Messi or Ronaldo - Who's best

[Angelo]

This is as stupid as, who's better? Iron Man or Superman! Daft

Agreed, think we should all agree that we had two freaks of nature in the one era

I agree, Messi for me 

Messi is better when judged purely on his performances for Barcelona. Ronaldo is however more adaptable and if you put  him in any team in the world he makes it very significantly better. He has been superb for united, real, juve and Portugal. Messi is a genius for barca but average enough with argentina.

65 goals in 129 appearances for Argentina. I'd say that's better than average

Not when it matters most.

His record at the business end of international football is below average.

[nrico2006]

Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.

Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.

Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.

You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.

The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.

That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright.  I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best.  Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.

How did Messi carry Argentina to the final in 2014?

They scored 2 goals in 450 minutes of knockout football and conceded none. It was very much a defensive effort for Argentina and it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who  were Argentina's outstanding players in 2014. Messi struggled badly to make an impact in the knockout stages.

The final completely passed him by.

By scoring 4 goals and winning the golden ball.

[Angelo]

Messi average enough for Argentina yet look at his international record and he was one game away from winning the world cup. Top level european footballl is a higher standard than international football and he has been untouchable there.

Bullshit. The World Cup is the biggest stage there is in football. You make do with what you have, you don't have a manager come in and decide to build a team around you and buy superstars who align with your needs.

Messi's stats in the knockout stage of the World Cup are pathetic, is it a goal and a couple of assists in over 1000 minutes of football in the knockout stages? When Argentina made the final in 2014, they did so by being miserly at the back, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the star men along the way. Compare his scoring stats with Barca in the latter stages of European football and his scoring stats with Argentina in the latter stages of international football. Its like two different players. Messi relies on his teammates much more than true greats like Maradona or the Brazilian Ronaldo.

You take him out of his ideal setup and he's half the player. R9 (Brazilian one) succeeded and adapted to what was around him. His two knees went go mush before the 2002 WC and after 2 years out of the game he carried his country to a WC triumph. That is the true mark of greatness, it is why international football is the true benchmark of greatness.

The World Cup is the biggest stage but not the highest standard.

That Brazilian team that Ronaldo was on was crap alright.  I don't think you could put anyone ahead of the Brazilian Ronaldo, he was the best I have saw when he was at his best.  Messi carried Argentina to the final in 2014.

How did Messi carry Argentina to the final in 2014?

They scored 2 goals in 450 minutes of knockout football and conceded none. It was very much a defensive effort for Argentina and it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who  were Argentina's outstanding players in 2014. Messi struggled badly to make an impact in the knockout stages.

The final completely passed him by.

By scoring 4 goals and winning the golden ball.

He scored a couple of goals against Iran and Nigeria and then went missing in the knockout stages when they actually had to play some decent sides. Mascherano and Di Maria were the key men at the business end for Argentina.

Messi winning the golden ball award made an utter mockery of it. It was bad enough after Cannavaro was overlooked in 2006 but James Rodriguez was the best player on show by huge margin at the 2014 WC, Messi wasn't even top 20. He had 450 minutes of knockout football, he was Argentina's talisman and he produced one assist and his side scored 2 goals in that time. He failed to make an impression in those games, it was guys like Di Maria and Mascherano who were the key men for Argentina then.

Messi has failed in being Argentina's talisman and when people tout him as the greatest to ever play and you see how ineffective he is with Argentina in the business end of international football, you have to seriously question that label. We know two Messis, the one with Barca and the one with Argentina and they are completely alien to each other.

The reason why Messi is not there with the all time greats for me is that he relies too much on all the right parameters around him, he needs players who align with his way of playing football, he needs a tactical system that evolves around him and when these aren't in place he seems to lack the character. Let's not forget he has came in under a whole load of criticism back in Argentina, even Maradona flipped with him after the Copa America a few years back.

It's fair to say he's the best in the world right now, you can argue with CR7 at the minute but that's a matter of opinion. I think it's currently a poor era for football. The BT commentator last night claimed Pique and Van Dijk are two of the best defenders in the world right now, they would have been nowhere near the calibre of defender that the Brazilian Ronaldo or Maradona would have played against in their peaks and would have played against with little to no protection from referees.

Messi probably has one more World Cup to try and put himself in the pantheon of the all time greats, if he fails there then he shouldn't be in the discussion.

[tonto1888]

Absolute nonsense. Messi is right up there in the discussion of the greatest of all time. I agree with an earlier post you made about ronaldo. Has he not been injured as much the discussion now would be about who is the second best ever

[Angelo]

Absolute nonsense. Messi is right up there in the discussion of the greatest of all time. I agree with an earlier post you made about ronaldo. Has he not been injured as much the discussion now would be about who is the second best ever

Not until he does it at a world cup. He has gone to 4 now, the first one he gets a pass on as he was a teenager with little football played, the other three have been abject failures. We've seen many brilliant players over the years look a superstar, change club and then look a shadow of the player because they don't fit with the philosophy or style of football. Kaka, Henry,Shevchenko, Veron, Mendieta. Players who were at the top of their game in world football. What we know about Messi is that he is a supreme player with Barcelona and a good few levels below that outside of Barcelona.

If Messi moved to a club like Napoli or Arsenal, do you think they would win their domestic title or at least come very close to it the following season? Would he be able to perform to the levels he has for Barcelona in those environments? Questions we don't know the answer to but the only basis we have to judge Messi outside of Barcelona is Argentina and trying to say that Messi has been anything other than substandard for Argentina given his status in world football is being dishonest.

Barcelona like team players, they like guys who can join the play together, little passing triangles and give and goes. This is the philosophy that Guardiola installed, I think it's noticeable that players like Zlatan, Henry and Ronaldinho who all played with Messi at some point weren't able to really connect with him. They were individualists and they could not conform to being the assistants to Messi. Zlatan's book was very interesting, he actually started off his Barca career on fire but then Messi complained to Guardiola about where he was playing in it all and it all changed. You can say that Messi has proven that he is right to do that at Barcelona, I've no problem with that he has backed it up with Barca ten times over but the style of play and philosophy there has been every bit as important to Messi as Messi has been to Barcelona.

My point with Messi is that he needs the perfect ecological system to play at his best level, we've seen him out of that comfort zone and he's nowhere near the same player. To me, being able to adapt and adjust to what is around and still perform to the highest level is what separates the likes of Maradona and the Brazilian Ronaldo to the rest.

[Angelo]

Messi is the Gooch of Association Football.

In the face of adversity and when the chips are down, he disappears.

Liverpool tonight, Roma last year.

PSG the year before that it was Neymar who dragged them from the abyss.

[imtommygunn]

Did you see some of the passes he hit?

[Angelo]

Did you see some of the passes he hit?

So when the chips are down, the measure of a chap who is meant to be the greatest of all time is he hit a few nice passes?

He disappeared tonight when his team needed him, no leadership exactly like he does for Argentina, it's a reoccurring theme with him. Fantastic when everything is going well, gutless when the tide turns - there's a substantial trail of evidence now to support this.

Judge him under the parameters of a great and he fails when his team really need him.

[imtommygunn]

He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much,  that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.

Very quick to put that boot in there.

[Angelo]

He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much,  that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.

Very quick to put that boot in there.

We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.

That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.

[trailer]

Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.

Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo

How controversial. I don't believe you.

Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.

Messi confirms tonight that he shouldn't be mentioned in same breath as Maradona, Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo. Not a great player.

[mouview]

He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much,  that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.

Very quick to put that boot in there.

We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.

That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.

Maradona really delivered everytime too I suppose. Tonight changes nothing about Messi, still the GOAT.

[tonto1888]

Messi not even top 3 for me. Has it handy in a team of superstars.

Maradonna
Ronaldo
Fat Ronaldo

How controversial. I don't believe you.

Just go back and watch fat Ronaldo. He was unreal. Did it at the very top in multiple leagues with different teams and of course for his country. He was different gravy.
The fact Messi has only played for Barca I think is to his detriment. The only other side he's played for is Argentina and he has been average enough. Not for me.

Messi confirms tonight that he shouldn't be mentioned in same breath as Maradona, Ronaldo or Fat Ronaldo. Not a great player.

Trailer confirms tonight that he does not a clue about football

[Angelo]

He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much,  that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.

Very quick to put that boot in there.

We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.

That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.

Maradona really delivered everytime too I suppose. Tonight changes nothing about Messi, still the GOAT.

He delivered in the face of adversity, time and time again.

Messi doesn't - when things are great - excellent. Nights like tonight, time and time again have passed him by. You look for leaders and he's not got that character.

[Esmarelda]

He created a couple of serious chances, from not very much,  that Allison had to put in a top class performance to stop.

Very quick to put that boot in there.

We're meant to be talking about a guy who is meant to be the greatest here. It's another case of him not delivering when he is really needed.

That type of performance in adversity is what I've come to expect for him and it doesn't cut it for one of the all time greats.

Angelo, you had me thinking that you might have a point about Messi with regards to his international record, something I didn't accept before.

However, you're letting yourself down big time here. Barcelona were abysmal tonight. Messi got on the ball on a number of occasions and drove forward with little or no support and crowded out by an excellent Liverpool each time.

As mentioned above, is it the case the Maradona always produced the goods in every big game. Here's a Champions' League semi-final video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fFP9Rp3yxE. It's not to prove any point but just to refresh your memory.

If you genuinely think that Maradona or, somehow, Ronaldo from Brazil was a better player than Messi then fair enough. But please don't be telling us that tonight's performance shows that Messi isn't great.