Author Topic: Congress  (Read 25348 times)

BennyCake

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Re: Congress
« Reply #300 on: October 19, 2021, 07:43:41 PM »
A league format is not a championship. A championship is knock out. Who the hell wants to see continuous matches between the same teams? Itíll be like Groundhog Day.

Their Proposal B tries to solve all the issues, and will end up solving none.


Main Street

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Re: Congress
« Reply #301 on: October 19, 2021, 10:02:02 PM »
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.

Hound

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Re: Congress
« Reply #302 on: October 20, 2021, 07:38:48 AM »
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.
Is that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.
Allowing more Div1 teams in would make a lot more games meaningless instead of the excitement that would be there with only 5 making it.

Rossfan

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Re: Congress
« Reply #303 on: October 20, 2021, 09:07:55 AM »
5 out of 8 is fair enough but the 3/1/1 from the lower Divisions is what would irk team 6.
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Louther

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Re: Congress
« Reply #304 on: October 20, 2021, 11:58:11 AM »
This narrative about the 6th place team seems to go back to trying to keep everyone in championship for as long as possible and giving teams a chance where they had a chance to earn it but havenít.

dublin7

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Re: Congress
« Reply #305 on: October 20, 2021, 12:30:18 PM »
This narrative about the 6th place team seems to go back to trying to keep everyone in championship for as long as possible and giving teams a chance where they had a chance to earn it but havenít.

Does anyone really believe the GAA will go back to the drawingboard and start again if changes aren't voted through this weekend? The provincal councils certainly don't think there's any need. The only slight adjustment they'd make is to make the provincial championships round robin based so there are more games, more hammerings and more money for themselves.

Main Street

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Re: Congress
« Reply #306 on: October 20, 2021, 01:11:44 PM »
I think not rewarding 6th place in D1 a place in the AI yet rewarding 3rd place in D3 a place in the AI and winners of D3 and D4 as a joke. Top tier teams could quite easily linger around 3rd spot in D2 for years
You're picking the very worst hypothetical and making a meal of it.

There's no system without downsides. As a Dub it's easy for me to say that there should be completely separate B and C championships like every county has for their clubs (inter and junior). And the only way you get into the top echelon is to win Inter (or Tailteann or whatever you want to call it), and that would make winning such a championship a massive achievement with a massive reward (like every inter championship in every county). However, managers, players and fans in the weaker counties don't want that, and they are the important voice, but they do want to play more competitive games.

Proposal B offers this.

Yes, there is the argument that having the Top 8 play 7 championship games against each other will only improve them further. But one of the real benefits on the new system is that it allows reward for Div 2, Div 3 and Div 4.

Is it easier to come 3rd in Div 2 or win Div 3/4 compared to coming 6th in Division 1? Yes. But so what.
I think it beggars belief that people are so concerned about the poor lads who came 6th in D1 and miss out on the knockout stages.
They've had 7 games at top championship level and they've failed to make the top 5. Their last couple of games will have been real do or die affairs. In the vast majority of years their last game will effectively be a knockout game, i.e. lose and you're out.

So in summary they deserve to be out after 7 games and a heap of losses. Allowing an extra team qualify will just devalue the league stages. This seems to be on the cards for change, but it would be a mistake and a case of people not thinking through the consequences.

As for deliberately trying to come 3rd in D2 each year? Very difficult to do in practice and the benefit and prestige of playing in D1 should ensure fair play anyway.
A heap of losses?
Tyrone finished 6th in 2017 with 7 points. Another time, 4 teams who finished 4,5,6&7th ended up all together on 6 points. There is a thin line between 6th place and those above, oft times the difference being down to the team  who plays  4 at home or 4 away.
Is that the best a 6th place team did for all the years you looked? Lost 3 and drew 1 and had 5 teams finish ahead of them. They would have known exactly what was needed over their last 2 or 3 games and failed to do it.
Allowing more Div1 teams in would make a lot more games meaningless instead of the excitement that would be there with only 5 making it.
Lost 3 and drew one  or won 3 and drew 1, is that a heap of losses or a heap of wins? Earning 6th place in div 1  under prop Bís format would mean 6th best county, whatever about the merits of the relegated 2. 
 Iíd have the 2nd place Div 2  go into the play-offs and no reward for the 3rd place failure. With only 7 games played in the league there would still be plenty of excitement to go around. Rewarding the 3rd place failure in div 2 is just a sop to get votes.

Farrandeelin

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Re: Congress
« Reply #307 on: October 20, 2021, 01:26:27 PM »
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.
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clonadmad

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Re: Congress
« Reply #308 on: October 20, 2021, 02:39:43 PM »
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.

A total of 23 votes "confirmed" then out of a total of 183

twohands!!!

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Re: Congress
« Reply #309 on: October 20, 2021, 03:41:11 PM »
7 counties have backed proposal B. Cork, Tipperary, Wexford (with clarifications) Meath, Kildare, Longford and Clare.

A total of 23 votes "confirmed" then out of a total of 183

All these counties confirmed in favour of Option B
Meath
Tipperary
Kildare
Cork
Longford
Down
Clare
Louth
Westmeath
Offaly

Warwickshire supposedly leaning towards being in favour

Delegates decide on the day (and from looking at what they have said there's a reasonable chance all of these 4 might vote in favour of Option B)
Wexford - the following is from the Wexford GAA websiter "The Senior Football Team preferred option for 2022 is Proposal B. There was clear support from Club delegates for the need for change to the status quo. It was agreed that Wexford GAAís delegates to Special Congress should consider the debate on Saturday and any proposed amendments and vote in the interest of change and Wexford GAA."
Laois
Waterford
Kerry

Individuals who have come out in favour of Option B
President Larry McCarthy and director general Tom Ryan (although he doesn't have a vote)
Ex-President Sean Kelly in favour
Ex-President John Horan called for a two year trial of Option B

The only people who have come out against it are the 4 Provincial Secretaries.

Kickham csc

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Re: Congress
« Reply #310 on: October 20, 2021, 04:07:34 PM »
Kickham, the problem with all of the above is that you would seem to be completely mental.

I mean letís be absolutely clear about something.

There are 32 counties in Ireland. Not in the GAA world, London, New York, Warrickshire etc are all counties
The bottom 17 counties in terms of population, together have a smaller population than Dublin. Yep, and how do the proposals fix that. The longer Option B lasts the stronger they will get
The bottom 10 have less than the population of Antrim. Is that the GAA population in Antrim. There's a lot of none GAA population in Antrim.
The biggest 5 counties have a bigger population than the other 27 combined. How long has this existed.... from the start of the GAA. Nothing new now
Only 9 counties have above average population.

Yet you actually imagine that itís possible by an unequal distribution of finance to smaller counties and a series of rules that would drive members out of the association, and by convoluting the fixture calendar into an unholy mess, that these disparities can be resolved. Never said anything of the sort. Your losing the run of yourself here

And anyone who disagrees with you looks like theyíre about to be portrayed as elitist. Maybe they are if the are supporting a system that will ring fence the strongest counties and set up a system to actually prevent weaker counties competing with them

The GAA is the most unequal of sporting  associations in the world, simply because it is segmented on county lines. There are other sports who have had the same problem, who actually came up with solutions to ensure level playing fields. Look at MLB, NFL in the states. Creative thinking for the good of the whole game not just the powerful few

Everything else is a symptom, not a cause. To think otherwise is batshit crazy. Getting personal again....Playing the man not the ball

Jesus Wobbler, getting personal there, playing the man not the ball!!!

quote]

So lets be honest about the proposals and what they will establish. This will result in the cementing of a small number of counties to elite status.

Small / weaker counties will just have to focus on a secondary competition that will not generate any fanfare, unless you boot the minor final away from All Ireland final day and have the "A & B " final on the same day. But will that help the development of the games?

Lets also be clear, that one of the core foundations that drove the popularity of the GAA is over, the provincial championships. In time, we will lose the days out in Clones, the Derry - Tyrone, Armagh - Down, Armagh -Tyrone derby games will be lessened  and we will have one less meaningful competition to play for.

Lastly, county football is representative elite level sport. If your not up to the standard, then its up to the county board to fix it.

I see noting wrong with a ranking system, based on 1 - League, 2 provincial championships. Range the teams from 1 to 32, with play offs with the lower ranked teams to get the 32'nd spot. Then have an all ireland championship, straight knockout, no backdoor.

It will provide the div 1 teams the benefit of playing in the higher league, and the weaker teams still have a shot of playing the big boys in an knockout.

FA cup works well, and the smaller teams all focus on getting to the 4th or 5th round when the big teams join. NCAA basket ball works well when the smaller colleges get a shot at the big boys in March madness.

Anything where the competition is ring fenced to the strong counties, will create problems down the road, just as the backdoor system did

Blowitupref

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Re: Congress
« Reply #311 on: October 20, 2021, 04:31:07 PM »
The number of votes each county gets at Saturdays congress.

Carlow 2
Dublin 5
Kildare 3
Kilkenny 2
Laois 3
Longford 2
Louth 2
Meath 3
Offaly 2
Westmeath 3
Wexford 3
Wicklow 2
Galway 4
Leitrim 2
Mayo 3
Roscommon 2
Sligo 2
Clare 3
Cork 5
Kerry 4
Limerick 4
Tipperary 4
Waterford 3
Antrim 3
Armagh 3
Cavan 2
Derry 2
Donegal 2
Down 3
Fermanagh 2
Monaghan 2
Tyrone 3

Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes

Central Council 52 votes and 7 for former presidents

As I said a number of weeks ago I'd be surprised if Proposal B isn't voted in and I don't expect to be surprised. Larry McCarthy when giving his endorsement today talked about tweaking the glaring flaws, I'd wonder will such tweaks be discussed on the floor before voting?
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armaghniac

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Re: Congress
« Reply #312 on: October 20, 2021, 04:38:04 PM »
Overseas votes UK, Canada, Australia, Asia etc have 34
votes

These should not be allowed vote or even attend a meeting concerned with the structure of the game in Ireland.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

twohands!!!

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Re: Congress
« Reply #313 on: October 20, 2021, 04:56:07 PM »
 I can't help but wonder if one of the possible rumoured amendments to Option B is a middle tier championship after the end of the league stage.

The teams who finish in 6th, 7th, and 8th position in Division 1 and the teams that finish in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th teams in Division 2 play a 8 team tournament intermediate championship.

With only 8 teams it could be run off quickly enough [less teams than both Sam Maguire and the Tailteann Cup]

Is there anyone who thinks this tweak is not an improvement to Option B?




yellowcard

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Re: Congress
« Reply #314 on: October 20, 2021, 05:00:59 PM »
I'd be surprised if proposal B is not passed especially now that the GAA president and director general have both spoken out in favour which will likely have a big sway with the overseas delegates. Haven't seen too many counties stating that they are voting to retain the status quo or maybe they are just afraid to say it publicly.