ukraine regime change

[sid waddell]

So what's your thoughts on the Minsk Agreement? For or against?

Stop deflecting.

What right has Russia to tell any other country what to do?

What right has Russia to occupy another country?

Who is threatening war here?

I'll give you a hint. It isn't Ukraine. And it isn't NATO.

Ever heard of a little island called Cuba?

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is as wrong as what the US is doing to Cuba

You see again, posters here can't debate the issue without resorting to whataboutery and irrelevancies.

Cuba is irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and what Russia is doing to it.

And if yis can't look at the issue and debate it on its merits, yis are not interested in it, yis are merely parroting Russian "talking points".

It's hard for "the west" to take the moral high ground with Russia and what they're doing to Ukraine when they all sit and do nothing with the US and their ongoing actions in Cuba.

The US doesn't occupy Cuba. Nobody occupies Cuba.

Is "Cuba" all you've got to whatabout about Russian war mongering?

The sum position of you and several other posters here is the Mick Wallace/Claire Daly one, ie. "US bad, Russia good", repeat repeat repeat like a zombie.

Wallace and Daly are a f**king embarrassment to the Ireland. I hope for their sakes they're getting paid well by Russia to act as cheerleaders.

Youse lot here aren't, yis are just useful eejits.

Oh right, you've never heard about Guantanamo Bay then...

My stance on this is "Russia bad, US bad".

Is that too complex to understand?

I think you'll find the US is considerably less bad than Russia on this.

The problem is they may not have the stomach to do what needs to be done, in the same way Chamberlain didn't at Munich.

The only thing Russia understands is force. Ukraine should be armed to the teeth and backed up with western armies if needs be. 

If not, they will remain Europe's menace, and be massively emboldened to invade elsewhere.

This is a potential Germany invading Poland situation.

[weareros]

Is it naive to think the ethnic Russians in Ukraine (about 17% of population) are akin to Unionists with an empire next door that want to force an Act of Union/encroach on rest of population. The only difference is Ukraine has the outside support Ireland never had at partition or during Act of Union. Can a United Irelander justify Russia's actions here. Their ethnic minority should not be allowed decide fate of a nation, nor should that ever have happened in Ireland. Polls show there's a sizable majority that looks West.

[sid waddell]

I presume anybody who thinks Russia has a right to be in Donbas or Crimea will have no problem with a rogue re-partition of Ireland by Loyalists after a united Ireland is democratically voted for.

The Russians have been committing ethnic cleansing and/or genocide in Ukraine for centuries, ethnic cleansing and apartheid which continues against the Crimean Tatars today.

[trueblue1234]

So what's your thoughts on the Minsk Agreement? For or against?

Stop deflecting.

What right has Russia to tell any other country what to do?

What right has Russia to occupy another country?

Who is threatening war here?

I'll give you a hint. It isn't Ukraine. And it isn't NATO.

Ever heard of a little island called Cuba?

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is as wrong as what the US is doing to Cuba

You see again, posters here can't debate the issue without resorting to whataboutery and irrelevancies.

Cuba is irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and what Russia is doing to it.

And if yis can't look at the issue and debate it on its merits, yis are not interested in it, yis are merely parroting Russian "talking points".

To be fair your second post on this referenced Britain and Ireland. Bit hypocritical tbh.

Let's say in a few years' time a united Ireland is democratically voted for, and the Loyalists decide they want to create a "Ballymena Peoples Republic" and a "Newtownards People's Republic", and the Brits arm them, and the local nuts shoot down a civilian airliner using British weapons, and the Brits invade County Armagh and County Louth and decide to call it part of Britain.

And continually undermine the Dublin government and threaten to invade the whole island again.

I presume you'll be supporting the Brits and the Loyalists in that case.

Because it would be directly analogous to what Ukraine has had done to it by Russia.

Sorry that's just waffle. I didn't put my position on the conflict. I just called out your usual BS where your whinging about someone mentioning Cuba when in your second post referenced the conflict in Ireland.
Stop trying to dictate the agenda and virtually puffing your chest out and you might find discussions more productive that the usual mess that they descend into when your involved.

It isn't me that makes a mess of topics. It's narcissistic buffoons who decide to go off topic when they haven't the first idea about the topic at hand.

Have a look in the mirror.

Your making a fool of yourself. It's there for all to see. You referenced the Irish conflict. Then gave out for someone else mentioning Cuba as it's not What is being discussed. Sometimes just stop rather than doubling down.

[sid waddell]

So what's your thoughts on the Minsk Agreement? For or against?

Stop deflecting.

What right has Russia to tell any other country what to do?

What right has Russia to occupy another country?

Who is threatening war here?

I'll give you a hint. It isn't Ukraine. And it isn't NATO.

Ever heard of a little island called Cuba?

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is as wrong as what the US is doing to Cuba

You see again, posters here can't debate the issue without resorting to whataboutery and irrelevancies.

Cuba is irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and what Russia is doing to it.

And if yis can't look at the issue and debate it on its merits, yis are not interested in it, yis are merely parroting Russian "talking points".

To be fair your second post on this referenced Britain and Ireland. Bit hypocritical tbh.

Let's say in a few years' time a united Ireland is democratically voted for, and the Loyalists decide they want to create a "Ballymena Peoples Republic" and a "Newtownards People's Republic", and the Brits arm them, and the local nuts shoot down a civilian airliner using British weapons, and the Brits invade County Armagh and County Louth and decide to call it part of Britain.

And continually undermine the Dublin government and threaten to invade the whole island again.

I presume you'll be supporting the Brits and the Loyalists in that case.

Because it would be directly analogous to what Ukraine has had done to it by Russia.

Sorry that's just waffle. I didn't put my position on the conflict. I just called out your usual BS where your whinging about someone mentioning Cuba when in your second post referenced the conflict in Ireland.
Stop trying to dictate the agenda and virtually puffing your chest out and you might find discussions more productive that the usual mess that they descend into when your involved.

It isn't me that makes a mess of topics. It's narcissistic buffoons who decide to go off topic when they haven't the first idea about the topic at hand.

Have a look in the mirror.

Your making a fool of yourself. It's there for all to see. You referenced the Irish conflict. Then gave out for someone else mentioning Cuba as it's not What is being discussed. Sometimes just stop rather than doubling down.

It's "you're". And it isn't me who is doubling down.

I referenced the Irish conflict as an analogy to what is happening as regards Russia's war mongering against Ukraine. As an explainer. And boy do a lot of posters need what's happening explained to them.

Others mentioned Cuba to whatabout on behalf of Russia.

There are a lot self styled anti-imperialists out there who wouldn't know anti-imperialism if it bit them on the arse, whatabouting and defending as they are for the worst imperial regime on earth.

Billy Fitzpatrick from the "Irish Anti-War Movement" was a beauty of this genre on Liveline yesterday. Kremlin propaganda 101. "I don't support Russia but...but...but..."

A debating technique straight out of the anti-vaxxer playbook.

We all know the far right loves Russia. But there is a cohort of useful eejits on the left, communist dinosaurs stuck in a mental November 1917, who might as well be far right given how they're shilling for that Nazi wannabe Putin.

[trueblue1234]

So what's your thoughts on the Minsk Agreement? For or against?

Stop deflecting.

What right has Russia to tell any other country what to do?

What right has Russia to occupy another country?

Who is threatening war here?

I'll give you a hint. It isn't Ukraine. And it isn't NATO.

Ever heard of a little island called Cuba?

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is as wrong as what the US is doing to Cuba

You see again, posters here can't debate the issue without resorting to whataboutery and irrelevancies.

Cuba is irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and what Russia is doing to it.

And if yis can't look at the issue and debate it on its merits, yis are not interested in it, yis are merely parroting Russian "talking points".

To be fair your second post on this referenced Britain and Ireland. Bit hypocritical tbh.

Let's say in a few years' time a united Ireland is democratically voted for, and the Loyalists decide they want to create a "Ballymena Peoples Republic" and a "Newtownards People's Republic", and the Brits arm them, and the local nuts shoot down a civilian airliner using British weapons, and the Brits invade County Armagh and County Louth and decide to call it part of Britain.

And continually undermine the Dublin government and threaten to invade the whole island again.

I presume you'll be supporting the Brits and the Loyalists in that case.

Because it would be directly analogous to what Ukraine has had done to it by Russia.

Sorry that's just waffle. I didn't put my position on the conflict. I just called out your usual BS where your whinging about someone mentioning Cuba when in your second post referenced the conflict in Ireland.
Stop trying to dictate the agenda and virtually puffing your chest out and you might find discussions more productive that the usual mess that they descend into when your involved.

It isn't me that makes a mess of topics. It's narcissistic buffoons who decide to go off topic when they haven't the first idea about the topic at hand.

Have a look in the mirror.

Your making a fool of yourself. It's there for all to see. You referenced the Irish conflict. Then gave out for someone else mentioning Cuba as it's not What is being discussed. Sometimes just stop rather than doubling down.

It's "you're". And it isn't me who is doubling down.

I referenced the Irish conflict as an analogy to what is happening as regards Russia's war mongering against Ukraine. As an explainer. And boy do a lot of posters need what's happening explained to them.

Others mentioned Cuba to whatabout on behalf of Russia.

There are a lot self styled anti-imperialists out there who wouldn't know anti-imperialism if it bit them on the arse, whatabouting and defending as they are for the worst imperial regime on earth.

Billy Fitzpatrick from the "Irish Anti-War Movement" was a beauty of this genre on Liveline yesterday. Kremlin propaganda 101. "I don't support Russia but...but...but..."

A debating technique straight out of the anti-vaxxer playbook.

We all know the far right loves Russia. But there is a cohort of useful eejits on the left, communist dinosaurs stuck in a mental November 1917, who might as well be far right given how they're shilling for that Nazi wannabe Putin.

You used the Irish conflict as an analogy, someone else used Cuba. You then took a hissy fit calling their analogy whataboutary. It's your typical technic in trying to dictate the direction of the discussion. You could have just discussed why Cuba is different. And I agree it is to an extent. However in typical Sid fashion you turned the discussion toxic in trying to control the perimeters. Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Any thread with you involved tends to be one to avoid.

[sid waddell]

So what's your thoughts on the Minsk Agreement? For or against?

Stop deflecting.

What right has Russia to tell any other country what to do?

What right has Russia to occupy another country?

Who is threatening war here?

I'll give you a hint. It isn't Ukraine. And it isn't NATO.

Ever heard of a little island called Cuba?

What Russia is doing to Ukraine is as wrong as what the US is doing to Cuba

You see again, posters here can't debate the issue without resorting to whataboutery and irrelevancies.

Cuba is irrelevant. This is about Ukraine and what Russia is doing to it.

And if yis can't look at the issue and debate it on its merits, yis are not interested in it, yis are merely parroting Russian "talking points".

To be fair your second post on this referenced Britain and Ireland. Bit hypocritical tbh.

Let's say in a few years' time a united Ireland is democratically voted for, and the Loyalists decide they want to create a "Ballymena Peoples Republic" and a "Newtownards People's Republic", and the Brits arm them, and the local nuts shoot down a civilian airliner using British weapons, and the Brits invade County Armagh and County Louth and decide to call it part of Britain.

And continually undermine the Dublin government and threaten to invade the whole island again.

I presume you'll be supporting the Brits and the Loyalists in that case.

Because it would be directly analogous to what Ukraine has had done to it by Russia.

Sorry that's just waffle. I didn't put my position on the conflict. I just called out your usual BS where your whinging about someone mentioning Cuba when in your second post referenced the conflict in Ireland.
Stop trying to dictate the agenda and virtually puffing your chest out and you might find discussions more productive that the usual mess that they descend into when your involved.

It isn't me that makes a mess of topics. It's narcissistic buffoons who decide to go off topic when they haven't the first idea about the topic at hand.

Have a look in the mirror.

Your making a fool of yourself. It's there for all to see. You referenced the Irish conflict. Then gave out for someone else mentioning Cuba as it's not What is being discussed. Sometimes just stop rather than doubling down.

It's "you're". And it isn't me who is doubling down.

I referenced the Irish conflict as an analogy to what is happening as regards Russia's war mongering against Ukraine. As an explainer. And boy do a lot of posters need what's happening explained to them.

Others mentioned Cuba to whatabout on behalf of Russia.

There are a lot self styled anti-imperialists out there who wouldn't know anti-imperialism if it bit them on the arse, whatabouting and defending as they are for the worst imperial regime on earth.

Billy Fitzpatrick from the "Irish Anti-War Movement" was a beauty of this genre on Liveline yesterday. Kremlin propaganda 101. "I don't support Russia but...but...but..."

A debating technique straight out of the anti-vaxxer playbook.

We all know the far right loves Russia. But there is a cohort of useful eejits on the left, communist dinosaurs stuck in a mental November 1917, who might as well be far right given how they're shilling for that Nazi wannabe Putin.

You used the Irish conflict as an analogy, someone else used Cuba. You then took a hissy fit calling their analogy whataboutary. It's your typical technic in trying to dictate the direction of the discussion. You could have just discussed why Cuba is different. And I agree it is to an extent. However in typical Sid fashion you turned the discussion toxic in trying to control the perimeters. Anyway, I'll leave you to it. Any thread with you involved tends to be one to avoid.

Cuba is not an analogy. Cuba is not a democracy for one thing. And Cuba is not occupied. And Ukraine is not a client state of the US, like Cuba was for the Russians in 1962.

"Cuba" is a derailing tactic by those who are pro-Russian. It's not my problem if you have a problem with me calling that out, as you so clearly do.

So is "NATO".

So is "the US".

The blame is 100% on Russia here. It's a plutocratic dictatorship which already occupies part of a democracy and is threatening war on the rest of it.  How insightful it is that people refuse to recognise this without bullshit whataboutery.

[dublin7]

This thread is so depressing. I mean how f**king stupid can some people be? It's a straight forward scenario, but idiots are making it complicated.

Russia wants to invade Ukraine. (They've already invaded and claimed crimea as part of Russia)

Ukraine quite rightly are saying they don't want to be taken over by Russia and Europe/NATO are acknowledging there decision

Idiots here are criticising the US but how exacrly are they the bad guys here?

[Farrandeelin]

Getting serious now with both countries upping the ante with military drills. I guess the only question is when will Russia invade?

[Armagh18]

Getting serious now with both countries upping the ante with military drills. I guess the only question is when will Russia invade?

Read somewhere that they need to do it in the winter if they're going to do it.

[Itchy]

This thread is so depressing. I mean how f**king stupid can some people be? It's a straight forward scenario, but idiots are making it complicated.

Russia wants to invade Ukraine. (They've already invaded and claimed crimea as part of Russia)

Ukraine quite rightly are saying they don't want to be taken over by Russia and Europe/NATO are acknowledging there decision

Idiots here are criticising the US but how exacrly are they the bad guys here?

If you think it is that simple I think you are the idiot.

[dublin7]

It is that simple. Russia have already taken part of Ukraine and now want the whole country. Ukraine quite rightly aren't happy about this.

NATO are trying to convince Putin not to invade. It's not rocket science

[clonadmad]

This thread is so depressing. I mean how f**king stupid can some people be? It's a straight forward scenario, but idiots are making it complicated.

Uk wants to invade Ireland (They've already invaded and claimed Northern Ireland as part of the Uk)

Ireland quite rightly are saying they don't want to be taken over by the Uk and Europe/NATO are acknowledging their decision

Idiots here are criticizing the US but how exactly are they the bad guys here?

If you think it is that simple I think you are the idiot.

I suppose you'd be in favor of this happening also?

Whether you like it or not Ukraine is a sovereign nation and is entitled to make its own decisions as it not Putin, sees fit

[trileacman]

It is that simple. Russia have already taken part of Ukraine and now want the whole country. Ukraine quite rightly aren't happy about this.

NATO are trying to convince Putin not to invade. It's not rocket science

It's actually not that simple. Say the Irish government amassed a force on the border to retake the 6 counties of Ulster. Would that make it a "simple" scenario? Say the Spanish were threatening a takeover of Gibraltar, is that a straight-forward "Evil Spanish steal sovereign territory" situation? That's how this is being presented.

I find it depressing how people can be so easily led into believing Russia is the sole aggressor here. Intelligence being delivered by MI6 and the CIA to the large Western media outlets and your everyday Irishman is lapping it up. Has the Iraqi war or Afghan war been wiped from your memories?

What is today Belorussia and Ukraine has a very strong historical, cultural and linguistic link to the early Russian state. The very first Russia capital was based in Kiev and that state, from 800 AD, largely existed in a narrow strip from the eastern Baltic stated down to the mouth of the Danube. The territory followed both sides of the Dnieper River which courses down the very centre of the current Ukrainian state. Unlike Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Armenia or Georgia an independent Ukrainian state has never existed prior to 30 years ago. The territory, language and culture were largely contiguous with Russia. Russian is the first language in most eastern Ukrainian cities including it's 2nd largest city (*acc. to CH4 news). Ukraine has produced a great quantity of Russia's best writers, actors, dancers, soldiers and sportspeople who almost exclusively considered themselves Russian nationals from the Ukraine. Ukraine was predominantly viewed as a geographical distinction in a large Russian state.

Pro-independence sentiment only arose in 1991 following the pro-soviet coup in Russia. Ukrainian leaders had agreed to a continued union with Russia in a post-communist era only a few months earlier. Had it not been for that coup attempt, it is highly Ukraine would today exist as part of a united Russian federation. As it transpired the fear of a return of the hard-line soviets drove them to the nuclear option of declaring independence and so we have the situation in which we currently find ourselves. The 20-year economic stagnation of Russia and it's satellites has meant that increasingly the Ukrainians look to Western Europe and it's political embodiment, the EU, with admiration and desire for closer links in order to better their own country. That's understandable.

What is also understandable is that the Russian people, a proud people who hail from a country that has been either the 1st or 2nd world superpower for most of the period since the close of the Napoleonic War in 1815, should view Western Europe with a sizeable amount of distrust. Since the Crimean War in 1853 western European countries have tried to undermine successive Russian regimes. For the last 100 years 1 Western power or another has been trying to undermine Russian governments with the exception of 1991-2010, (when we eventually succeeded). And the cost of these wars to Russia have been immense. They lost 3.3 million dead in WW1, a total no other nation came close too. They lost 20 - 27 million people in WW2. To average Russians the defection of Ukraine to the West has nothing to do with democracy or economics. How could things they don't understand trump the 1300 years of shared experience that binds Russia and Ukraine? The only explanation is that once again the West is acting to undermine Russia with subversion of the Ukrainian people. That's not that hard to believe. Irish people are imbued with an enmity and distrust towards Britain for crimes much more distant than those inflicted upon Russia.

Obviously I don't agree with the current Russian belligerence and they cannot force the Ukrainian state into a reunion the people do not want (this is not the Russian intention either by the way). And I'm aware Putin is a deplorable man and ruthless totalitarian leader who doesn't believe in the principles of democracy. However I deplore the current hawkish rhetoric to be found in the US, UK, Irish and European media and general discussion. To the forefront of course are UK, US intelligence agencies who's intentions and motives are deliberately hidden from us all and have seldom been known to serve the greater good. Secondly is the old guard military types; lords, generals, congressmen and MPs and their ilk, who are desperate for a good scrap every 10-15 years to inflate their own self-importance and standing in society. Would anyone give a f**k if you were a marine for 30 years if there wasn't regular wars? I think not. Thirdly the caste of populist politicians in every country who know that the fighting is going to be done somewhere far away and none of their casualties could vote for them. So it's a easy vote-winner in a hawkish environment to stand on the soapbox telling us all to go to war. Let's see the same people stand up and take credit for it when it turns into a Syria or an Iraq or an Afghanistan. Lastly there's a press who know wars and rampant nationalism stir base emotions in people and create an increase in revenue through the extra clicks on their stories.

I could go on all night as to why the current environment and approach by Western countries to Russia is wrong (and why Germany appear to me to be the most rational) but it's getting late.

Ill just say anyone who thinks this is a simple issue is "f**king stupid" as you so eloquently put it.

[armaghniac]

Russia does not have the right to bully Ukraine because people speak Russian any more than England has the right to bully Ireland or Spain to bully Mexico. Most of this "we were there for centuries" is analogous to English claims on Ireland and equally wrong.
A political federation between Ukraine and Russia might seem a good idea, but as we in Ireland know if we had any arrangements with England they would simply try to boss the whole show. Russia has 11% of the world's landmass, that should be enough for them.