AFL Invasion

[stephenite]

Rubbish - the notion that relations with the AFL lend a legitimacy as something of a stablemate is utter bullshit, the notion that cutting off those relations would lead to young players being less inclined to try their hand at AFL is utter bullshit. The notion that the lines are currently blurred is utter bullshit.

It's only rubbish if you ascribe absolutely zero value to publicity, and if that be the case then there would be no one spending big, big money on advertisements at all. Is that what you're saying, that publicity has no value whatsoever?

And unless you are a 13/14/15-year-old gaa playing youngster now growing up in Ireland, I'm not sure how you can be so sure about the (lack of) impact of the very high profile International Rules games on a younger psyche, and relatively impressionable minds.

So hang on, the publiclity of the International Rules series and high profile GAA players being involved in International Rules are the issue and one of the main reasons why young players are signing over to the AFL? That's a ludicrous notion, young players want to be professional athletes, whether or not the GAA continue the International Rules series has the sum total of f**k all to do with it, which is unfortunate for the likes of yourself and Mickey Harte as it blows any of the patently ludicrous arguments against it out of the water.

If I felt that the GAA cutting ties with the AFL would put a halt to the player drain I'd be all for it - it'll do nothing to stop it, the only thing that will is if we offer money to our players also.

[carribbear]

I don't think you give the young AFL recruits enough credit there Fear.

I doubt very many of them are under any illusions about the difference between the two sports when they sign their contracts. They're not idiots, they can see the differences for themselves and in most cases get to experience the differences during their trial periods with AFL clubs. I would be quite confident that each of the young lads that have committed themselves to heading to Australia knew exactly what they were getting into, so your suggestion that some are confused and see the AFL as basically  professional gaelic football does not hold any water for me.

I also don't know what you are getting at when you describe the AFL as hostile to the GAA. I'd say they are rather indifferent to us, if anything its within the GAA the the hostility exists (perhaps with good reason  ).

Most are young guys with dreams of stardom whether it's singing in the X-Factor or playing for that muenster rugby team, it's irrelevant to them. Maybe you havent hit puberty yet to realise this but when you're 17/18 and talented you think you can do anything and succeed.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So hang on, the publiclity of the International Rules series and high profile GAA players being involved in International Rules are the issue and one of the main reasons why young players are signing over to the AFL? That's a ludicrous notion, young players want to be professional athletes, whether or not the GAA continue the International Rules series has the sum total of f**k all to do with it, which is unfortunate for the likes of yourself and Mickey Harte as it blows any of the patently ludicrous arguments against it out of the water.

Just four words missing: "in your humble opinion". Question: if it has "f**k all to do with it", how would the AFL register so strongly and so positively in younger minds if there were absolutely no contact between the GAA and the AFL? Something that may not even register at a conscious level, in those same minds. And whether you can accept it or not (and just because you don't believe it doesn't necessarily make it that it ain't true), for the young, to see the GAA and the AFL co-operate on the big stage, will represent something of a confraternity, and consequently a kindred sport.

If I felt that the GAA cutting ties with the AFL would put a halt to the player drain I'd be all for it - it'll do nothing to stop it, the only thing that will is if we offer money to our players also.

As I've conceded already, it may make no difference, but one thing I can say with certainty now: it's not helping the GAA, and lose the hang-up with professionalism.

[Rossfan]

Mickey is becoming tiresome on this point and as well is talking pure balderdash.
So we stop having anything to do with the AFL .....then what?
The AFL say " oh damn!! we cant sign up any more Irish GAA lads as their top brass dont talk to us any more"

Jasus Micky will you ever re engage your brain before you  let your mouth off on this subject.

He didn't actually say that, he said that by collaborating with the AFL on the International Rules the GAA lends legitimacy to Aussie Rules as something of a stablemate of Gaelic Games, as a kind of GAA after a fashion, and that if there were no liaisons between the GAA and the AFL at an official level at all, at least young GAA players would be left in no doubt that it's acually a game that's completely distinct from,
That's not to say that it would stem the tide, but could it really be any worse, since the AFL do just about whatever they want in relation to organising trials at the present time?

Maybe you should engage your brain before you open your ears 

Aussie Rules is and has been a legitimate activity since 1858 ( long before Football was discovered in Tyrone  )
Young GAA players are well aware that Rules is a separate sport from Gaelic Football and whether the GAA does or doesnt talk to the AFL has no effect in a Free Society on them organising trials.
I know some zealots think the GAA has Godlike qualities but it hasnt got  to the stage where it can decree who does or doesnt come into Ireland so the AFL can indeed do whatever they like in organising trials.
As for Micky Harte - I see he was at it again the other day - he now wants a world series no less of Gaelic Football while he was also running down Sean Cavanagh's and the rest of the players pleasure and pride in representing their Country referring to it as the equivalent of Santa Claus.
Maybe we could ask the media to give us a few months break from Micky and his opinions.

[stephenite]

Oh for goodness sake, Setanta are showing their games, you can watch them on Youtube, TG4 carried the AFL magazine show for years, that's how it would register with them.

The opening up of Croke Park to the IRFU and the FAI would more likely have more effect on todays youngsters if you follow that logic, they have regular contact, granted they're not playing games against each other but where do subliminal messages seeping into the sub draw the line? There are former and very talented GAA players playing their code, but it's a completley ridiculous notion.

The only hang up I have with professionalism is that we cannot sustain it - but it's the only thing that's bringing these players over. You say it's currently not helping the GAA? I can guarantee you it'd be a hell of a worse without the AFL putting rules like rokie lists preventing a mass exodus.

The only thing that matters in this discussion is that young players want to be full time professional sportsmen - it really is as simple as that, these fellas don't give a shit about what contact the GAA have with the AFL - and any half baked notions you have about subliminal messages resulting out of current ties won't make one iota of difference ( and just because YOU believe it doesn't necessarily make it true)

[AFS]

I don't think you give the young AFL recruits enough credit there Fear.

I doubt very many of them are under any illusions about the difference between the two sports when they sign their contracts. They're not idiots, they can see the differences for themselves and in most cases get to experience the differences during their trial periods with AFL clubs. I would be quite confident that each of the young lads that have committed themselves to heading to Australia knew exactly what they were getting into, so your suggestion that some are confused and see the AFL as basically  professional gaelic football does not hold any water for me.

I also don't know what you are getting at when you describe the AFL as hostile to the GAA. I'd say they are rather indifferent to us, if anything its within the GAA the the hostility exists (perhaps with good reason  ).

Most are young guys with dreams of stardom whether it's singing in the X-Factor or playing for that muenster rugby team, it's irrelevant to them. Maybe you havent hit puberty yet to realise this but when you're 17/18 and talented you think you can do anything and succeed.

Whats irrelevant to them? What are you on about? This post makes absolutely no sense.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Oh for goodness sake, Setanta are showing their games, you can watch them on Youtube, TG4 carried the AFL magazine show for years, that's how it would register with them.

Chicken and egg, and Setanta are not the egg. My point still stands, the GAA's association with AFL gives them a much higher profile (which is why Setanta and others will want to showcase the AFL), otherwise, by your logic, there'd be more of them attempting to sign up for American Football, since its coverage was so much more in your face than AFL for so long. Difference is/was, the GAA had no high profile agreement with them.

The opening up of Croke Park to the IRFU and the FAI would more likely have more effect on todays youngsters if you follow that logic, they have regular contact, granted they're not playing games against each other but where do subliminal messages seeping into the sub draw the line? There are former and very talented GAA players playing their code, but it's a completley ridiculous notion.

No comparison, business relationship only, absolutely no blurring of sporting lines, though there might well be one or two who would be swayed. Plus, it's a temporary arrangement, not something where both parties are intent on promoting and developing the alliance.

The only hang up I have with professionalism is that we cannot sustain it - but it's the only thing that's bringing these players over. You say it's currently not helping the GAA? I can guarantee you it'd be a hell of a worse without the AFL putting rules like rokie lists preventing a mass exodus.

The rookie lists are not for our benefit, a fortunate side-effect perhaps.

The only thing that matters in this discussion is that young players want to be full time professional sportsmen - it really is as simple as that, these fellas don't give a shit about what contact the GAA have with the AFL - and any half baked notions you have about subliminal messages resulting out of current ties won't make one iota of difference ( and just because YOU believe it doesn't necessarily make it true)

Most young players, not all young players (Seán Cavanagh, for example, rejected that opportunity). The hard reality is that AFL represents a more familiar route to professionalism for young GAA players than any other sporting code, and it is not a fairy tale for all of them, far from it.

[stephenite]

Chicken and egg, and Setanta are not the egg. My point still stands,

No, it doesn't.

The rookie lists are not for our benefit, a fortunate side-effect perhaps.

Cutting ties with the AFL will remove recently approved restrictions on the age that clubs here can sign younger players, the problem will get worse - more young players will be lost, rookie lists are already being pushed to be extended by clubs

No comparison, business relationship only, absolutely no blurring of sporting lines, though there might well be one or two who would be swayed. Plus, it's a temporary arrangement, not something where both parties are intent on promoting and developing the alliance.

I agree there's no comparison, but if you're going start introducing utter rubbish like subliminal messages, stemming from the current ties being one of the main reasons why young players are more inclined to become pro AFL players than I am challenging you to explain exactly where those subliminal messages draw the line? If a young kid is more inclined towards AFL because of subliminal messages seeping into his subconscious when he sees the International Rules series, how is another young kid not affected by subliminal messages after seeing his County play in an All Ireland final in September and his country playing in the same stadium against the All Blacks a month or two later? You're either an expert on subliminal messages, in which case I'd appreciate it explained to me or you're deliberately introducing obtuse arguments to muddy the waters against attacks on the opinions of Mickey Harte

Most young players, not all young players (Seán Cavanagh, for example, rejected that opportunity). The hard reality is that AFL represents a more familiar route to professionalism for young GAA players than any other sporting code, and it is not a fairy tale for all of them, far from it.

I have to question that - if you were to take the last 20 years and find out how many current or recently retired professional sportsmen played GAA up to say u-16, and see how many are in the AFL, how many are playing professional soccer and how many are pro rugby players I'd be surprised if the AFL was not last on that list.

[carribbear]

A wee tale for you both, got talking to a young lad a few weeks back in the pub, turns out he is 17. His dad used to play football against my brothers back in the day.
He is supposed to be talented, has played minor for his county I think but he was telling me about his plans to go to Sydney to get a trial with the Swans. Obviously he's not short of confidence but certainly short on height and size. All the same, he has it in his head that he's going to make a career out of it (then ordering triple jack daniels at the bar) but I think you can see that the fact theres an outlet for talented GAA youngsters they are getting the notion they can be the next Tadgh Kennelly and become stars.

[stephenite]

I'd get notions of being the next Tadhg Kennelly if I was drinking triple Jack Daniels (and I'd have a few years on Tadhg) , never mind someone underage.

There is an outlet for youngsters - I don't think anyone is denying that, all I am arguing is that the outlet will still exist regardless of whether or not the International Rules series is scrapped and that it is my opinon that the outlet will only increase if ties between the two governing bodies were cut.

There are a huge numner of outlets through which we can lose players, soccer is one of the biggest threat but sadly the drink is another.

[carribbear]

I told the lad that he won't be playing much ball in the future if he continued down the triple jack road....already very grown up for a 17 year old!

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I agree there's no comparison, but if you're going start introducing utter rubbish like subliminal messages,stemming from the current ties being one of the main reasons why young players are more inclined to become pro AFL players than I am challenging you to explain exactly where those subliminal messages draw the line? If a young kid is more inclined towards AFL because of subliminal messages seeping into his subconscious when he sees the International Rules series, how is another young kid not affected by subliminal messages after seeing his County play in an All Ireland final in September and his country playing in the same stadium against the All Blacks a month or two later? You're either an expert on subliminal messages, in which case I'd appreciate it explained to me or you're deliberately introducing obtuse arguments to muddy the waters against attacks on the opinions of Mickey Harte

Simple really, the GAA and the AFL collaborate in an official sporting capacity, they bastardise each other's games to produce a high profile international dimension, which emphasises the superficial and specious similarities in their respective codes. And we're talking here about GAA players, who will be naturally inclined to pick up on perceived overlaps in the respective sports, as there will not exist a natural inclination to be attracted towards obviously different sports like rugby or soccer. We're encouraged to see a harmony between AFL and GAA (by both organisations), that's what sells the tickets for the 'International Rules', and if wizened old cynics can still see enough of a tie-in between the two, how much more will it penetrate the more permeable young mind?

Additionally, rugby and soccer in Croke park is an interim arrangement, not something that is going to be fostered and developed, so his country won't be seen playing the All-Blacks in the same stadium, for much longer.

And Mickey Harte doesn't need anyone to defend his corner for him, not what I'm about.

I have to question that - if you were to take the last 20 years and find out how many current or recently retired professional sportsmen played GAA up to say u-16, and see how many are in the AFL, how many are playing professional soccer and how many are pro rugby players I'd be surprised if the AFL was not last on that list.

Well, given that AFL recruits have to, literally, travel to the other side of the planet, as opposed to down the road or across the Irish Sea, that would hardly be surprising, would it? So, I'd be surprised too if the AFL weren't last, but also amazed that there have been so many.

Edit:
I'm not being facetious here, but since you've been so scathing about subliminal factors, if it wasn't something subliminal that has done Mayo down so catastrophically in the All-Ireland finals against Kerry in '04 and '06, then what was it?

[AFS]

I agree there's no comparison, but if you're going start introducing utter rubbish like subliminal messages,stemming from the current ties being one of the main reasons why young players are more inclined to become pro AFL players than I am challenging you to explain exactly where those subliminal messages draw the line? If a young kid is more inclined towards AFL because of subliminal messages seeping into his subconscious when he sees the International Rules series, how is another young kid not affected by subliminal messages after seeing his County play in an All Ireland final in September and his country playing in the same stadium against the All Blacks a month or two later? You're either an expert on subliminal messages, in which case I'd appreciate it explained to me or you're deliberately introducing obtuse arguments to muddy the waters against attacks on the opinions of Mickey Harte

Simple really, the GAA and the AFL collaborate in an official sporting capacity, they bastardise each other's games to produce a high profile international dimension, which emphasises the superficial and specious similarities in their respective codes. And we're talking here about GAA players, who will be naturally inclined to pick up on perceived overlaps in the respective sports, as there will not exist a natural inclination to be attracted towards obviously different sports like rugby or soccer. We're encouraged to see a harmony between AFL and GAA (by both organisations), that's what sells the tickets for the 'International Rules', and if wizened old cynics can still see enough of a tie-in between the two, how much more will it penetrate the more permeable young mind?

Additionally, rugby and soccer in Croke park is an interim arrangement, not something that is going to be fostered and developed, so his country won't be seen playing the All-Blacks in the same stadium, for much longer.

And Mickey Harte doesn't need anyone to defend his corner for him, not what I'm about.

I have to question that - if you were to take the last 20 years and find out how many current or recently retired professional sportsmen played GAA up to say u-16, and see how many are in the AFL, how many are playing professional soccer and how many are pro rugby players I'd be surprised if the AFL was not last on that list.

Well, given that AFL recruits have to, literally, travel to the other side of the planet, as opposed to down the road or across the Irish Sea, that would hardly be surprising, would it? So, I'd be surprised too if the AFL weren't last, but also amazed that there have been so many.

Edit:
I'm not being facetious here, but since you've been so scathing about subliminal factors, if it wasn't something subliminal that has done Mayo down so catastrophically in the All-Ireland finals against Kerry in '04 and '06, then what was it?

Thats the thing, there really isn't that many. There's only 11 at present, and of that 11 I wouldn't be at all surprised if 4 or 5 of them return in the next 2 or 3 years. Over the last 25 years of the International Rules series the GAA has lost about 5 or 6 players (if that many) permanently to Australia. There have been very few Tadhg Kennellys or Jim Stynes.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Eleven?...

Colm Begley (Laois)
Conor Meredith (Laois)
Zac Tuohy (Laois)
Pearce Hanley (Mayo)
Nicholas Walsh (Cavan, injured)
Setanta O'hAilpin (Cork)
Aisake O'hAilpin (Cork)
Martin Clarke (Down)
Kevin Dyas (Armagh)
Tadhg Kennelly (Kerry)
Brendan Murphy (Carlow)
Kyle Coney (Tyrone)
Brian Donnelly (Louth)
Michael Quinn (Longford)
Christopher Mc Kaigue (Derry)
James Kielt (Derry)
Niall McKeever (Antrim)

[County Player]

Some ofthoe fellas you've named near the bottom only went for trials and came home