Cillian O'Connor wins Golden Boot Race

[Milltown Row2]

So you go know the supply was far less in the second half than the first half?

Thats a stat you haven't put up. Another stat you've not mentioned was he was marked tighter as the manager at half time gave a rollicking to his defence about the free unchallenged marks he got and two from play.

The tactic of roughing him up in the tunnel at half time could have played another part. 

[Estimator]

It's apparant that Angelo has one set of metrics to measure against O'Connor and another set for everyone else.  If O'Connor had the same scoring stats against the same teams as McShane did last year, he would definitely apply different logic:

Cathal McShane - C'Ship 2019
3-49
Ulster C'Ship
0-7 (0-2f) v Derry - Promoted from Div4
0-6 (0-4f) v Antrim - Div4
0-4 (0-3f) v Donegal - Promoted from Div2

Qualifiers
2-2 v Longford - Div3
0-5 (0-2f) v Kildare - Div2
0-5 (0-3f) v Cavan - Relegated from Div1

Super 8's
0-8 (0-5f) v Roscommon - Relegated from Div1
1-5 (0-4f) v Cork - Relegated from Div2
Didn't Play v Dublin

Semi-final
0-7 (0-3f) v Kerry - Div1

If this was O'Connor, Angelo would point out that he played in 9 games - the most of any player in the scoring charts. Giving him a decent advantage when it comes to scores.

He would also mention that he was 3rd in the scoring averages, behind Rock and O'Shea. Only 0.1 ahead of Collins (Cork).

Angelo would also state that his highest individual score in a game was 0-8, which doesn't even make the top 18 individual scores. Peter Harte makes it with 0-9.

Then Angelo would go through the team's that McShane played. First two teams played in Div4, and he should clearly score heavily against those.

Next up is the first major test, against Donegal, where he only scores 0-1 from play. He was outscored from play by McGeary and R Donnelly. Top forwards shouldn't be outscored by those two.

2-2 scored against a Div 3 side. Expected.

The only Div1 sides Tyrone faced were the relegated teams. Got lucky getting Cavan in the qualifier. That side didn't want to be there after their Ulster final defeat.

Look at Tyrone's 'Super 8' group. One side relegated in Div1 and one from Div2. Of course he should score big against those. Especially Cork after they were annihilated by the Dubs in the first game.

Then the semi final against Kerry, where he was brilliant in the first half, but missed a couple of frees in the second and disappeared when Tyrone needed him.

**I'm judging McShane by Angelo's O'Connor metrics. I think McShane had a superb year and fully deserved his All-Star. However, you can see how easy it is to pick and choose your facts/stats and how they can be presented**

[Angelo]

It's apparant that Angelo has one set of metrics to measure against O'Connor and another set for everyone else.  If O'Connor had the same scoring stats against the same teams as McShane did last year, he would definitely apply different logic:

Cathal McShane - C'Ship 2019
3-49
Ulster C'Ship
0-7 (0-2f) v Derry - Promoted from Div4
0-6 (0-4f) v Antrim - Div4
0-4 (0-3f) v Donegal - Promoted from Div2

Qualifiers
2-2 v Longford - Div3
0-5 (0-2f) v Kildare - Div2
0-5 (0-3f) v Cavan - Relegated from Div1

Super 8's
0-8 (0-5f) v Roscommon - Relegated from Div1
1-5 (0-4f) v Cork - Relegated from Div2
Didn't Play v Dublin

Semi-final
0-7 (0-3f) v Kerry - Div1

If this was O'Connor, Angelo would point out that he played in 9 games - the most of any player in the scoring charts. Giving him a decent advantage when it comes to scores.

He would also mention that he was 3rd in the scoring averages, behind Rock and O'Shea. Only 0.1 ahead of Collins (Cork).

Angelo would also state that his highest individual score in a game was 0-8, which doesn't even make the top 18 individual scores. Peter Harte makes it with 0-9.

Then Angelo would go through the team's that McShane played. First two teams played in Div4, and he should clearly score heavily against those.

Next up is the first major test, against Donegal, where he only scores 0-1 from play. He was outscored from play by McGeary and R Donnelly. Top forwards shouldn't be outscored by those two.

2-2 scored against a Div 3 side. Expected.

The only Div1 sides Tyrone faced were the relegated teams. Got lucky getting Cavan in the qualifier. That side didn't want to be there after their Ulster final defeat.

Look at Tyrone's 'Super 8' group. One side relegated in Div1 and one from Div2. Of course he should score big against those. Especially Cork after they were annihilated by the Dubs in the first game.

Then the semi final against Kerry, where he was brilliant in the first half, but missed a couple of frees in the second and disappeared when Tyrone needed him.

**I'm judging McShane by Angelo's O'Connor metrics. I think McShane had a superb year and fully deserved his All-Star. However, you can see how easy it is to pick and choose your facts/stats and how they can be presented**

McShane does an awful lot more than score though. He is the primary ball winner in what was mainly a one man full forward line, he was the primary man to win frees. You look at the difference of the type of scores they get, McShane has to win the ball against 2 or 3 defenders, beat his man and put it over the bar. Whereas O'Connor generally peels off as Mayo have men over running through and taps over points under little pressure. O'Connor has generally played with one or two ball winners inside along with him to do the dirty work. Andy Moran has some of the best movement I've seen from a forward and laid so many scores on a plate for O'Connor - he was an elite level forward.

Take the Kerry game last year for instance. McShane scored 0-03 from frees, he won 2 of the frees himself. Scored another 0-04 from play. He pretty much carried Tyrone last year. Elite forwards can do that, I haven't seen O'Connor do that. I have seen him score heavily when his team are on top but when his team aren't he struggles badly. The elite level forward can carry the battle on their own.

O'Connor has won the 0-02 from 1-54 of the frees and penalties he has taken against Dublin in contrast. He has scored 1-10 from play against them in 9 games.

That's the type of contrast we are talking about here.

A guy who can do everything in a forward line and a guy who can finish.

[larryin89]

Look , I'll tell you this,cillian would be my first man on team sheet again next year

[MayoBuck]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

[Angelo]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

[JoG2]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

Will be quiet 'round here when Angelo comes off furlough 

[Milltown Row2]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

[Angelo]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.

[Milltown Row2]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.

You've some hard on for McShane

[Angelo]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I don't see anything to change my mind.

Mayo have been the second best team by a comfortable distance over the past decade.

O'Connor has been outscored by a wing back in his own team in Championship games against Dublin.

McCurry was an example of someone who would also score heavily in that Mayo team. Is O'Connor a better forward than Rian O'Neill, Campbell, Grugan and Jamie Clarke? Very debatable.

What we do know is that unless the service and dominance is there from Mayo that O'Connor struggles.

Any team that doesn't win it's possession up the field will stop their forwards from scoring? Even you can understand that?

Why you change it to bring in Dublin yo suit your stat is bizarre

It's not as simple as that. I have seen the likes of McShane and McManus in recent seasons operating as a one man full forward line, winning ball ahead of three or four defenders, winning frees and getting scores. The elite forwards don't stand out when their team are wiping out the opponent, they stand out when their team is struggling, when they are being fed on scraps and they do the business.

As I've consistently said, O'Connor is a great finisher but he's not a great forward. He's not the type of forward who can do it himself ala Conor McManus or even Andy Moran a few years back.

You've some hard on for McShane

He was outstanding last year. Top overall scorer in the championship and from play.

[MayoBuck]

He wasn't outstanding at all in the 2019 Donegal defeat or the 2nd half against Kerry. I remember him missing easy frees and shots from play which swung the momentum towards Kerry.

[Angelo]

He wasn't outstanding at all in the 2019 Donegal defeat or the 2nd half against Kerry. I remember him missing easy frees and shots from play which swung the momentum towards Kerry.

I'm talking about his contribution from play.

He was outstanding in the second half against Kerry, consistently created chances and won frees as pretty much a lone man full forward.

I wouldn't have McShane as our free taker next year, think McKenna will take over that duty once he becomes a bit more acclimatised. I expect big things from McShane next year as the Tyrone forward line finally looks to have some real quality throughout for the first time since 2005 really.

[tonto1888]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd love OConnor in the Armagh forward line

[Angelo]

In the last few months Angelo has said Cillian wouldn't make the Armagh forward line and Darren Mccurry would score the same amount if he was from Mayo.

Do you still stand over this or can you finally admit to being wrong?

I'd love OConnor in the Armagh forward line

It's not forwards Armagh need.