Provincial Championships - is this the beginning of the end?

Started by onefineday, March 30, 2023, 12:22:15 AM

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onefineday

I've touched on this in the success or failure of the early championship thread, but as the big throw-in draws closer, I thought it might be worth asking for opinions.
Will the big guns give a toss about the provincial championships?  If so, why? What real incentive is there to win your province anymore?  Might the pre-season tournaments like the McGrath cup, McKenna etc actually be more useful than winning your province (okay, a step too far with that one).

In my opinion, the provinces will still have merit for the teams who haven't already qualified for the All Ireland or those like Kildare and Meath who realise there's every chance they'll be Tailtean bound, but for all the other qualifiers, provincial success might actually leave them at a disadvantage from a seeding point of view and would very likely leave them at a disadvantage from a squad fitness and injury perspective. 
From an injury p.o.v the more matches, the more chances of injuries occurring, fitness wise, it'll be difficult to play provincial football right up until early or mid May and then start into the All Ireland series 2 weeks later.  Would it be better to lose early, maybe win one game and lose your provincial semi, then get a month off for a good uninterrupted block of preparation before starting on the All Ireland series?
From a seeding p.o.v, do you really want to be a 2nd seed and be guaranteed to avoid the losing Connacht, Leinster or Munster finalists?

It'll be interesting to find out, but those teams with serious ambitions of winning an All Ireland shouldn't be putting too much emphasis on a provincial title.
And of course we all remember the joyous scenes from the past when counties have won provinces, but comparing a Westmeath win in 2004 with a Longford title in 2025 will not be comparable as the value and prestige of the tournament will have been seriously devalued in the interim.  It'll be like the McKenna cup, once it was incredibly prestigous and winning was enough to make a season a success, but as the efforts teams were putting into winning it reduced and other competitions increased in prestige, its value waned.  That's where I see the provinces going, we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best. 

Blowitupref

Influence of this thread come from reading the opinion of CiarĂ¡n McKeever?  You are using the same headline from the Irish Independent anyway.

Plan from HQ was to make provincial championships like pre-season competitions with their original proposal B format but the current format is not that and still has importance or be it Lessened

As i already said a good start is half the battle and as it stands winning your provincial championship is a round 1 match at home.  If you don't reach a provincial final you'll play a provincial champion away in round 1.  I think the preference would be to win the group which would include a week rest against your All Ireland Quarter final opponent.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Captain Obvious

Quote from: onefineday on March 30, 2023, 12:22:15 AM
we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best.

This year Kerry, Dublin will stroll to another provincial title and can rest players while doing it. Hard to see past one of Tyrone, Derry winning the 2023 Ulster championship and Connacht will be won by a Division 1 team. We are unlikely to see that until the connection of the provincial championships with the All-Ireland series is cut and i don't think the provincial councils are going to allow that happen anytime soon.

Redhand Santa

Quote from: onefineday on March 30, 2023, 12:22:15 AM
I've touched on this in the success or failure of the early championship thread, but as the big throw-in draws closer, I thought it might be worth asking for opinions.
Will the big guns give a toss about the provincial championships?  If so, why? What real incentive is there to win your province anymore?  Might the pre-season tournaments like the McGrath cup, McKenna etc actually be more useful than winning your province (okay, a step too far with that one).

In my opinion, the provinces will still have merit for the teams who haven't already qualified for the All Ireland or those like Kildare and Meath who realise there's every chance they'll be Tailtean bound, but for all the other qualifiers, provincial success might actually leave them at a disadvantage from a seeding point of view and would very likely leave them at a disadvantage from a squad fitness and injury perspective. 
From an injury p.o.v the more matches, the more chances of injuries occurring, fitness wise, it'll be difficult to play provincial football right up until early or mid May and then start into the All Ireland series 2 weeks later.  Would it be better to lose early, maybe win one game and lose your provincial semi, then get a month off for a good uninterrupted block of preparation before starting on the All Ireland series?
From a seeding p.o.v, do you really want to be a 2nd seed and be guaranteed to avoid the losing Connacht, Leinster or Munster finalists?

It'll be interesting to find out, but those teams with serious ambitions of winning an All Ireland shouldn't be putting too much emphasis on a provincial title.
And of course we all remember the joyous scenes from the past when counties have won provinces, but comparing a Westmeath win in 2004 with a Longford title in 2025 will not be comparable as the value and prestige of the tournament will have been seriously devalued in the interim.  It'll be like the McKenna cup, once it was incredibly prestigous and winning was enough to make a season a success, but as the efforts teams were putting into winning it reduced and other competitions increased in prestige, its value waned.  That's where I see the provinces going, we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best.

From an ulster county point of view there still is a certain prestige attached to winning ulster. But more importantly the likelihood is it's going to lead to a considerably easier path to a quarter final.

The chances are Mayo/Galway, Kerry and Dublin will win the other provinces. It'll be very hard to top a group when in with one of them teams (you'll be away to one of them the first game). If you don't top the group you are going to have another match the week after last group game and if win that will then be playing one of them teams (or ulster champs) in a quarter final the following week.

There is still a chance of drawing the losers of Mayo/Galway or a good ulster team in your group even if you win ulster but still looks an easier path than the above.

Rossfan

Problem is there are only 2 real Provincial Championships.
Munster is a hurling Province with 1 football County while Leinster is a training ground for Dublin (18 out of last 20 or so).

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41103556.html
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

seafoid

Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 08:53:35 AM
Problem is there are only 2 real Provincial Championships.
Munster is a hurling Province with 1 football County while Leinster is a training ground for Dublin (18 out of last 20 or so).

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41103556.html
Dublin are on a bit of a shaky scraw these days. Unfortunately so too are the flourbags and Meath.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

armaghniac

If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

yellowcard

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/it-looks-like-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-ulster-championship-armaghs-ciaran-mckeever-42408374.html

Some interesting comments from Ciaran McKeever. He says that Kerry are heading away for a 2 week training camp!! How can that be right when other counties are beating lumps out of each other up in Connacht and Ulster.

He says that Armaghs priority this year is the 'Super' 16s (is that an actual term now!). I don't understand that logic, Armagh have a draw that gives us a good chance of getting to an Ulster final, so for me that should be the priority especially given our recent lack of success at provincial level. We won't win an AI but we could realistically win Ulster.

His final point about the death of the provincial championships could well be true through. I don't think it is the death of them but they won't hold the same status that they once did and could end up being moved to being the first competition on the calendar. That would be a much fairer system, otherwise Dublin and Kerry will continue to have a massive advantage every year.   

Armagh18

Quote from: yellowcard on March 30, 2023, 12:54:44 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/it-looks-like-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-ulster-championship-armaghs-ciaran-mckeever-42408374.html

Some interesting comments from Ciaran McKeever. He says that Kerry are heading away for a 2 week training camp!! How can that be right when other counties are beating lumps out of each other up in Connacht and Ulster.

He says that Armaghs priority this year is the 'Super' 16s (is that an actual term now!). I don't understand that logic, Armagh have a draw that gives us a good chance of getting to an Ulster final, so for me that should be the priority especially given our recent lack of success at provincial level. We won't win an AI but we could realistically win Ulster.

His final point about the death of the provincial championships could well be true through. I don't think it is the death of them but they won't hold the same status that they once did and could end up being moved to being the first competition on the calendar. That would be a much fairer system, otherwise Dublin and Kerry will continue to have a massive advantage every year.   
Who let him near a mic ffs.

Eire90

was just thinking if they got rid of provincial championships linked to all ireland should they replace the preseason competitions and maybe combine connaght-ulster   leinster-munster the two winners can then play each other for another new trophy could call it the provincial champions cup or something.

blanketattack

If Kerry win Munster they go into a pretty easy Super-16 group including Sligo as 2nd seeds, which would leave them half-baked going into the 1/4 finals.
Kerry would be better off losing to Tipp and get a tougher group.
Kerry's only motivation to win Munster is so that Cork don't win it.

Seems unfair to have Leinster, Munster and Connaught runners-up as 2nd seeds when 3rd and 4th best in Ulster are better and will end up being 3rd or 4th seeds.

seafoid

The   group games will probably be an anticlimax because the super 8s were.
There aren't 16 decent teams in the country
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

twohands!!!

#12
Quote from: blanketattack on March 30, 2023, 05:20:23 PM
If Kerry win Munster they go into a pretty easy Super-16 group including Sligo as 2nd seeds, which would leave them half-baked going into the 1/4 finals.
Kerry would be better off losing to Tipp and get a tougher group.
Kerry's only motivation to win Munster is so that Cork don't win it.

Seems unfair to have Leinster, Munster and Connaught runners-up as 2nd seeds when 3rd and 4th best in Ulster are better and will end up being 3rd or 4th seeds.

I think you are wrong about the rules in relation to the Super-16s.
The only rule in the rule-book about the make-up of the groups is that the provincial winner and the team they beat in the provincial final can't be drawn in the same group.
Apart from that there are no restrictions. So if Kerry win Munster they have a one in three chance of being drawn against the Connacht, Leinster or Ulster provincial loser.

Two of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon are going to be the 2 of the 3rd seeds as only one of these can get to a provincial final.
Tyrone if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Kerry if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Monaghan if don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot.
Also because Monaghan play Tyrone at least one of those two teams will be a 3rd seed and it could be both, if either Derry or Fermanagh win that Ulster semi-final.
At the moment the final league standing for Derry and Dublin hasn't been decided - whoever wins on Sunday is ranked higher.
Whichever of Derry/Dublin win the Division 2 final and don't get to the provincial final, would be the next team to be 3rd seed (if there was still space in the 3rd seeds pot) and whoever loses the Division 2 final would be next in line to take the last 3rd seed place (if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot).
Because only one of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone can get to the Ulster final, two of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone will make up the third seeds if Kerry and Dublin get to their provincial finals.


The league rankings at the moment are

Galway/Mayo - both 1st until after Sunday - in reality the result Sunday doesn't affect anything
Roscommon 3rd
Tyrone 4th
Kerry 5th
Monaghan 6th
Derry/Dublin 7th/8th - not decided until Sunday

At the moment Westmeath are one of the 4 4th seeds.

The other 3 4th seeds are made up of the 7th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out, the 6th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out
and the 5th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are removed from the rankings.
If Westmeath gets to the Leinster final the 8th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out will replace Westmeath as the 4th 4th seed.

Armagh 9th
Donegal 10th
Louth 11th
Cork 12th
Kildare 13th
Meath 14th
Fermanagh/Cavan 15th/16th  - not decided until Sunday

Armagh are the highest ranked team who could be 4th seeds.

Rossfan

It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Cunny Funt

From Gaa.ie







3rd seed in Kerrys group will be a Div 1 team and 4th seed could be Armagh if they don't reach the Ulster final as appears to be the objective for Mr McKeever