The Minister, the Commissioner and the whistleblower

[Hardy]

I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?

It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.

(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)

[muppet]

I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?

It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.

(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)

It is sad really when you look at it.

There isn't even a decent protest vote any more.

[magpie seanie]

I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?

It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.

(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)

Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.

Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.

I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.

[Rossfan]

Yes, but I always felt that Kelly used his time in Croke park to advance his political ambitions.

I always felt he had one eye on the future when he allowed it to happen...
Not a true GAA man at all.

He didn't ALLOW it to happen. 70% of the GAA at Congress voted for it to happen.
I suppose in your deluded purity corner extremist world they're not "real GAA men" either.
What is a "real GAA man" in your eyes??

[magpie seanie]

He wanted it to happen so it would make him look good, not because it was the right thing for the GAA. It may well have been the right thing for the GAA but I don't believe that was his main motivation. Others seem to share that view.

[Billys Boots]

I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?

It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.

(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)

Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.

Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.

I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.

I dunno Seanie; I am, as I expected, finding it hard to 'judge' the performance of the FG/Lab coalition in view of the disaster they inherited, though as you say, they're not covering themselves in glory (though it's hard to see how they would).  I've always thought that local politics is best served by independent thought and deed and will continue to vote that way.

On another note, it's hard not to see SF becoming the new FF, with their Dev-like tactic of tying up the 'smallholders' of today.

[foxcommander]

He wanted it to happen so it would make him look good, not because it was the right thing for the GAA. It may well have been the right thing for the GAA but I don't believe that was his main motivation. Others seem to share that view.

You could tell at the time that he had a determination to force it though and pretty much blackmailed the GAA into making it happen as they didn't want to be seen as bad neighbours. The truth of his reasoning is for all to see in the propaganda on his website.

[muppet]

I hear what you're saying, Seanie, but is it Mary Lou and Mick Wallace then?

It illustrates the desperate straits we're in.

(Glens Abu, Nally - don't feel it's necessary, just this once.)

Well from what I can see Mick Wallace is a dope so he wouldn't be getting my vote. There are some interesting people in the independents and smaller parties who have been conveniently marginalised and written off as nutters by FF/FG/Lab, assisted by their propaganda machine in Donnybrook. I think some of them could do a good job. If they don't we're no worse off than we are now. I understand the unpalatable nature of SF for many but it's hard to deny that the likes of Pearse Doherty and Mary Lou don't deserve a shot at a ministry above the gombeens that have had hem over the years.

Also - if FF/FG/Lab is destroyed, as it must be, new parties will emerge. A new system of parliament and governence is the key thing though. That can't happen with FF/FG/Lab still breathing. This country is rotten to the core and only a major overhaul can attempt to fix it.

I realise I'm in the minority in my views. Unfortunately most of my fellow citizens of the ROI are satisfied to continue with this cycle of effectvely single party boom and bust government.

I dunno Seanie; I am, as I expected, finding it hard to 'judge' the performance of the FG/Lab coalition in view of the disaster they inherited, though as you say, they're not covering themselves in glory (though it's hard to see how they would).  I've always thought that local politics is best served by independent thought and deed and will continue to vote that way.

On another note, it's hard not to see SF becoming the new FF, with their Dev-like tactic of tying up the 'smallholders' of today.

They have been better than their predecessors in that they didn't bankrupt us with populism. However I think it would send them a very bad message to re-elect either of them on the back of a very mediocre term in office. The worst of the screw ups are messy but minor affairs in comparision to, for one, the McCreevy/Harney led introduction of the Financial Regulator. Now that was a world class screw up that will be felt for decades.

But Fg/Lab just feel like the worst style of Civil Service mediocrity. The old 'do nothing and you'll do nothing wrong' mentality. It is sad that FF didn't die and something else come along to take it's place.

If SF ditched it's leader in the south and softened it's ideology, Doherty and MacDonald might be minister material. O'Caolain was a decent operator as well but I don't see a lot more in therms of cabinet material.

The independents formed a technical group together, a de facto party, to gain rights, but still take their party leaders allowances individually. Thus they unite to benefit from the advantages of being a party, but won't relinquish their >€40,000 a year which they would lose in a party. Leeches.

As I, said a sad state of affairs.

[Hound]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs. 

[muppet]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

You have a point in that if the electorate doesn't take responsibility for voting for good candidates then we get what we deserve. So to say they are all rubbish is not much of a solution, even if that is exactly how I feel.

However it is stretching things to say a government back-bencher 'would be far less to blame for the mess' than the opposition. Then as now, the opposition is merely a soundbite factory with no mandate and no executive power. Government back benchers as at least closer to the action, with better access to the corridors of power.

[magpie seanie]

These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.

FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.

[weareros]

These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.

FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.

Disagree. Historically, Fine Gael/Labour have brought in a lot of social legislation that  Fianna Fáil would never have brought in (divorce, contraception, abortion, equality). FG/Lab have taken on Catholic Church, FG at the risk of losing votes since they have a conservative vote base in rural areas. Never saw a FF leader lambaste the Vatican, nor SF for that matter. Labour were only party to vote against bank guarantee so it cannot be claimed they would have done the same as FF.  As for SF, they tolerated a man working for them who had raped his daughter and they tolerate a leader who knew this man had raped his daughter. If they don't have the moral fibre to call him to resign over that, how can you say they deserve a chance to govern. It's an infinite amount of times more serious than what Shatter resigned for.

[Hound]

I think was parties did in the past should be largely irrelevant to the future.

What individuals did in the past is very relevant, and what party policies are for the future are of course very important.

Personally I think its a nonsense to say "I'll never vote FF again" when the FF candidate in my constituency was never part of a FF government, and therefore, in my view would be far less to blame for the mess than, for example, a FG or Lab person who was in opposition at the time Bertie or Cowen was leading and was egging them on to spend spend spend.

I'll be looking for the best young candidate in my constituency, regardless of what party if any they belong to. Someone who I believe had nothing to do with damaging the country and isnt part of the old croneyism and who's policies come closest to my own beliefs.

You have a point in that if the electorate doesn't take responsibility for voting for good candidates then we get what we deserve. So to say they are all rubbish is not much of a solution, even if that is exactly how I feel.

However it is stretching things to say a government back-bencher 'would be far less to blame for the mess' than the opposition. Then as now, the opposition is merely a soundbite factory with no mandate and no executive power. Government back benchers as at least closer to the action, with better access to the corridors of power.

I probably worded it incorrectly but by "part of the government" I meant all FF TDs rather than just ministers.

[Hound]

These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.

FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.

Agree with your second paragraph. I will never forgive those who were corrupt.
But as for economic policy, with all politicians on all sides calling for less taxes, more public spending and higher unemployment benefit, because everyone's number one objective was to be popular and get elected next time, there's very very few people in this country who would have done anything differently had they been part of the government at that time.

However, saying that the new candidates for FF (or FG/Lab) are corrupt because some of the old ones were, is absolute nonsense in my opinion. Its likes saying some Catholic priests were child abusers, therefore they all must be.

[magpie seanie]

These "bright young things" that are being rolled out for FF in particular are merely pawns in the game. The old faces don't fit any more so the young ones are getting fast tracked in in an effort to regain power. Same wolf, different sheep. Martin will get "shafted" (I believe this is planned a long time) conveniently to end the link with the "old FF" and give them the extra boost and eejits will fall for it. FF will be back in Govt after the next election unfortunately and that will prove how stupid/gullible Irish people really are.

FG/Lab "didn't bankrupt the country" merely because they weren't in power at the time. I do not believe they would have done anything materially different. They haven't done a single thing different since they got to power than FF would have done. Anyone who believes there is any difference, bar number of years in office, between FF/FG/Lab is deluded or naive in my view. FF appear more corrupt because they have been in power more and "know the ropes" a bit better.

Agree with your second paragraph. I will never forgive those who were corrupt.
But as for economic policy, with all politicians on all sides calling for less taxes, more public spending and higher unemployment benefit, because everyone's number one objective was to be popular and get elected next time, there's very very few people in this country who would have done anything differently had they been part of the government at that time.

However, saying that the new candidates for FF (or FG/Lab) are corrupt because some of the old ones were, is absolute nonsense in my opinion. Its likes saying some Catholic priests were child abusers, therefore they all must be.

No it's not. The Catholic Church is not designed or intended to be corrupt. Unfortunately our political system and scoiety in general is inherently corrupt.