Wexford right beside them but it'd be interesting to see how they do it.

Celtic Challenge is an excellent competition - U17 but with U16 development for the stronger counties.  Great idea - loads of games in a short time frame.

Be good to roll it out at U15 level and U20 level.

[Milltown Row2]

Four clubs but a lot of juvenile games are played locally with other counties, Carlow have are an hour or do journey from Dublin so a lot of commuters living in Carlow rather Dublin which helps build clubs, Laois Kildare going immense work also,while Offaly need to be re-woken..

Antrim Down Derry need yo be pushing.. yes it's a journey it's time consuming but the rewards at the end is simple, quicker sharper hurling, kids developing better physically and mentally. Fear of playing bigger teams at senior level is gone..

The biggest disaster is not competing at school level, those teams are a hive of hurling while ours are not..

[marty34]

Four clubs but a lot of juvenile games are played locally with other counties, Carlow have are an hour or do journey from Dublin so a lot of commuters living in Carlow rather Dublin which helps build clubs, Laois Kildare going immense work also,while Offaly need to be re-woken..

Antrim Down Derry need yo be pushing.. yes it's a journey it's time consuming but the rewards at the end is simple, quicker sharper hurling, kids developing better physically and mentally. Fear of playing bigger teams at senior level is gone..

The biggest disaster is not competing at school level, those teams are a hive of hurling while ours are not..

To compete at Joe Mc D level is some achievement with only 4 senior clubs.  They are consistent.  Compare to Antrim and Derry etc. with 2/3 times the number of clubs.

Granted, they are hurling clubs only and that's where the 'issue' is!   Derry clubs are dual clubs for the most part and football will be No. 1.  L'giel, C'dall and Ballycastle are hurling clubs with Dunloy primarily hurling with a great football underage set over recent years.

[johnnycool]

Four clubs but a lot of juvenile games are played locally with other counties, Carlow have are an hour or do journey from Dublin so a lot of commuters living in Carlow rather Dublin which helps build clubs, Laois Kildare going immense work also,while Offaly need to be re-woken..

Antrim Down Derry need yo be pushing.. yes it's a journey it's time consuming but the rewards at the end is simple, quicker sharper hurling, kids developing better physically and mentally. Fear of playing bigger teams at senior level is gone..

The biggest disaster is not competing at school level, those teams are a hive of hurling while ours are not..

To compete at Joe Mc D level is some achievement with only 4 senior clubs.  They are consistent.  Compare to Antrim and Derry etc. with 2/3 times the number of clubs.

Granted, they are hurling clubs only and that's where the 'issue' is!   Derry clubs are dual clubs for the most part and football will be No. 1.  L'giel, C'dall and Ballycastle are hurling clubs with Dunloy primarily hurling with a great football underage set over recent years.

No problem with football being No.1 but I do have a problem when the fixtures are so badly planned that kids are forced to chose one over the other. That does not need to happen and happens far too often.
I've had games cancelled with dual clubs due to a football fixture being moved by a regional board to suit a development squad or other. That shouldn't happen and Croke Park need to insist that the Football No.1 County Boards set aside slots for dual clubs to take part in hurling unimpeded by football.
There's your starting point.

Then improve fixtures for clubs. The Tain league is a farce, don't need to say more.

Antrim CB are picking up the slack of other negligent county boards and asleep at the wheel Ulster Council, with teams from Down, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh looking to get into their leagues at underage and adult?

Martin Fogarty and some of his predecessors really need to start shaking the tree in Ulster as this bullshit visit once every blue moon is token gesture-ism of the highest order.

Someone needs to look at the structures of hurling in Ulster rather than run some fancy dan coaching courses once in a while.

[seafoid]

Geography plays a huge part I know that, surrounding counties are strong and college and school hurling at s higher level also, do other than moving to bordering Kilkenny what's left?

Structures at club level have shown that club teams compete at all levels.. it's that step up to county level that proves the hardest, and why do Antrim have struggle to get athletic big skillfull hurlers (or football) ?  Not winning primary ball or secondary ball was evident on Saturday but it's the same most years as we (in the main) can't physically win those tussles..

Bordering Kilkenny didn't really work for Waterford or Carlow
You have to build the culture in the county

Slaughtneil are a great example of what can be done with the right level of community involvement

[seafoid]

Geography plays a huge part I know that, surrounding counties are strong and college and school hurling at s higher level also, do other than moving to bordering Kilkenny what's left?

Structures at club level have shown that club teams compete at all levels.. it's that step up to county level that proves the hardest, and why do Antrim have struggle to get athletic big skillfull hurlers (or football) ?  Not winning primary ball or secondary ball was evident on Saturday but it's the same most years as we (in the main) can't physically win those tussles..

Club teams will always have a chance in All Ireland series i.e. to get to the club final as it's set up to suit Ulster teams in fairness.

If the Ulster club champions had to play Galway champs in quarter-final etc. to get to club All Ireland semi-final, it would be be tricky enough.

Rubbish Dunloy has beaten many a Top team to get to final. Loughgiel also, Cushendall to once.

How many Ulster teams have won the club All Ireland? I'm from Ulster!

The set up suits Ulster teams.

Loughgiel twice but  other clubs have reached the all Ireland final a total of 7 times   

Dunloy 4 times,

Ruairi Og, McQuillan, O Donovan Rossa once each ,

[marty34]

Geography plays a huge part I know that, surrounding counties are strong and college and school hurling at s higher level also, do other than moving to bordering Kilkenny what's left?

Structures at club level have shown that club teams compete at all levels.. it's that step up to county level that proves the hardest, and why do Antrim have struggle to get athletic big skillfull hurlers (or football) ?  Not winning primary ball or secondary ball was evident on Saturday but it's the same most years as we (in the main) can't physically win those tussles..

Club teams will always have a chance in All Ireland series i.e. to get to the club final as it's set up to suit Ulster teams in fairness.

If the Ulster club champions had to play Galway champs in quarter-final etc. to get to club All Ireland semi-final, it would be be tricky enough.

Rubbish Dunloy has beaten many a Top team to get to final. Loughgiel also, Cushendall to once.

How many Ulster teams have won the club All Ireland? I'm from Ulster!

The set up suits Ulster teams.

Loughgiel twice but  other clubs have reached the all Ireland final a total of 7 times   

Dunloy 4 times,

Ruairi Og, McQuillan, O Donovan Rossa once each ,

What I was saying is the current system suits Ulster clubs re: AI club semi-finals. On a good day, they'll beat the Munster champions in Parnell Pk etc. 

Conversely how many times have Antrim/Down reached the All Ireland final since they changed the system i.e. provinical winners go straight into semi-final?

I'm actually surprised the Leinster and Munster haven't kicked up a fuss about this system to change it to a system similar to the minor system.

[marty34]

Four clubs but a lot of juvenile games are played locally with other counties, Carlow have are an hour or do journey from Dublin so a lot of commuters living in Carlow rather Dublin which helps build clubs, Laois Kildare going immense work also,while Offaly need to be re-woken..

Antrim Down Derry need yo be pushing.. yes it's a journey it's time consuming but the rewards at the end is simple, quicker sharper hurling, kids developing better physically and mentally. Fear of playing bigger teams at senior level is gone..

The biggest disaster is not competing at school level, those teams are a hive of hurling while ours are not..

To compete at Joe Mc D level is some achievement with only 4 senior clubs.  They are consistent.  Compare to Antrim and Derry etc. with 2/3 times the number of clubs.

Granted, they are hurling clubs only and that's where the 'issue' is!   Derry clubs are dual clubs for the most part and football will be No. 1.  L'giel, C'dall and Ballycastle are hurling clubs with Dunloy primarily hurling with a great football underage set over recent years.

No problem with football being No.1 but I do have a problem when the fixtures are so badly planned that kids are forced to chose one over the other. That does not need to happen and happens far too often.
I've had games cancelled with dual clubs due to a football fixture being moved by a regional board to suit a development squad or other. That shouldn't happen and Croke Park need to insist that the Football No.1 County Boards set aside slots for dual clubs to take part in hurling unimpeded by football.
There's your starting point.

Then improve fixtures for clubs. The Tain league is a farce, don't need to say more.

Antrim CB are picking up the slack of other negligent county boards and asleep at the wheel Ulster Council, with teams from Down, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh looking to get into their leagues at underage and adult?

Martin Fogarty and some of his predecessors really need to start shaking the tree in Ulster as this bullshit visit once every blue moon is token gesture-ism of the highest order.

Someone needs to look at the structures of hurling in Ulster rather than run some fancy dan coaching courses once in a while.

I hear what you are saying JC and totally agree but the football counties will always put football at the top.  That's life.

The issue with Táin league is it's for the hurling clubs in 'weaker 'counties - i always see loads of game conceded during the summer.  Not sure why - football clashes?  Be good to see how many games are actually played in it.

Re: Antrim league, esp. Div. 1 it's a good league.  The reason the Táin league wouldn't work at a higher level is Antrim teams and 3 Ards teams wouldn't buy into it.  Why would they when their league is as good as it is already.

Therefore other counties see no value in a Táin league if Antrim and PF, BC and BG are not in it.

[seafoid]

Say over the last 20 years what was done incorrectly  in terms of ulster hurling?  Why didn't things move on from 20 years ago ?

[Milltown Row2]

Say over the last 20 years what was done incorrectly  in terms of ulster hurling?  Why didn't things move on from 20 years ago ?

Other counties kicked on, we stayed the same, we got flashes of what could have been, beating Dublin, the game against Wexford in 2003 still sticks in my throat, McFaul's catch OUTSIDE the square and laid it off for a goal to be disallowed is still one that get Antrim's back up.. Dinny was a great man at the time to coach and get the best out of that squad of players ..

We completely fell away after that, and if Antrim aren't competitive in Ulster then neither are the rest..

[johnnycool]

Say over the last 20 years what was done incorrectly  in terms of ulster hurling?  Why didn't things move on from 20 years ago ?

Other counties kicked on, we stayed the same, we got flashes of what could have been, beating Dublin, the game against Wexford in 2003 still sticks in my throat, McFaul's catch OUTSIDE the square and laid it off for a goal to be disallowed is still one that get Antrim's back up.. Dinny was a great man at the time to coach and get the best out of that squad of players ..

We completely fell away after that, and if Antrim aren't competitive in Ulster then neither are the rest..

Say for instance I'm a pretty good hurler from Loughgiel, Dunloy or Cushendall and I'm asked to go to the county set up where you're training all winter, playing Div1B at best, Div2A etc etc and then come the summer you're playing in very low profile games in Mullingar/Navan or wherever with one man and his dog at it and little or no media coverage.
Or
you stay at home, train and play away with the club, aiming to peak for the club championship final (far bigger crowds) and if successful have a very high chance of getting through an Ulster campaign and then a serious crack at an AI semi-final in February whilst you'll not be favourites will have a decent shout of a victory, especially in recent years where it's been a while since an Ulster team has been seriously out of their depth.

What would you chose?

Any detrimental changes to the club championship structures will be the death altogether of hurling in Ulster.

[johnnycool]

Four clubs but a lot of juvenile games are played locally with other counties, Carlow have are an hour or do journey from Dublin so a lot of commuters living in Carlow rather Dublin which helps build clubs, Laois Kildare going immense work also,while Offaly need to be re-woken..

Antrim Down Derry need yo be pushing.. yes it's a journey it's time consuming but the rewards at the end is simple, quicker sharper hurling, kids developing better physically and mentally. Fear of playing bigger teams at senior level is gone..

The biggest disaster is not competing at school level, those teams are a hive of hurling while ours are not..

To compete at Joe Mc D level is some achievement with only 4 senior clubs.  They are consistent.  Compare to Antrim and Derry etc. with 2/3 times the number of clubs.

Granted, they are hurling clubs only and that's where the 'issue' is!   Derry clubs are dual clubs for the most part and football will be No. 1.  L'giel, C'dall and Ballycastle are hurling clubs with Dunloy primarily hurling with a great football underage set over recent years.

No problem with football being No.1 but I do have a problem when the fixtures are so badly planned that kids are forced to chose one over the other. That does not need to happen and happens far too often.
I've had games cancelled with dual clubs due to a football fixture being moved by a regional board to suit a development squad or other. That shouldn't happen and Croke Park need to insist that the Football No.1 County Boards set aside slots for dual clubs to take part in hurling unimpeded by football.
There's your starting point.

Then improve fixtures for clubs. The Tain league is a farce, don't need to say more.

Antrim CB are picking up the slack of other negligent county boards and asleep at the wheel Ulster Council, with teams from Down, Derry, Tyrone and Armagh looking to get into their leagues at underage and adult?

Martin Fogarty and some of his predecessors really need to start shaking the tree in Ulster as this bullshit visit once every blue moon is token gesture-ism of the highest order.

Someone needs to look at the structures of hurling in Ulster rather than run some fancy dan coaching courses once in a while.

I hear what you are saying JC and totally agree but the football counties will always put football at the top.  That's life.

The issue with Táin league is it's for the hurling clubs in 'weaker 'counties - i always see loads of game conceded during the summer.  Not sure why - football clashes?  Be good to see how many games are actually played in it.

Re: Antrim league, esp. Div. 1 it's a good league.  The reason the Táin league wouldn't work at a higher level is Antrim teams and 3 Ards teams wouldn't buy into it.  Why would they when their league is as good as it is already.

Therefore other counties see no value in a Táin league if Antrim and PF, BC and BG are not in it.

Even the most ardent of football counties should be pressed to freeing up slots for club hurling by Croke Park and the fact that they are not speaks volumes, token gesture shite from Croke Park towards true hurling development in weaker counties and a lack of understanding by those in the various HDC's who ultimately aren't interested in hurling outside the top 10/12 counties is the real problem.

[marty34]

Say over the last 20 years what was done incorrectly  in terms of ulster hurling?  Why didn't things move on from 20 years ago ?

I think the system has exposed the flaws.  When Antrim/Down went straight to an AI semi-final, they put up a decent show while Antrim got to final in '89.  All looked well in the garden. 

Couple this with the club scene- the great Dunloy team of the 90's getting to club finals while beating good teams from Munster and Leinster.  Everybody thought hurling in Ulster was ok.

Take away the direct route to AI inter-county semi-final and Ulster is badly exposed.  Slipping further down the liat.

I hear people saying, or have an opinion that Antrim should be beating Meath and Kerry etc. Why should they be thinking that?  Tradition?  It's a bit like people saying Derry shouln't be in Div. 4 in the football - they say they're too good to be there!  What's that about?  They're there because they deserve to be there. Meath have done great work at underage, so  have Kerry. 

Positively, good work is going on in Ulster, new regional clubs are being formed in various counties.  We can't be too negative!!  People may laugh at this (hurling snobbery if you will) but Cavan seniors are back hurling at inter county level.  They won last week - that's a positive.

[Milltown Row2]

I was talking traditionally with regards to beating Kerry and co.. we've let our standards slip certainty for last 15 + years, they've improved theirs, interesting to note that theses counties wouldn't have a team that would be pushing for all Ireland club titles. Baring MLR of Carlow of course

[marty34]

I was talking traditionally with regards to beating Kerry and co.. we've let our standards slip certainty for last 15 + years, they've improved theirs, interesting to note that theses counties wouldn't have a team that would be pushing for all Ireland club titles. Baring MLR of Carlow of course

Fair point MR.  If you are without 7/8 players, who are training for an AI club semi-final, from November onwards, then the county will suffer in the national league.  Very hard to get them back on track with the county then I think, due to a combination of reasons.

Conversely, Kerry, with no team progressing in Munster, can take a break, then focus from November onwards on the county scene.  Continuity  is hard to beat with the same panel training together from before Christmas.