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Messages - twohands!!!

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1
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division Four 2022
« on: January 19, 2022, 05:48:17 PM »
It will be interesting to see how Spillane Jnr gets on with Sligo  https://t.co/HsaHEBv5Sg

I saw elsewhere that he didn't have any impact whatsoever with Kerry underage (wasn't on any developement squads or anything) and that he was only very much a bit part player for Templenoe when they won their club All-Ireland despite them having very limited playing numbers the last few years - when they had lads off playing with Kerry they were struggling to field a team on occasions with lads in their 40s basically playing as stand in the corner-forward position. Seems to have developed since he moved to Dublin, but he wasn't starting for Judes in the early rounds of the Dublin championship and it was only when one of their midfielders ahead of him picked up an injury that he got his chance. I did see one Judes game and kept a bit of an eye on him because of his dad and my impression was he looked a long ways off either Dublin or Kerry calling him in. I wouldn't be surprised if he has minimal impact for Sligo. Maybe he'll be a late bloomer but my initial instinct is that he's a game but limited intercounty player albeit on very limited evidence. Fair play to him for giving it a go - he could easily have said thanks but no thanks to the Sligo call given he has to know that he will probably have a lot more of the spot light on him because of his dad.

2
GAA Discussion / Re: McKenna Cup 2022
« on: January 19, 2022, 05:32:45 PM »
Nothing has changed then really. Armagh repeatedly fouling Monaghan players in scoring positions. My god it's frustrating. Also, last few mins. Get a score and don't press up on their kickout. Repeatedly let Monaghan have free possession with the game in the melting pot.

Score count from frees was 7-7, so maybe not just Armagh who should be concerned with fouling.

But with about 20 substitutions between both teams, including the removal of key players while the game was in the melting pot, this was a challenge game in all but name. Just miles in the legs for men before the league begins.

So a bit daft to try to analyse much from it. The league game between the two sides will be massive, with the loser really having their work cut out to stay up. That game is just a month away, and there was plenty of powder to be kept dry in advance of it.

I dont know.  Every game is there to be won, glorified friendly or not.  Lessons to be learned for players and coaches alike.  Years and years of persistent fouling by the Armagh team should not be dismissed because of the occasion IMO. There are no signs that this is being addressed.

I live in hope for an improvement in the league then.


That being said there were some very good performances on the night.  Midfield and Forwards still look strong, with Turbitt also still to join for the league.

God love your optimism - I'd say there isn't a hope in hell that Armagh's culture of persistent fouling/awful tackling will change until Geezer moves on.

3
GAA Discussion / Re: Munster Club Championships 2021
« on: January 19, 2022, 05:25:09 PM »
Kerry clubs win the junior & intermediate finals by a combined 39 points. Its a farce and it needs addressing, simply an unfair system that's allowing Kerry clubs to win soft All Irelands.

The big issue is the fact that so many other counties have bloated uncompetitive senior and intermediate football championships. If you look at the structures in most counties - in most of them the senior competition has the most teams, the intermediate the 2nd most and the junior the fewest. However when you look at pretty much all other sports and competitions, most of them follow a pyramid structure where the elite at the top are the fewest and as you go down the levels with lower standards the numbers increase.

Kerry's structures for clubs are far superior and the fact that pretty much every other county board hasn't tried to copy their structures as closely as possible is a damming indictment of the lack of intelligent thinking by county boards. It's an awful pity the Club Players Association aren't still in existence and didn't campaign for as many counties as possible to adopt structures as close to Kerry's as possible.  If players from intermediate and junior clubs accross the country knew how rubbish the competition structures they have in their counties are compared to how good players in intermediate and junior clubs in Kerry have it, they would be marching on Croke Park demanding immediate change.

Wondering, you can only get promoted to a higher Championship grade in Kerry by winning the Champ at the grade below, but how does the team being displaced get "relegated" in Championship terms? Via league football? If so then the quasi league/champ structure is a total load of ballix notwithstanding the fact there are only 8 clubs competing for the SC being utter ballix in the first place.

Templenoe won an AI Junior Club walloping everyone along the way, were playing SL football against Gooch/Dr Crokes but Junior Champ, with 4 Kerry senior players in their team.

The county hurlers are hawking for exemption transfers too to keep them buoyant, inglorious hoors love a day out at Croke at any level and at anyones expense


My understanding is that there is a club championship and a county championship.

Relegation and promotion are all dealt with in the club championship structure.

The league is completely separate.

From what I know the league is mainly for the club players and there seems to be nowhere near the nonsense/bother that goes on in counties where the league structure is tied to the championship.

Quote
Time for Cork football to change its nonsense grading system

Monday 17th January 2022 16:24

JOHN FINTAN DALY

The start of a new season, allied to St Finbarr's wonderful success in Thurles on Sunday, makes it timely to examine the current state of Cork football and to explore how we can improve standards both within the county and at inter-county level - especially how we can compete more effectively with our neighbours in Kerry.

No doubt, the progressive thinking of Cork County Board (in particular, CEO Kevin O'Donovan) in totally rejigging the club grading system for both league and championship has resulted in healthier and more meaningful competitions in both hurling and football.

However, what we continue to ignore are the ongoing pitiful performances of our club representatives in the Munster Junior and Intermediate football championships. While our hurling clubs continue to compete well (Ballygiblin, for example), here are some stark facts that make for shocking reading for our football fraternity: Since Canovee won at the Junior grade in 2007, there have been 15 titles fought for in Munster's Junior and Intermediate. That’s 30 championships… all won by Kerry clubs with the exception of two notables in Clyda Rovers (Intermediate, 2013) and my own club, Knocknagree (Junior, 2017), the latter being the only Cork club to beat Kerry opponents in 25 championship meetings during that same period.

Why should that be?

The lazy and uninformed answer would be, of course, that Kerry remains a football powerhouse Cork cannot compete with. In fact, the remedy for this imbalance lies entirely in Cork's own hands. Of the three club football grades in Munster, the only one pitched on a level playing field is clearly Senior. This is simply because the top grade club team from each county are competing against each other.

While the recent domination of Dr Crokes denied Cork clubs much provincial success, the emergence of other champions from Kerry will help level the playing field for Cork in the future.

Beyond senior, the green and gold domination is total and must be tackled urgently. Whereas there are five main adult grades in Cork football, Kerry has four. Therein lies the problem. It is true that Cork has more adult football clubs than the rest of Munster put together, hence more grades. Consequently, Kerry’s second-grade champions (Intermediate) play Cork’s third grade, known as Premier Intermediate (and not the Senior A second tier). Worse still, Kerry’s third grade (Premier junior) play Cork's fifth grade, Junior (and not the third grade, Premier intermediate or even fourth grade, Intermediate).

Cork cannot ignore this ongoing imbalance. While the clubs may only look inward and believe Munster titles are of little relevance to them, they should talk to those few clubs who've tasted Munster/All Ireland success to appreciate the long-term confidence and benefits it brings.

The difficulty is that many Cork clubs don’t wish to be regraded and see it as a demotion of their standing. My proposal would first be that Cork approach the GAA to seek its secondary grade champions (currently Senior A) compete in the Munster Intermediate championship and the current fourth grade, Intermediate, be rebranded as Premier Junior and enter the Munster Junior championship.

If we are then directed that the existing rules don’t allow for Cork's second grade to enter without rebranding the Senior A championship to, say a new Premier Intermediate grade, then let's do it (how come Kerry Senior hurling champions Kilmoyley were allowed play the Munster Intermediate Hurling Championship).

I say this from a position of my own club being Senior A currently but I would be in favour of doing whatever is necessary for us to meaningfully compete in Munster. If that was to become the case, then a County bye-law could be added to ensure players from that new grade could not qualify to play with their divisions in the Senior Championship.


To illustrate how difficult it is for Cork clubs to overcome Kerry opposition, just look at the relative standings of our Munster representatives in 2021. Newmarket were ranked as the 25th best Cork club team in the order of merit standings (12 in each of the Premier and Senior A grades above them). They got knocked out by Clare's Corofin without even reaching a date with Kerry champions Na Gaeil, who are ranked as the ninth-best club in the Kingdom - with only eight senior clubs above them.

Worse still, County Junior champions, Boherbue, are ranked 53rd in Cork (four grades above them, 52 clubs) while the Kerry opposition who beat them convincingly, Gneeveguilla, are ranked 25th in the Kingdom. Both Na Gaeil and Gneeveguilla went on to comfortably win provincial titles at the weekend.

The only result to buck the trend of the past 13 years was Knocknagree who overcame Dromid Pearses in 2017 even though they were ranked 56th in Cork at the time while Dromid were ranked 25th in Kerry. Any way you look at it, it is up to Cork clubs to change what is a nonsense grading system for the better.

We are currently making great strides with new management at Senior, U20 & Minor intercounty level to emerge from Kerry’s shadow and become a football powerhouse in our own right - but that won't happen easily unless the grassroots at club level start winning Munster/All Ireland club titles and, more importantly, expect and demand to do so on a regular basis.

Therein lies the challenge. It is high time the conversation turned to action from within so that we can all look forward to a better future for Cork football. Cork remains, without question, the greatest under-achiever in Gaelic football … the biggest county with by far the largest number of clubs and playing numbers, not to mention huge untapped resources. Only as a collective can it put an end to the lazy perception that it's 'really only a Hurling county that play a bit of football'.

It's time to change the narrative.

*The author is an All-Ireland winning Junior manager with Knocknagree.

The article above was posted in the Examiner on Monday. John Fintan is a wiley operator but he has to know that there is little chance of their being any change in the names of the structures in Cork any time soon. There was a big restructure only two years ago and the 2nd and 4th tier competitions had to have Senior and Intermediate in their name because if they didn't there was no way the clubs would have accepted the new structures. I'd say the chances of Cork getting any joy from the Munster Council are vanishingly tiny.

4
GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster Club SFC 2021
« on: January 16, 2022, 06:57:15 PM »
Out of Interest, I always wondered why that hand transfer was a foul.

Maybe it was felt that if a player could juggle it back and forth between hands constantly, that it would making tackling too hard ?

Maybe a hatred of the ambidextrous? I've a vivid memory of a nun whacking a lad sitting in front of me with a ruler for using his left hand to write.

Struggling to think of any one reason behind it. If the rule was abandoned would it make that much difference to the game?

The actual rule is

Quote
When a player is in possession of the ball, it may be
:-changed from one hand to the other once, with the original holding hand maintaining contact until the change is completed;

Also like a whole chunk of rules in the GAA rule book it's very badly written - a significant amount of the time when in possession you will have two hands on the ball - especially when you catch it - and it ignores this aspect completely. It just assumes a player will be holding the ball with one hand.

I think the rule book should explicitly state what the rule is with regard to hopping the ball and soloing in relation to this rule.

I've seen players switch hands with a hop on occasion and they often seem to get away with it, even though technically it's seems like it should be a foul.

Similarly with soloing I've seen occasions where a player will switch hands via the solo due to a tackle or a shoulder and and I don't think it's fully clear whether or not this should be regarded as a foul because I'm not sure if not being in full control of the ball for a micro-second means that they weren't in possession.


5
GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster Club SFC 2021
« on: January 16, 2022, 05:07:40 PM »
The thing I think Kilcoo do the best is their off the ball running.

Team-mates not in possession consistently make runs into space to offer the man in possession of the ball an excellent easy option to move the ball on.

I think it's something that isn't coached enough in Gaelic football - where to go when you team has possession in respect of the player in possession.

6
GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster Club SFC 2021
« on: January 14, 2022, 08:06:43 PM »
Kilcoo to beat Derrgonnelly
Stacks to beat Barrs
Kilmacud to beat Pearses
Kilcoo to beat Stacks
The final is game I have the most doubt about - I'm leaning towards Kilmacud at the moment but only slightly.

7
GAA Discussion / Re: FBD 2022
« on: January 14, 2022, 07:54:36 PM »
Agree with the comments on the colour of the ball/roof/posts.

Current situation is not the best on that front.

Good competitive game - Galway slightly fortunate with the result after their first half performance.

Good workout for both teams ahead of the league.

I'd be surprised if overall scoring totals in football games aren't higher inside the dome (especially at this time of year) with the lack of wind and the sureness of footing on the pitch compared to outside pitches. I think it wouldn't be reflected in higher scoring opportunities but improved conversion rates. Hurling games could be affected too.

8
GAA Discussion / Re: TG4 - Club Championships Coverage
« on: January 10, 2022, 05:44:08 PM »
FBD Connacht League final. Friday 14th January 2022
Galway v Roscommon, 6pm – Sport TG4 YouTube
(Deferred coverage TG4, 7.30pm)

9
GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster JFC/IFC 2021.
« on: January 10, 2022, 04:13:33 PM »
Certainly no confusion regarding the Kerry system. Gerrymandered to deliver an unfair weighting into the AI club series. Their use of the "novice" grade is part of the sham. They should be made to recalibrate so that Sen/Int county champs play off with the winner entering the Munster Senior Club, Kerry Junior Champs enter Munster Intermediate and Kerry Novice Champs enter Munster Junior

I saw the following on another forum a couple of weeks back regarding the Munster Junior Competition

Quote
The winner of the Junior football competitions in the various Munster counties this year

Kerry - 25th best team in the county [24 teams in the senior and intermediate football championships]

Limerick - 25th best team in the county [24 teams in the senior and intermediate football championships]

Clare - 26th best team in the county [25 teams in the senior and intermediate football championships]

Waterford - 29th best team in the county [28 teams in the senior and intermediate football championships]

Tipperary - 32nd best team in the county [31 teams in the senior and intermediate football championships]

This is a problem entirely of Cork GAA's making and the solution is entirely within Cork GAA's remit - change the names of the various tiers so there isn't 2 different tiers at senior and 2 different tiers at intermediate.

Cork had their 53rd best team - 12 at Senior + 12 at Senior A + 16 Intermediate + 12 at Intermediate A.

The reason why Cork are so out of whack, is that unlike all the other counties they enter the winner of the 5th tier competition into the Junior Competition.
The reason Cork do this is that they have 2 "Senior" tiers and 2 "Intermediate" tiers.
They enter the winner of their 3rd tier competition into the Munster Intermediate as well.

I had a look at the Ulster championships to see what the numbers looked like - this is based on last year's championships.

Junior

Tyrone - 37
Armagh - 34
Down - 33
Donegal - 29
Derry - 29
Cavan - 28
Antrim - 26
Monaghan - 21
Fermanagh - 17

Intermediate

Tyrone - 19
Armagh - 18
Down - 17
Donegal - 17
Derry - 17
Cavan - 14
Antrim - 15
Monaghan - 11
Fermanagh - 9

So while Kerry do have an advantage at Junior, it's by no means masssive. At Intermediate level there is more of an advantage and while some of this is based on Kerry having a small number of teams at Senior level, some of it is down to some counties with oversized Senior Championships.

Based on talking to people from Kerry what seems to be their big advanatage over other counties is the divisional system, whereby every player gets a chance to play in the Senior County Championship no matter what size of a club they are from and also that due to the fact that there are only 8 senior teams the senior and intermediate competitions are ferociously competitive. There are no teams just making up the numbers at Senior in Kerry. Maintaining Senior status is a serious business and there's no hand-holding about it - when you look at other counties who brought in no relegation because of COVID, I'd say you'd get laughed out of the county for suggesting that in Kerry. In a whole rake of other counties especially in those with 16 teams, the standard of the Senior County Championships seems way more forgiving and seem almost designed so that as many teams as possible can call themselves a senior team. In these counties there seems to be a number of teams every year whose main goal is avoiding relegation as opposed to winning the county championship.

The divisional system has been in place in Kerry for years and years before there was ever an All-Ireland Club competitons (even at senior).
So any suggestion that it was brought in to increase Kerry's chance of winning the Senior, Intermediate or Junior is clearly wrong.
The first winner of the All-Ireland Senior Club was a divisional side.

Also from what I can figure there is no Novice competition in Kerry - there is a Junior Premier and a Junior Competition with the Junior Premier being the 3rd tier competition and the Junior being the 4th tier.

Far too many folk seem to be looking at Kerry's structures and complaining about them instead of actually learning from what Kerry are doing.
It's clear that Kerry have the best structured club competitions in the land by a mile and this is a huge part of their success.
Any county with any bit of sense should be doing all they can to mimic Kerry's club structures as much as possible.

10
GAA Discussion / Re: McKenna Cup 2022
« on: January 09, 2022, 04:08:16 PM »
Unlimited subs in the McKenna cup. I assume the same for all the pre-season competitions.

Yeah - it's either unlimited or a very generous amount of subs in the pre-season competitions.

11
GAA Discussion / Re: Connacht Club championships 2021
« on: January 09, 2022, 04:06:25 PM »
14 wides when the opposition kicked 2, in a 2 point loss is an absolute sickener.

Horror show stuff.

12
GAA Discussion / Re: McGrath Cup
« on: January 07, 2022, 08:51:17 PM »
Cork Team

Quote
Christopher Kelly, Eire Óg
Seán Powter, Douglas
Sean Meehan, Kiskeam
Paul Ring, Aghabullogue
Cian Kiely, Ballincollig
Diarmuid Phelan, Aghada
Tadhg Corkery, Cill na Martra
Shane Merrit, Mallow
Joe Grimes, Clonakilty
Danial O’Connell, Kanturk
Brian Hurley, Castlehaven
Colm O’ Callaghan, Eire Og
Mark Cronin, Nemo Rangers
Daniel Dineen, Cill na Martra
Damien Gore, Kilmacabea
Joe Creedon, Iveleary
Paul Walsh, Kanturk
Paudie Allen, Newmarket
Kevin Crowley, Millstreet
Kevin O’Donovan, Nemo Rangers
Cillian O’Donovan, Macroom
David Buckley, Newcestown
Blake Murphy, St. Vincents
Evan Cooke, Ballincollig
Fionn Herlihy, Dohenys
Luke Fahy, Ballincollig

Fairly inexperienced looking Cork side named.
Joe Grimes is a Kerryman - a guard from Listowel who is stationed in Clonakilty.

Quote
1. Stephen Ryan (Kilrush Shamrocks)
2. Dara Conneely ​ (Ennistymon)
3. Eoghan Collins ​ (Ballyhaunis)
4. Ciaran Morrissey ​ (Kilmurry Ibrickane)
5. Cian O Dea ​ (Kilfenora) (Capt)
6. Alan Sweeney ​ (St Breckans)
7. Daniel Walsh ​ (Kilmurry Ibrickane)
8. Darragh Bohannon ​ (Shannon Gaels)
9. Darren O Neill ​ (Eire-og, Inis)
10.Emmet McMahon (Kildysart)
11. Keelan Sexton ​ (Kilmurry Ibrickane)
12. Ciaran Downes ​ (Kilmihil)
13. Mark McInerney ​ (Eire-og,Inis)
14. Joe McGann ​ (St Breckans)
15. Aaron Griffin ​ (Lissycasey)
subs:
16. Tom O Brien (St Josephs Doora Barefield)
17. Ronan Lanigan (Eire-og, Inis)
18. Jack Sheedy (St Breckans)
19. ​ Maccon Byrne (St Breckans)
20. Dan Keating (Kilmihil)
21. Padraig Kelly (St Breckans)
22. Tom McDonald (St Josephs Doora Barefield)
23 Manus Doherty (Eire-og, Inis)
24. Andrew Shannon (Kilmurry Ibrickane)
25. Brian McNamara (Cooraclare)
26. Cathal O Connor (Coolmeen)

My feeling loking at those two lineups is that Clare at 7/4 might represent a bit of value.
Not big stakes but my feeling is Collins is a superior manager to Ricken.

13
GAA Discussion / Re: McGrath Cup
« on: January 07, 2022, 08:40:05 PM »
You think Kerry use this competition to play a number of new players instead of playing near full strength. Not going to find too many new players this, way and they need to find 2/3 defenders, 1 midfielder and at least another forward.

They had 5 players make their intercounty debut (3 starting) in this game.
Out of the 15 that started, I would say only 3 are definite starters - the 2 Cliffords and Tom O'Sullivan.
There was only 1 definite stater in the 8 subs - Sean O'Shea.
Thats 4 definite starters out of 23 players.
None of the other 19 are definite starters when fit especially under a new manager.

Limerick had I think 9 players making their intercounty debut.

14
GAA Discussion / Re: UTV & BBC & RTE & TV3
« on: January 04, 2022, 12:25:39 PM »
Short piece on RTÉ there about the competitions, Justin McNulty was interviewed. RTÉ contend that a 1985 law in the 5 counties stops them having competitions without a significant element of skill. McNulty pointed out that this did not stop them from 1985 to 2018 and that the Dept in the North had said that they did not control a competition run elsewhere and it was RTÉ's business.
The interviewer, Philip Boucher-Hayes, pointed out that the competitions were basically a money making racket, where you pay to enter, but this makes it all the more reason for RTÉ to not stop people entering!

Where's the missing county?

15
GAA Discussion / Re: Ulster Club SFC 2021
« on: December 20, 2021, 07:30:04 PM »
Only 1 team will win their local championship. I wonder the amount spend by senior club teams in total within a county. Used to be rumour Dublin club teams would incentive certain players to join.

How much accuracy is there in some of these numbers being floated round? Is there a possibility they are embellished significantly?

I had a county player tell me about an infamous club in Dublin who offered him €15k to join well over a decade ago.

At some stage the Revenue are going to start targetting club managers given the amounts involved.

What could get seriously messy for the GAA is if the Revenue start tracing the payments the various managers receive and start looking for the sources of this money.

Would the sensible ones not be putting their ‘income’ (if that’s what it is, not expenses) through their account?

The sensible ones would be declaring it as income and paying tax on it.
This would probably put the individual in the clear with the Revenue.

However I'd guess there is a good chance that a significant amount probably aren't declaring it to the taxman.

An individual declaring it would potentially cause Revenue to ask where the money is coming from, which could open a nasty box of surprises from a club in question, especially if they aren't putting the full cost through the books.

If a club is paying a manager under the table I'd imagine they are straight away breaking the rules in relation to financial reporting at a minimum.

I don't know exactly what the rules are for officers/trustees of a club doing this but I'd imagine it's not dissimilar rules to directors of a business.

If a club is found to be paying a manager under the table, that pretty much has to be de facto employment which would surely have implications in terms of PRSI/pension/national insurance contributions and a whole host of other employer rules.

Depending on where the money to pay these manager is coming from and how it's transferred to them, there's probably a range of criminal/banking/money laundering laws [especially if it's money going cross border] that are being broken.

If a treasurer of a club for instance was taking money from some legitimate club source e.g. club pub/shop/lotto/fundraiser and secretly transferring it to the manager of the club, how does this look any different to the authorities to an individual stealing from the club?

I'd imagine that the authorities have pretty much turned a blind eye to it for a good while because the amounts were relatively minimal but with the increasing amounts on offer for club managers I can definitely see them start to target individuals.

If the GAA were interested in clamping down on payments to managers in clubs, they should really put together a list of all the laws and punishments clubs and individuals in clubs could be facing by paying managers.

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