What's said in the confession box will no longer stay there - Church outraged

[Eamonnca1]

Vatican leader slams Irish government's confessional law as absurd
Row intensifies between Church and State after Papal Nuncio's recall
By CATHAL DERVAN, IrishCentral.com Staff Writer


A senior Catholic Church leader has slammed the Irish government's determination to force priests to reveal child sex abuse claims made in confessional boxes as the row between Ireland and the Vatican intensifies.

As Papal Nuncio to Ireland Monsignor Giuseppe Leanza prepares to return to Rome on the orders of the Pope, Irish Prime Minister Enda Kenny has engaged in another war of words with the Holy See.

Kenny and his Justice Minister Alan Shatter have again pledged to force priests to reveal anything they hear in the confessional box connected with child sex abuse.

Their vow to crack down on the church's attitude to clerical sex abuse allegations comes in the wake of the damning Cloyne Report.

Monsignor Leanza has now been recalled to Rome by the Pope to discuss the report into abuse in the Cork diocese.

And a top Vatican theologian has dismissed the government's confessional proposal as 'absurd'.

Archbishop Gianfranco Girotti, of the Vatican's Apostolic Penitentiary, has slammed the suggestion that priests should break the secrets of the confessional box and reveal details of clergy accused of child sex abuse.

"Ireland can approve all the laws it wants but it should know the church will never allow itself the obligation to betray the confessional to civil authorities," said Archbishop Gianfranco Girotti.

"It is absurd to think that priests should be obliged to betray what is said in the confessional box."

Both Prime Minister Kenny and Justice Minister Shatter have vowed to enforce the new laws despite the worsening relationship between Ireland and the Vatican.

"The plan to bring in the new law on withholding information on crimes against children and vulnerable adults will apply regardless of any internal rules of any religious grouping", said Shatter. 
"The central focus of the Government is child protection."

The decision to recall the Papal Nuncio, essentially the Vatican's ambassador to Ireland, was made in the wake of scathing and historic criticism from Kenny in the wake of the Cloyne Report.

Leanza has been summonsed back to Rome to brief Pope Benedict XVI and senior church officials on details of the report which accused the Catholic hierarchy of covering up the actions of pedophile priests.

Despite the move, Kenny has told government colleagues that he will not change his stance as he awaits a formal response from the Holy See to the report and his subsequent comments.

"The ball is very much in their court. It's become clear to them (the Vatican), that this administration has a different approach to previous administrations," a government source told the Irish Independent.

Senior government officials believe the Pope and his bishops in Rome are finally taking the Cloyne Report seriously.

Vatican deputy press officer Father Ciro Benedettini said: "The recall of the Nuncio denotes the seriousness of the situation and the Holy See's desire to face it objectively and determinedly.

"Nor does it exclude some degree of surprise and disappointment at certain excessive reactions."

Ireland's Deputy Prime Minister Eamon Gilmore told the Independent that the decision to recall the Papal Nuncio to the Vatican for consultations was a matter for the Holy See.

"The Government is awaiting the response of the Holy See to the recent report into the Catholic Diocese of Cloyne and it is to be expected that the Vatican would wish to consult in depth with the Nuncio on its response," said Gilmore.

So the attitude is that they will continue to act as if they are a law onto themselves no matter what the democratically elected government puts on the statute books. When will this institution start to learn a bit of respect for the sovereignty of nations and the rule of law?

[Pangurban]

the Church serves the laws of God, not of Man, this is a non story brought about a grand standing taoiseach, who as a catholic was well aware he was talking nonsense, The seal of the confessional is inviolate in all circumstances

[Rossfan]

Certainly diverted attention from the FG lies about Roscommon Hospital 

[Farrandeelin]

FFS, how many pricks were going to confession admitting they abused children or murdered anyone anyway. Stupid and hard law to enforce if you ask me.

[Eamonnca1]

the Church serves the laws of God, not of Man, this is a non story brought about a grand standing taoiseach, who as a catholic was well aware he was talking nonsense, The seal of the confessional is inviolate in all circumstances

Doesn't surprise me. There's about three commandments against covetousness but none against rape. No wonder they defended rapists so much. They're in for a rude awakening if they think the laws of the land don't apply to them.

[Rossfan]

How will the Civil Law know that anyone has confessed to child abuse???
The priests can't/won't tell so.......

[johnneycool]

Is this not a bit of a red herring?

It's the priests, Bishops and those in places of trust who when confided in with stories of abuse outside the confessional and either did nothing or moved the dirty hoor about to do more abusing that need to go straight to the local authorities.

Nothing to do with the sanctity of the confessional.

[Rossfan]

This thread is about what's said in the confession box ... DOH !!

[cicfada]

" The church serves the laws of god, not of man"......what kind of planet are you on? so canon law is the only law  applicable to them? christ almighty it's no wonder these rapist priests get away with it with  fools like  you that brainwashed?

[Bogball XV]

Complete non-story, showboating from Enda in an effort to show his balls.

I take it by the way Eamon you're in favour of this ludicrous proposed legislation?  How could it possibly be enforced?  Will/should it also apply to doctor/patient and lawyer/client privileged conversations?

[cicfada]

Will be kind of hard to force priests to reveal confessions as they of course believe that  state laws don't apply to them! thank God for that Canon law eh??  But what would you expect from the Catholic Church where every  officiating cleric, all the way up has to obey the person above them and that goes all the way  to the top..the  pope who of course can never be wrong in matters of church as the church has itself decreed! Some power to have all the same!

[Shamrock Shore]

It's a load of nonsense as a confession to a priest, be it in the confessional or over pints in the pub, would not be held as evidence in a court of law as the defendent wouldn't be under caution that anything he says etc.

[Bogball XV]

It's a load of nonsense as a confession to a priest, be it in the confessional or over pints in the pub, would not be held as evidence in a court of law as the defendent wouldn't be under caution that anything he says etc.

exactly, it's just typical political populism - bertie ahern eat your heart out - well done inda.

[Tubberman]

Posted by: Bogball XV

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on Today at 12:06:49 PM

    It's a load of nonsense as a confession to a priest, be it in the confessional or over pints in the pub, would not be held as evidence in a court of law as the defendent wouldn't be under caution that anything he says etc.

exactly, it's just typical political populism - bertie ahern eat your heart out - well done inda.

That may well be the case, but I think it still worth putting the legislation in place as a matter of principle if nothing else.
Canon Law does not come above the law of the land - that point needs to be very clear in light of what's gone on in this country. There are still people (including posters on this board) who believe 'the Church' is infallible and it's only a few bad eggs who have carried out the wrongdoing.

[Bogball XV]

Posted by: Bogball XV

Quote from: Shamrock Shore on Today at 12:06:49 PM

    It's a load of nonsense as a confession to a priest, be it in the confessional or over pints in the pub, would not be held as evidence in a court of law as the defendent wouldn't be under caution that anything he says etc.

exactly, it's just typical political populism - bertie ahern eat your heart out - well done inda.

That may well be the case, but I think it still worth putting the legislation in place as a matter of principle if nothing else.Canon Law does not come above the law of the land - that point needs to be very clear in light of what's gone on in this country. There are still people (including posters on this board) who believe 'the Church' is infallible and it's only a few bad eggs who have carried out the wrongdoing.

No it isn't, it's just bullshit and it really annoys me. 

Imo canon law and civil law are totally separate.  We can't dictate which set of laws people adhere too, but we can and should enforce civil law when it has been violated.  The seal of confessional is a canon law which secular countries the world over have respected, probably because proposals such as FG are putting forward are utterly unenforceable and meaningless.  As I mentioned above, are they going to deny doctor/patient privilege and lawyer/client privileges too?  Are they going to specify which crimes need be reported and which don't?  Will they specify the actions which should be taken by a priest if someone through their confession also points a finger at another person as being involved?  Should the priest start investigating the accusation himself?  Maybe the priest should record all confessions to ensure the accuracy of his evidence, feck it, get a stenographer in.