Conway quits Tyrone funding body

[orangeman]

O'Neill do you mean that some club players in Tyrone are getting paid ? You're probably referring to soccer players here ?

[altovito]

of course it goes on behind closed doors.this doesnt say it makes it right

[Leo]

O'Neill has a good point about players going to USA and so I have considered where real  pay for play exists:

1 Stateside - the blind eye has been turned for years and the contribution that has accrued to the GAA in USA is NIL.
2 Aussie Rules series - dressed up as subventions for travel, etc. (Huge amounts for the away series)
3 Payment in kind - cars from sponsors or supporters clubs.
4 Managerial payments - club and county level
5 Managerial incentives - free family holidays have been granted in a number of instances

The GAA never wanted to address any of these issues and hoped to ignore the GPA as well, which is why we now have this mess.

[his holiness nb]

Its amazing that all the anti-GPA supporters want definitive proof to back up any allegation about players/managers etc being paid - but yet when asked to give definitive proof that the GPA want pay for play or that the grants are pay for play and yet they can't provide them apart from a one off remark a number of years ago....

Dubsforsam, definative proof that the GPA want pay for play was their pushing for the grant.
Definintive proof that the grant is pay for play is this, it is going to intercounty players, and is given on the condition that they play championship football or hurling for their county.
You will surely agree the above as facts?
Therefore it cant be any more black and white.
Doesnt matter who is paying it, they are paid (given money) when they play. Cant be any clearer.

[orangeman]

You can dress it up whatever way you like but it amounts to a wage ( albeit in its infancy it may not be too big a wage ) but it will increase. 

[ONeill]

no

O'Neill do you mean that some club players in Tyrone are getting paid ? You're probably referring to soccer players here ?

I'm gobsmacked at the innocence on here. Fair enough, I'll not drag this out as it is pointless in the grander scale of things in terms of the grants issue.

[heganboy]

see the tax thread- nobody naming names, but these things are "open secrets" if you believe that some of your county players are not making money out of playing football, then thats fair enough- what are you getting from Santa?

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Hostility towards GPA helps fuel funding fuss
Seán Moran

On Gaelic Games: Why was there such fuss over the Sports Council funding of player awards?
My view is that it was partly driven by a pathological hostility to the Gaelic Players Association. Few of those leading the opposition to the Government scheme have a good word to say about the players' union and frequently volunteer scathing and aggressive views about the organisation.
Another motive factor is that the energy that drove opposition to the reform of Rules 21 and 42 is now channelling itself through another outlet. That doesn't mean that everyone who opposed those changes opposes the awards scheme or that everyone who supported them is in favour of the players receiving these grants. But in my view there's a fair overlap.
Those opposing the scheme have their own views: that these payments are in breach of Rule 11, governing amateur status, and that Central Council's acceptance of the Government scheme represents the birth of pay-for-play and the beginning of the end for the GAA.
Someone as committed to the association as Mark Conway in Tyrone, whose expertise has been of great assistance to his club, county, province and Croke Park committees, has decided to walk away because he believes in the above interpretation.
So people have different views on the situation and there have been intense exchanges on the subject.
But here are some facts.
The GPA campaign that resulted in public funds being committed to these awards has been a public one. It has its origins in a response to the 2002 Finance Bill by then Minister for Finance Charlie McCreevy, who included provisions allowing professional sports people substantial tax allowances and pension incentives on their earnings.
When the bill was published, an immediate response from the GAA on behalf of the then president Seán McCague issued from Croke Park:
"Mr McCague stated, however, that he was disappointed that when we had just finished the year of the volunteer, voluntary and amateur sports stars such as GAA players appear to have been discriminated against from a tax concession premise."Did anyone at the time object to this effective request from the association that its players be funded?
Anyone, apart, that is, from McCreevy, who said he wouldn't be extending tax breaks to be people with no earnings and urged the GPA to "think laterally".
When last January the then Minister for Sport, John O'Donoghue, gave an undertaking to fund the current awards scheme it was on condition that the GPA agree with the GAA a schedule of proposed expenses, to be covered by the scheme.
That agreed schedule was widely published and ratified last April by Central Council, which is meant to represent the counties through its constituent delegates and which later authorised the GAA to enter into negotiations with the Government and GPA.During the discussions there was little public comment, as would be normal practice during talks of this nature. As soon as agreement was reached - entirely within the terms accepted in April - it was published and listed for ratification by Central Council.
Yet still there have been complaints that the whole business had been done by sleight of hand and agitation for the matter to go to congress - this despite it involving no rule change and despite the fact that the counties' own representatives have had seven months since first agreeing the schedule of expenses - based on amounts of money virtually identical to what was delivered by the GAA's negotiation team two weeks ago - in which to take soundings on the matter.
You can argue that Central Council's abysmal failure to keep its counties informed lies at the heart of this particular communications deficit but Croke Park has done everything by the book. Complaints that people weren't paying attention are risible at a stage when the GAA have on the basis of doing things scrupulously correctly concluded an agreement with the Government.
Is there an argument that the GAA membership at large is entitled to draw the line on any issue it wants? In other words just because Rule 11 has read like the work of Flann O'Brien for the past decade shouldn't prevent people from declaring that the ne plus ultra has been reached on this or any issue they choose.
That's possible in an organisation as demotic as the GAA but all Croke Park can do in these circumstances is play by the rules - which of course is never an unambiguously popular course of action.
Does this mean members have been silenced on the issue?
No. If pressure groups want Rule 11 to prohibit the player awards scheme they can through clubs and counties bring forward a motion to amend the Official Guide accordingly.
Until then they have to live with the interpretation of the rule that has been standard over the past 10 years and which was again upheld last Saturday.
According to some, including Tyrone chair Pat Darcy, the association needs to amend Rule 11 in order to accommodate the scheme. Here's the rule in question:
"The Association is an amateur association. A player, team, official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games. A player, team, official or member shall not contract himself/itself to any agent other than those officially approved by Central Council. Expenses paid to all officials, players, and members shall not exceed the standard rates laid down by the Central Council. Members of the Association may not participate in full-time training. This rule shall not prohibit the payment of salaries or wages to employees of the Association."
Anyone with even a casual knowledge of how the GAA operates would have to agree it's a priceless piece of work - even allowing for the national willingness (indeed, preference) to tolerate laws and regulations that have long ago ceased to have any connection with reality.
The GAA allows players to accept money for commercial endorsements, promotional appearances, media interaction, third-level education grants and generous expenses when overseas involved in certain Gaelic games activities. What could these "payments in cash" possibly be except "in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic games"?
In other words the GAA has long taken a view - spoken or unspoken - that its amateurism is to be interpreted as not being paid a professional or semi-professional wage for playing.
The Government awards scheme is based on the GAA-GPA agreement of earlier in the year, which was framed specifically as expenses to defray costs, a schedule of out-of-pocket spending that could legitimately be reimbursed.
By accepting that schedule Central Council formally ratified the payments as expenses, not earnings.None of the above should obviate the need to bring Rule 11 into line with current realities, which clearly permit payment "in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic games". But neither should the rule be invoked whenever it suits just because the GPA is unpopular in certain quarters.


Now do the Anti-GPA people have any valid arguements to say the highlighted areas are not true?

[Leo]

DubsforSam1, well researched and cogently argued.

What strikes me is the bit about GAA players not doing full-time training - many already are, but my main interest would be in the likes of the players who in recent years have taken  a work sabbatical to concentrate on returning to fintness for games. Ring any bells up north?

[DUBSFORSAM1]

DubsforSam1, well researched and cogently argued.

What strikes me is the bit about GAA players not doing full-time training - many already are, but my main interest would be in the likes of the players who in recent years have taken  a work sabbatical to concentrate on returning to fintness for games. Ring any bells up north?

Leo as much as I would like to take credit for it but I have to give the credit to the Irish times...

[ziggysego]

I also take comment on the claim that if you do not support the grants you are automatically anti-GPA. That is the equivalent to saying that if you are a Catholic up here, you are automatically a nationalist, or that if you are opposed to American foreign policy, you are automatically anti-USA and an Al Qaeda supporter. I believe that in its early days the GPA did some good work w.r.t. the needs of players playing for senior county teams but that in the last few years I see the top table of the GPA starting to become more drunk with their own power and morphing into something that they were trying to get away from in the first place.

I fully agree with everything you said here tram. The GPA were a just organisation when they first formed in 1999 (?) I never onced things were great for inter-county players back then, indeed they weren't. The GPA were a strong voice to help improve things for them. I would even go as far to say the GPA should remain as a watchdog to ensure that the players welfare is looked after. I just don't like the turn of events recently.

Oh and to turn things on its head there tram, which forms what you said. ONeill is anti-GPA, but supports the grants.

[orangeman]

Anti GPA but supports the grants

[ONeill]

ONeill is anti-GPA, but supports the grants

I don't really subscribe to that. I don't think Dessie is an effective leader and am relatively indifferent to the GPA because of that. Perhaps if they had a more palatable figurehead I'd be a GPA supporter too but Farrell's approach makes it impossible to have any sympathy for them when faced with the derision on here and on the street/loanan.

[Puckoon]

I totally agree with Shane.  He is simply pointing out that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes!  The level of cant and hypocrisy on this thread exceeds even our usual levels found on the Board.  We all know that the amount of money moving around in the GAA at all levels is significant and where money is not handed over as cash it is provided in various benefits in kind.  The grants from Bertie are just a further addition to existing benefits and the only difference is that they are above board.  GAA has paid players for their services with International Rules, granted it wasn't much but its the principle that counts or that's what I have read on so many posts.

The issue is being clouded by the disdain and at times almost hatred of Dessie Farrell and his ability to rub everyone up the wrong way.  If the grants had been obtained without the intervention of the GPA would we see the same objections.  It's not long ago that most on this board were on the case of any county board who was rumoured to be "ill-treating" squads, we were demanding gear, mileage, money from foreign games in Croke Park, etc.  I'm part of all of that, anti-GPA but pro first class treatment of the players.

In the case of Mark Conway, the real issue is the way that decisions were taken by GAA in relation to the grants and the apparent capitualtion of the GAA in the face of a threatened strike.  On this he has taken a principled approach and should be applauded.

Everyone on the board who has a real connection to the GAA knows about money or benefits in kind going to people in the association and could quote an example or two.

Every month I pay by direct debit £25 to the "Friends of Armagh", £10 to the QUB Sean O'Neill Academy and £5 to a local club Lotto, I always buy tickets from local clubs for development funds.  I never give a second thought to where the money eventually ends up, I trust the recepients to use it for the best interests of promoting gaelic games.

Does it bother me that the QUB fund is distributed as grants to students who play gaelic games at the university? NO!
Is this pay for play? NO!

Does it bother me that the Armagh money is being spent on the players and not being used for coaching, etc? NO!
Is this pay for play? NO!

I would reckon that most people on this board also contribute to a club lotto and never give a second thought that it might well be going towards paying towards a manager or trainer, particularly if that manager/trainer brings success.

It is time to take a step back and view the real situation. Don't get sucked in by your disdain/hatred of GPA and its leadership group.  The association needs to look at Rule 11 and the reality of GAA in the 21st century.

I think its more than just the GPA and Dessie Farrell at this stage. Im not against the Grants per se, but rather how they have been viewed by the GPA and the players who threatened (and might have followed through with) a strike. The very mention of strike was a huge middle finger towards all GAA members. If someone promised me something that was a complete bonus for doing something I love, and having the life privilege (not to mention ambition of 90% of the footballing/hurling populace of Ireland) to play intercounty football/hurling for my county - and I decided I wasnt going to lift a finger until this free bonus (grant) was handed over to me.... Well Id feel disgusted with myself in the long run. In this regard I can completely comprehend the sourness that has now tainted the game and the association. I still love it though, and I feel like the GPA took advantage of our love of Gaelic Games to stage this strike carryon, knowing full well that only the most stubborn of fans (POG) will abandon county games.

[ziggysego]

but Farrell's approach makes it impossible to have any sympathy for them when faced with the derision on here and on the street/loanan.

loanin

Sometimes used to refer to a narrow country road or lane.

Why not have a teach-off!