Congress

[sid waddell]

See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.

Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.

Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.

[Armagh18]

See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.

Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.

Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.

Fair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they've a second chance you'll rarely catch them twice.

[thewobbler]

No seanie I'm not. But as per form it would seem you are about to take this thread off on a tangent to suit your agenda.

Ireland is an island of some 6.5m people.

Clones sells out for one match per year, and has done as long as I've been alive. Croke park sells out for 2 matches per year.

10,000 people watching any event in Ireland is a success story.

Anyone who expects GAA matches to regularly reach 25k attendances, either cannot count, or refuses to use 6.5m as the baseline.

[BennyCake]

The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8's were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet

[sid waddell]

See it wasn't a quarter final either, of which there's 4. It was a Super 8 match, of which there's 12.

And it was mid table in terms of attendance figures for a super 8 match, nowhere near the bottom.

Sure it was winner goes to the semi loser goes home was it not? Basically a knock out quarter final. Anyway the super 8's need to go.

Had Monaghan won, Kerry were eliminated. Had Kerry won, they would have romped into the semis because they were always going to thump an already eliminated Kildare by a massive score. That would have meant Monaghan would have had to beat Galway by four or five points or something like that in what would have been an effective knockout game.

As it was, Monaghan easily pushed over an already qualified Galway in the final game and Kerry's late rally to draw in Clones counted for nothing.

Galway rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Monaghan set the tone for them rolling over and having their bellies tickled by Dublin the following week.

Fair enough. Any system other than straight knock out only favours the big teams- always a chance of catching Dublin/Kerry cold on the day but if they've a second chance you'll rarely catch them twice.

Not only that but the proposed new timing of the championship also favours Dublin and Kerry. Teams like Mayo and Donegal rely a lot on players based outside the county, who are often students in colleges a long way away from the county.

Dublin are not affected by this and my understanding is Kerry are less affected by it than Mayo or Donegal.

So that means it's much harder for the likes of Mayo and Donegal to be at full tilt in the spring months when the evenings are dark and travel is more difficult and you can't get the whole panel together as much. Plus students are consumed with exams in April and May.

Generally with Mayo over the last decade there has been a pattern where they just do enough to avoid relegation in the league in the spring and then crank things up during the long summer months to reach a position where they can have a proper crack at Dublin come August and September.

And league systems suit teams with large panels.

So any which way you cut it, this Proposal B loads the dice heavily in favour of Dublin and Kerry and an effective procession of a championship.

[sid waddell]

The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8's were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet

People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.

[Rossfan]

I go to games to support my team County or Club.
I have no interest in smells of chip vans or the 2 games a year big day types.
Anyway Proposals A and B provide for Provincial Finals so Kerry can continue to thrash hurling Counties 9 years out of 10.
The mythical Munster Hurling Final is now simply a  local squabble to decide who plays in the AI semi and quarter finals.
The Leinster SFC has been a procession 15 of the last 16 years while Dublin and Kerry have won 9 of the last 10 AIs.

[sid waddell]

I go to games to support my team County or Club.
I have no interest in smells of chip vans or the 2 games a year big day types.
Anyway Proposals A and B provide for Provincial Finals so Kerry can continue to thrash hurling Counties 9 years out of 10.
The mythical Munster Hurling Final is now simply a  local squabble to decide who plays in the AI semi and quarter finals.
The Leinster SFC has been a procession 15 of the last 16 years while Dublin and Kerry have won 9 of the last 10 AIs.

It's ironic that the self proclaimed "true Gaels" are the people who least understand what makes the GAA tick and least understand what needs to be done to maintain its place at the centre of Irish life.

It's ironic that the self proclaimed "true Gaels" are those who think like generic sports marketing suits.

[Armagh18]

The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8's were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet

People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.

Ah would you quit you're giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it's like to get to one ffs)

[thewobbler]

You're not even a member of a club Sid.

Nor have you been to Clones. Or well maybe you have once. But you have not been there among 300 for an Ulster minor league game, or among 2,000 for an Ulster u21 final, or among 5,000 for a national league game, or among 25,000 for an ulster final replay in conditions so poor that the far end of the field cannot be seen.

Your take on Gaelic Games is largely a byproduct of misty eyed nostalgia narratives from the likes of Tom Humphrey. You clearly enjoy that type of writing, but it is not reality.

5-figure crowds will sometimes turn up for McKenna Cup matches. And sometimes it's less than 1,000 people. Its the same competition, played at the same time, in the same appalling conditions, each year. Its attendances are not affected by media, by sponsorship, by team selections. It's all about the mood in the counties competing.

And the same principle applies to every intercounty match, apart from the all Ireland final.

You are not even a member of the association for crying out loud.

So do us all of favour and stop pontificating.

[sid waddell]

You're not even a member of a club Sid.

Nor have you been to Clones. Or well maybe you have once. But you have not been there among 300 for an Ulster minor league game, or among 2,000 for an Ulster u21 final, or among 5,000 for a national league game, or among 25,000 for an ulster final replay in conditions so poor that the far end of the field cannot be seen.

Your take on Gaelic Games is largely a byproduct of misty eyed nostalgia narratives from the likes of Tom Humphrey. You clearly enjoy that type of writing, but it is not reality.

5-figure crowds will sometimes turn up for McKenna Cup matches. And sometimes it's less than 1,000 people. Its the same competition, played at the same time, in the same appalling conditions, each year. Its attendances are not affected by media, by sponsorship, by team selections. It's all about the mood in the counties competing.

And the same principle applies to every intercounty match, apart from the all Ireland final.

You are not even a member of the association for crying out loud.

So do us all of favour and stop pontificating.

I do love it when somebody has absolutely nothing of substance to say yet still insists on saying something.

Empty vessels and all that.

[thewobbler]

Honest question. Have you ever been to an Ulster final?

Simple yes or no will do.

When you clarify that it's a no, read back your last 7-8 posts with an open a mind as you can.

[sid waddell]

The super 8's weren't well attended. It's like attending 3 provincial finals in 3 weeks. Lots of people can't afford it. That's what it comes down to.

Not only that , but teams might already have won their province or come the scenic route to get  there. So that's maybe 7 or 8 big games in 9-10 weeks. That's considerable cost to ordinary working folk

The super 8's were a money racket , and  fans knew it, which was why they voted with their feet

People go to inter-county matches when they know something is at stake, and for the occasion.

People come from far and wide to Ulster finals and Munster hurling finals. They are magical occasions which give a rhythm and a hope to Irish life.

When you go to an Ulster final, you go because i) something important is at stake in a sporting sense, and ii) because you're living a tradition that has been built up over a century. You go for the traffic jams, for the dead heat of mid-summer, taking in the atmosphere in the Diamond, then the walk down Fermanagh Street, a couple of pre-match pints in some sweatbox of a pub, the smell of the burger and chip vans, the walk up the hill to the ground, the cauldron atmosphere of the arena itself, and the excitement and teeming humanity of the whole thing.

It's the same with Munster hurling finals or Kerry v Cork in Killarney, if Cork are any good. In Connacht people rightly bemoan the loss of Tuam as a major venue because it was a Mecca, especially when Galway played Mayo.

You can't buy these occasions and these traditions, and once you rip them up, they're gone forever, replaced by a rationalised, utilitarian, soulless pig of a championship.

Ah would you quit you're giving me goosebumps there talking abiut Ulster final days. (As an Armagh man I can barely remember what it's like to get to one ffs)

And that's what it's about. The promise or the hope of special days. Jim McGuinness wrote very well about this a couple of weeks back.

These days are special because they matter, and they matter because they are rare. And you can't fake them, you can't multiply their frequency in an artificial way like Ger Gilroy and other sports media hacks think you can do. That way they cease to exist and more becomes less.

Proposal B is a fundamental throwing out of what the GAA competitions are and have always been about. They have always been about "on the day", at every level. And the glory of the championships is in their imperfections, that they aren't a rationalised, mathematically perfect yet soulless beast borrowed from professional sports. They take account of regional peculiarities, at every level, at provincial level, at club level. Their imperfections are a feature, not a bug. You can't turn the GAA into the AFL, which is what Proposal B aims to do. Aussie Rules has already had enough of a negative influence on Gaelic football without borrowing its competition format - and without the inherent redistribution mechanisms that sport has.

Leagues can be fun, but they're essentially ballast.

[sid waddell]

Honest question. Have you ever been to an Ulster final?

Simple yes or no will do.

When you clarify that it's a no, read back your last 7-8 posts with an open a mind as you can.

I've been to six of them - four of them in Clones (1993, 1994, 1995, 2017) plus a couple of the ones in Croke Park (although I don't really count those as proper Ulster finals) and have been up to Clones around 12 or 13 times to various matches over the years. For one of them, 1994, myself and my father went up without tickets and bought two in the Diamond from lads who had travelled up from West Limerick. Why do you think those lads had travelled all the way up from West Limerick? Because the Ulster final is a unique Irish ritual and occasion that people want to experience. They travelled up for the same reason I've been to Killarney and Thurles and Limerick and Cork for provincial finals I had no personal county involvement in.

Under Proposal B, Sunday March 13th looks a likely date for the "Ulster final" next year. I've been to Clones for a match on Sunday March 13th, when Dublin played there in the league in 2011. I've been there for Division 2 league football in the depths of February. Clones is just a wee bit different at that time of the year than it is for an Ulster final in July. But if you like your McKenna, sorry, Ulster finals played in what is still winter, I'm sure it'll be just the same occasion as it is in high summer. No difference at all.

Again, you're entitled to your opinion that 130 years of tradition is something that should be dispensed with overnight. Your opinion is wrong.

[thewobbler]

General piece of advice: more you attempt to portray yourself as a protector of Irish culture, the more confused and erratic you will become.

The (existence of provincial councils and) format of the provincial championships grew out of a need to minimise travelling distances. Then exploded in tandem with train travel (hence, Clones).

A tradition born out of necessity, and festered out of convenience, should not forcibly set the rules of today. If the Association hadn't adapted to circumstances and opportunity throughout its formative and fledgling years, it would never have prospered. Demanding we now maintain competition formats that are are imbalanced and illogical, because that's what we did 100 years ago, is wrong.

This isn't to deny the adrenaline jolt one can feel on provincial finals day. If you've got the time to kill, there is something wonderful about the population of a small provincial town increasing by 2000% for a day.

But you know what? I do believe, hand on heart, that much of that magic would spread throughout the proposed league. Not to every game. Not a lot for some games.

But I have been witness to enough electric evenings in Pairc Esler for national league games, to know that it's not actually Clones that makes the Ulster final a special day. Nor is it the competition or the trophy. It definitely nothing to do with 130 years of history. Instead, It's the full house, and the sense of anticipation for two evenly matched teams giving their absolute all to win a match.

With (mostly) smaller venues, and half of the crowd having little or no distance to travel, I really do believe the league will produce that in spades.