You're All British in the North Now!!

Started by screenexile, October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM

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screenexile

If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Windmill abu

Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
Never underestimate the power of complaining

David McKeown

Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
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bennydorano

I've been thinking about post Brexit possibilities and what actually is it that makes you an Irish Citizen - say my kids (or me for that matter) want to live in the EU (Continent) at some point in the future - they all have Irish Passports but have no Irish Social Security / National Insurance number etc... Will Passport only cut it???

Blowitupref

I always thought Britain was Wales, England, Scotland. Add in Northern Ireland and you have the United Kingdom?
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Main Street

Quote from: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

omaghjoe

Quote from: Main Street on October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Surprisingly I agree with this to an extent...

I've come to view passports and citizenship for what they are, that is a document that entitles you access and protection to the laws of a sovereign state and allows you to enter other sovereign states.
Even tho sovereign states especially European ones frequently project themselves as nation states and equate citizenship to cultural and ethnic identity, it certainly has no right to include or exclude anyone cultural identity, because they are feck all to do your cultural identity, in fact they are really just a parasite of cultural identity that uses it for their own uses.

Bottom line is....an Irish passport doesn't make me feel more or less Irish and a British passport certainly doesn't make me feel British

If something else was desired from the Good Friday agreement it should have been more explicit because the way it is worded means nothing, the Brits prob saw a weak negotiating team on the nationalist side that didn't really fully understand things from a legal viewpoint.

David McKeown

The starting part on any form of treaty or statutory interpretation is you give meaning to all words unless to do so would result in an absurdity and that you've to try and give effect to the intent of the legislature.

The GFA as it's been interpreted conveys no special position under UK law for any Irish citizen yet the position of Irish citizens is particularly catered for and mentioned to the exclusion of all other nationalities in the GFA. That to me makes me feel it was the intention that some form of special status over and above what say Americans or the French born in the UK would have was to be created.

From the way the Belfast agreement is worded I can understand why this decision is as it was. My only argument is that wasn't the intended outcome of at least some of those negotiating the agreement. If not what was the point of specifically including the reference to Irish citizens within the GFA
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David McKeown

Quote from: Main Street on October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

That's not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you can't action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?
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Armagh18

Quote from: Windmill abu on October 14, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
Never thought of that, good point??

Armagh18

Quote from: Main Street on October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.
Allegedly you'd lose your right to vote in a border poll then?

under the bar


screenexile

Quote from: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 08:00:08 AM
Quote from: Main Street on October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
Quote from: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why it's even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

That's not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you can't action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?

I always thought having a passport for a particular country gave you access to that countries rights?? I have 3 passports and wouldn't be keen on renouncing any of them!

red hander

I'd say it's not the end of this yet as regards the courts. As an oul bigoted ballix from Ballymena famously said: Never, Never, Never!!!!!!

seafoid

The law with its black and white can never resolve something as nuanced as NI identity. That is the whole point of the GFA.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU