11-Plus Proposal

[Milltown Row2]

So let get this straight, grammar school teachers have an easy ride because?

Teachers are always under pressure to get results, it doesn't matter if it's secondary or grammar schools. All schools stream their classes. That's never changed.

The 11 plus is not perfect but just lumping all ranges of kids with different levels of education together is mental. My wife works in a grammar school and never stops and the pressure to keep achieving is absolutely no difference from primary level to secondary/grammar level.

But sure close the schools is a brilliant option!

As for not getting into a grammar school or feeling crap because you didn't pass, has it changed from my time? I never gave it a second thought and not passing an exam at 10/11 years old will not define you, and if a parent has a child that's feeling that then I'd look closer at the parents.

[delgany]

I have a better idea.
Keep the 11 plus.
Bring it back it but change the rules of entry.
Grammar schools can only accept pupils who achieve an A or a B grade.
Watch as overnight most of the "grammar" schools in Northern Ireland drop their "grammar" status.
It seems to me that their are very few "grammar" schools that now only take the top 2 grades.
If there were not allowed to drop into the C and in alot of cases the D grades when there is a dip in pupil numbers or top grade pupils go to another grammar school  then they would not make their intake and thus their funding and ultimately their staffing would be under threat.

All grammar schools are completely independent organisations, financed independently by  DENI and answerable to its Board of Governors.  They are not going to cut their noses off and weaken their position ,  in terms of filling desks.
They all have admissions numbers set by DENI, as do all schools  ,so DENI,are unlikely to back track on them as  all grammar schools are over subscribed .

[AFM]

Selecting children or rejecting children is a disgrace. Telling a child he/she isn't good, smart enough. It's lazy teachers looking for the easy way out. Teach the best and to hell with the rest. No one can make a case for grammar schools.
I actually passed and attended a Grammar school, 7 years and have a good standard of education under my belt. But as a parent I see how it's just taking the easy way out as a society.

If ever there was a case for scrapping Grammar Schools!

[FermGael]

Schools are going to close.
They won't be grammar schools.
They will be secondary schools .
Why? Because as the previous poster said grammar schools are over subscribed..
Why ? Well because they are grammar schools.
You only have to look at the mess this year in several areas where grammar schools were given permission to temporarily increase there year 8 intake due to increased demand while secondary schools in the same area who were also over subscribed were not.
Also within these areas there are other schools with space who were just ignored.

Grammar school teachers don't have easy.
Anything but.


Some children fail the test and it's water of a ducks back.
Other dont and it sticks with him for a long while.
It may not define you but being labelled a failure at 10 or 11 can take a while to get over.

[johnnycool]

I was at an open meeting a few years back when it was muted that the local Comprehensive (which I had attended after passing the 11+ as it was then) was going to close and merge with similar schools in Downpatrick due to falling numbers.

The then Principal was asked a few questions from the floor in relation to falling numbers as it was pointed out to him that most of the local feeder Primary Schools numbers were holding up and he said that Grammar schools were now taking in children that the wouldn't have entertained years ago in terms of their academic ability as they'd upped their intakes for what he termed purely financial reasons.
He also said that legally a Grammar school cannot refuse a child entry if they have not filled all their intake and this obviously was squeezing the Comprehensives.

He did suggest that there wasn't enough available evidence to see how these youngsters getting into Grammar schools with less than A's fared but he did put the onus back on us parents to select the right school for our child and that might not necessarily be a Grammar school.


I attended an open night for a Belfast Grammar school and the then principal unashamedly made it clear that they teach to the top of the class and its up to the rest to keep up.

Parents need to make the decisions with their eyes wide open.

[Milltown Row2]

I know grammar (wife) and secondary teachers I see one every day and live next door to two secondary school teachers who I'm friends with. They complain about generally the same things, results, pressures from management, pay, more topics to cover less time. The only differences are students attitudes and expectations.

Grammars are expected to get high achievers (not always the case) and secondary schools are meant to get difficult students (not always the case)

[Milltown Row2]

I would have (if ever checked) been diagnosed with mild ADHD and mild dyslexia. Otherwise known in my day as very chatty (never shuts up) and could do better syndrome Otherwise known as thick! You grow out of it and develop later in life, getting a diagnosis wouldn't have made my life easier as I'd have been that kid who needs help! Not fashionable going to school with that hanging around you in the seventies or early eighties!

5/10 years ago grammar schools wouldn't have had that many classroom assistants, it's great to see in fairness. On average how many would be in a secondary school? My wife's school has 6/7

Kids were tougher back then, now parents actually look for something to blame

[tbrick18]

Grammars are expected to get high achievers (not always the case) and secondary schools are might to get difficult students (not always the case)

In non-grammars, you are almost certainly going to get "difficult" students - though that depends what you call difficult, as they could have some mild learning difficulties that is otherwise not severe enough for them to attend a Special School, or have behaviour difficulties that sees them learn better in a different environment than a standard classroom. My former secondary school has a good reputation of helping build up those with learning issues that without due attention would have been left to flounder.

High achievers and difficult students are also not mutually exclusive - you still have teaching assistants in grammar school classes where a student can be deemed a high academic achiever but still require some lesson assistance - the first off the top of my head being some of those diagnosed with mild or moderate Autism Spectrum Disorders (whom in such cases are usually at average or above average intelligence), or ADHD which it is much less about the student being hyperactivly disruptive and more about getting to concentrate on class work away from other distractions.

I remember from my short time at Omagh CBS back in the late 90's how some of my behaviours and ASD traits could be seen as being disruptive as well as requiring additional classroom assistance - I'd have thought little or nothing of them at the time. I've not great concentration levels at the best of times, and I left because I couldn't cope with the intensity, focus and depth demanded from the A-Level subjects I chose. But in more ways than one, that's how I learn. Truth be told, had I been diagnosed with ASD twenty or so years before I finally was, I probably would have been assigned a classroom assistant even though up to and including GCSEs there would have seemingly been little apparent need as I was not struggling academically in any particular area.

Personally, I think it's a total misconception that grammar schools don't have the same problems as non-grammar schools. I have 2 kids in grammar school and with some of the social/behavioural/academic/bullying issues in there, I have no doubt that all the same issues exist in both streams.
The difference may be that it's not on the same scale but I actually think it's more a case that the discipline in the grammar schools is more rigid.
There are kids who do not achieve in grammar schools, just in the same way there are those who don't achieve in non-grammar schools. But equally, the non-grammar schools also get some very high achievers.
The main difference that I have seen so far is purely around the range of subjects on offer. There is certainly a wider range of subjects available in the grammar school. However, in terms of quantity of work or quality of teaching, I haven't seen any real difference yet, although none of mine are at GCSE level yet.

I have been guilty of it myself in the past, where you think everything is rosy in the grammar school and that if my child gets in there they will associate with a better "class" of friend. But it's just not the case, that's just a very good marketing line. I know my kids have made friends that I would certainly not choose for them.

I honestly believe that if a child wants to do well in school, they will do regardless of whether they are in grammar or non grammar. For my own circumstances, we let the child decide and then 100% supported their decision. It just so happens that the local grammar has a brand new school, so come open nights the kids see all the latest kit and inevitably that's where they want to go. But I would never not want my child to go to a non-grammar because it's perceived to be of a lesser standard based purely on the fact that it is not grammar.

[trailer]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

[AFM]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Some parents really wasted their money back in my day paying for lads!  I suppose paying 35 quid an hour two or three times a week to have them tutored is the modern equivalent!

[Milltown Row2]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Some parents really wasted their money back in my day paying for lads!  I suppose paying 35 quid an hour two or three times a week to have them tutored is the modern equivalent!

If you have the money, and most kids that went to the Prep schools the parents had the money so it was ok for them to waste it

[Tony Baloney]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.

[Tony Baloney]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.

Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.

If I had the money I'd consider it too; although I think they have to come home for the weekend.

[delgany]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.

Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.

If I had the money I'd consider it too; although I think they have to come home for the weekend.

Double Cream ..... RIch and Thick !

[Jim Bob]

Can you still pay for your child to go to Grammar school?

Yes. People pay for their kids to board at the Royal School in Armagh even though they live a few miles away.

Tbf their kids are probably wee arseholes.

Mmmm.....Joe Brolly boarded at St Pats Armagh....