Poll

We all know this disgusting scandal is as a result of The Church and The State, but who do you hold mostly accountable, and should therefore pay out the most in compensation to victims?

The State
The Church
Split 50/50

Author Topic: Clerical abuse!  (Read 261656 times)

pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #510 on: November 28, 2009, 09:25:20 PM »
The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.

Are they raping children or just breaking their vow of celibacy?
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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #511 on: November 28, 2009, 09:35:19 PM »
The whole thing stank to the high heavens, and if the same situation was set up tomorrow, the same thing would happen.Those in the church are people, nothing more, nothing less. They were exalted in the state - they are bound to have felt untouchable and able to do what they want.

Celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. As FOSB says, it is a perversion inducing notion: that most primeval of urges being suppressed is bound to f**k anyone up. And so, children, it being easier to hide, became the victims. The fact that they got away with the abuse owes to the relationship the church and state had. Looking back now, its easy to say it was a mess, but Ireland of not that long ago was very different to that we have now, and for all todays problems, thank f**k for that.

Everything about the church stank - my father used to say that the only people who could ever buy land were those with priests in the family, down to the alms the f**kers got - money people gave them in the dusk of their life to 'gaurantee passage into heaven'. Such a bunch of c***ts. The chruch in Ireland will never be the same, thank god.

I do know quite a few very decent priests however, and I do feel for them a bit, in that everyone looks at a priest suspiciously now, but then better that than the alternative.

I don't agree that celibacy is the entire reason for this child abuse. Paedophilles also infiltrated Swim Ireland where 3 of the highest guys in that organisation were abusing kids for years. To me this demonstrates a couple of things...

- There will always be sick sc**bag paedophilles.
- Paedophilles will always seek to get access to kids. Swim Ireland and the catholic church were easy targets.
- Paedophilles are often married men or in relationships. The fact that they are having sexual relations is not stopping them abusing kids.

Surely if a priest were being negatively affected by being celibate they would go and pay a prostitute. I don't think celibacy has any sensible reason but I don't think it changes men into Paedophilles.

milltown row

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #512 on: November 28, 2009, 10:20:15 PM »
Paedophiles are clever in that they enter Vocations like teaching, priesthood, Boy Scout leaders and other jobs that will bring them into contact with children.

The church is to blame for covering up, the state is to be blamed for ignoring pleas from victims, families are to be blamed for not listening to their children.

The celibacy is not the reason for raping children; the feckers doing it are just animals and need to be put down. But I believe the Catholic Church would be stronger if priest could marry or have partners.

I’m a non practicing Catholic, don't care much for religion and not against anyone who does.

longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #513 on: November 29, 2009, 12:12:01 AM »
I cut my stick with that shower long ago... wouldn't darken their door. Just weddings and funerals. Sick f**s. If it was any other outfit they'd be disbanded. Sad thing is tens of thousands will go to mass today and listen to their mealy mouthed bullshit and throw money on the plate. God love their wit. 
Truest words came from a priest from Derry... Michael Canny (I'll give the 'father' bit a miss  ::) ) He said, "The church has no credibility, no standing, and no moral authority."
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 12:20:47 AM by longrunsthefox »

Fear ón Srath Bán

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #514 on: November 29, 2009, 12:52:39 AM »
Once again, Fintan O'Toole calls it exactly as it is (WARNING: has the capacity to induce nausea!):

Church relationship with Irish society has itself been abusive


OPINION: The Roman Catholic Church’s great achievement in Ireland has been to so disable our capacity to think about right and wrong that parents of abused children apologised for the abusing priest

IN HIS pastoral letter of February 1979, Archbishop of Dublin Dermot Ryan drew attention to the “corruption of the young”. And he was quite specific about the forces that were responsible for it. He attacked “the modern era of enlightenment and permissiveness”, and stated that “the new frankness and openness in regard to sexual matters had not made people more healthy in mind and body, but less healthy”.

The corollary of Archbishop Ryan’s complaint was, of course, that a lack of frankness and openness in sexual matters would make for a healthier society, and would protect the young from corruption. Like the three other holders of the office scrutinised in the Murphy report, Ryan certainly practised the first part of what he preached. He was a great enemy of openness and frankness, and a great practitioner of the arts of evasion and cover-up. It was the second part of the formula – the protection of the young – that gave him trouble.

In 1981, for example, Ryan sent a Father X as curate to Clogher Road church in the Dublin Corporation housing estate of Crumlin. He knew that this man was a dangerous and manipulative paedophile who was set on attacking children, as Ryan himself noted, “from six to 16”. He knew that X cultivated parents who involved themselves in school or parish activities so as to gain access to their children.

He knew that in one previous case, “Having got access to the home through this acquaintanceship, Father X abused a young son of six years of age.”

Yet not alone did Ryan send X to Crumlin to continue his assaults on children, but he colluded with the activities of his auxiliary bishop, James Kavanagh, in interfering in a criminal investigation into X’s behaviour, persuading one set of parents not to press charges against the priest.

As the commission concludes, Ryan took a “close personal interest” in the case of Fr X: “He protected Fr X to an extraordinary extent; he ensured, as far as he could, that very few people knew about his activities; it seems that the welfare of children simply did not play any part in his decisions.”

In attempting to come to terms with the institutionalised depravity of the Roman Catholic Church’s systematic collaboration with child abusers, it is useful to start by considering the contradiction between Ryan’s preaching about the “corruption of the young” and his role as a facilitator of sexual assaults on children.

Is there, indeed, a contradiction at all? Or are we not, rather, dealing with two sides of the same debased coin?

The arrogance and obscurantism of a church leadership that could rail against openness and frankness is in fact completely consistent with the same hierarchy’s consistent preference for secrecy over truth and for self-interest over the interests of children and families.

When all the numbing details of the report are absorbed, we have to reassemble the big picture of the institutional church’s relationship with Irish society. And we have to say that that relationship itself has been an abusive one. The church leadership behaved towards society with the same callousness, the same deviousness, the same exploitative mentality, and the same blindly egotistical pursuit of its own desires that an abuser shows towards his victim.

It is important to say that this is not a comment on the Catholic faith. “The Church,” as the report puts it, “is not only a religious organisation but also a human/civil instrument of control and power”. It is this second aspect – the instrument of control and power – that we have to understand.

We know that all institutions and subcultures have the capacity to create systems of denial and self-protection – think, for example, of the toleration of paedophiles within Irish swimming, or the support of artists and intellectuals for the child rapist Roman Polanski.

But in the case of the institutional Catholic Church we have an organisation with an unusually powerful mechanism of self-protection: the capacity to convince the society it is abusing to take part in the cover-up. The damage the church has done to Irish society lies in the ways it has involved that society in the maintenance of an abusive instrument of control and power.

It is easy to miss a central aspect of this whole scandal. The report is concerned with the actions of the church authorities and describes in damning detail their sense of being above the law of the land. (Cardinal Desmond Connell, for example, told the commission that “the greatest crisis in my position as Archbishop” was not, as might be imagined, his discovery of appalling criminality among his clergy, or even his own disingenuous public claims that “I have compensated nobody”, but the decision to allow gardaí access to diocesan files.) But it is striking that parents, teachers and wider communities seldom went to the police either.

This was not a matter of ignorance. It is clear that some of the paedophiles were not secretive and cunning, but reckless and flagrant. In the early 1970s, for example, Fr James McNamee, who had built a swimming pool in his house into which only young boys were allowed, was so notorious among the children in his Crumlin parish that “whenever the older boys in the area saw Fr McNamee, they either ran away or started throwing things and shouting insults at Fr McNamee. Apparently he was known as ‘Father smack my gee’.” If children were shouting abuse at a priest in 1970s Ireland, adults undoubtedly noticed. They must have known why.

Similarly, the appalling Patrick Maguire, who may have abused hundreds of children in Ireland, the UK and Japan, became, as the report notes, “astonishingly brazen”. He actually told the parents of a child he had just abused that the boy had a problem with his testicles. “Not surprisingly, the parents wondered how he had discovered that.”

Yet in most cases, parents who knew their children had been abused went to the bishop, not to the Garda. There may have been a mistrust of the Garda (sometimes well founded), or a fear of exposure in the courts. But, in Archbishop Ryan’s internal notes on the Father X case there is a more extraordinary explanation: “The parents involved have, for the most part, reacted with what can only be described as incredible charity. In several cases, they were quite apologetic about having to discuss the matter and were as much concerned for the priest’s welfare as for their child and other children.”

This was the church’s great achievement in Ireland. It had so successfully disabled a society’s capacity to think for itself about right and wrong that it was the parents of an abused child, not the bishop who enabled that abuse, who were “quite apologetic”.

It had managed to create a flock who, in the face of an outrageous violation of trust, would be more concerned about the abuser than about those he had abused and might abuse in the future. It had inserted its own “instrument of control and power” so deeply into the minds of the faithful that they could scarcely even feel angry about the perpetration of disgusting crimes on their own children.

This is, of course, precisely what paedophiles do to the children they abuse. They convince them that they are the guilty ones. The well-meaning local priest to whom Marie Collins – who has been a key figure in bringing this scandal to light – disclosed the fact that she had been abused as a child in Crumlin children’s hospital, told her “not to feel any guilt about what had happened”. He then, however, told her that “if she had guilt I could give her absolution”.

The suggestion that the victim should be absolved of sin speaks for itself. And it had its effect – Marie Collins did not disclose the abuse again for a number of years.

This ultimate triumph of making the victims guilty and their parents apologetic produced both an underlying contempt for the laity (especially in the working-class parishes where abusers were generally sent) and a sense of belonging to an untouchable elite.

The religious superior of the serial abuser Patrick Maguire captured both when he advised him not to pay too much attention to the views of the therapist he was attending: “You are a priest and you should not allow any person other than yourself to conclude that you ought not remain in ministry, albeit a limited one. I am distrustful of the capacity of any layman or woman to know what it means to be a priest.”

What it meant to be a priest was that, in the eyes of the church authorities, you were held to a different standard than the mere layman or woman. It was not just that you were not subject to the law, but that you were not really subject to Catholic teaching either.

All the episcopal fulminations about sexual sin were for the benefit of the ordinary punters. For the priests, there was a much more tolerant attitude. While bleating about the permissive society, the archbishops were often flippant about the sexual crimes of the clergy. Cardinal Connell, for example, told Marie Collins that the action of an abuser in taking pictures of the genitalia of young girls in the hospital “was not serious as it only involved the taking of photographs”.

All of this did immense harm to the victims and to the church itself. But it also harmed Ireland as a whole. The abusive relationship between church and society in which people were induced to collude in the maintenance of a corrupt and cynical system of power and control screwed up the Irish relationship with authority.

It deeply damaged the democratic and republican notion that power comes from the people, by creating a culture of shame, of weakness and of collusion. It taught us to live with, and believe that we loved, an arrogant and unaccountable kind of authority.

If we are ever to awaken once and for all from the nightmare described by the commission, we have to unlearn that lesson and create forms of collective authority that are open, accountable, lawful and genuinely democratic.
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Gaoth Dobhair Abu

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #515 on: November 29, 2009, 02:01:43 AM »
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!
Tbc....

stew

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #516 on: November 29, 2009, 05:20:42 AM »
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

money is the only thing that will make the cnuts realize how serious the issue is because they are still not taking it seriously.

Celebacy has fcuk all to do with these scumbags raping children, less than fcuk all and some of you on here are either deluded or stupid or both for thinking it is.
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muppet

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #517 on: November 29, 2009, 05:45:19 AM »
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

I want everyone that facilitated the pedophiles, or interfered in any way with the law by covering up complaints, to be in court. I also want the Dept. of Foreign Affairs to fire a diplomatic rocket into the Vatican.
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mylestheslasher

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #518 on: November 29, 2009, 09:50:51 AM »
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

Sorry for boring you with tales of abuse of children and cover ups from the vatican down. I know I should be over talking shite about Celtic or something more important. This has been out there most of the week and you have chosen to comment at 2-30am on Sunday morning after probably a skip of drink (haven't you made a bollix of yourself doing this before too). 2 lines dismissing the gravity of the thing. Maybe when you take your head out of your arse you might let us know about what this justice "everyone" wants is? Hardly anyone has mentioned compensation but only someone that thinks the corrupt catholic church is more important than the wrecked lives and lost innocence of children. People like you make me depressed about the future of this country such is the grip a bunch of clergy have on you. As I said before, you don't need the catholic church to follow the word of god or be a christian. I suggest you read the artcile posted above and ask yourself are you one of the people that the church controls.

Rois

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #519 on: November 29, 2009, 10:56:24 AM »
Sad thing is tens of thousands will go to mass today and listen to their mealy mouthed bullshit and throw money on the plate. God love their wit. 

Thanks for your condacension and patronage.

If you don't need to be a Catholic to be a Christian (which is very true), you can also be a Christian whilst being a Catholic.  And those Catholics who go to mass and listen to the interpretation of the bible, pray for their frends and relatives, try to become better Christians, what makes them need your pity? 
It reminds me in some way of one of the Beatitudes - Blessed are those who are persecuted in the pursuit of righteousness, theirs is the kingdom of heaven (probably not the right words but along those lines).  If a Catholic who abhorrs what happened in the past continues with their faith in and support for the belief that change will occur where it is needed, and is ridiculed for their good and honest intentions, then they can count themselves fortunate.

longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #520 on: November 29, 2009, 11:32:43 AM »
Jesus lads how many times can youse rehash this stuff!

What happened was disgraceful and everyone wants justice, but some on here are just using this as an excuse for their anti catholic/church tirades. Let the courts settle it. As for the compo, FFS have we all turned American!

We'll rehash it how many times we want- it is not Tierry's Henry's handball we're talking about here. These b**tards raped and beat the children of Ireland for years and if you are uncomfortable that people are feeling angry, tuff shit.
On a more consilitary note I hear that the church in my town is giving all this weekend's  colections to child aid charities...  ::) of course I'm kidding!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:34:51 AM by longrunsthefox »

pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #521 on: November 29, 2009, 11:35:13 AM »

Parishes told of abuse 'distress'
Church candles
A letter reflecting on the abuse report was read to congregations

A reading expressing distress at clerical child abuse in Dublin is being read at masses in Down and Connor, Northern Ireland's largest diocese.

It was prepared on behalf of Bishop Noel Treanor and his priests.

They said the heinous crimes against children described in the Murphy report were "appalling and distressing".

Meanwhile, Limerick Bishop Donal Murray has reiterated he did not fail to act on an abuse allegation he received while an auxiliary bishop of Dublin.

In a letter read on Saturday night at masses, Bishop Murray apologised to all children who had been abused and said he deeply regretted if "any action or omission of his had contributed to their suffering".


The prominent campaigner and victim of clerical abuse, Andrew Madden, has criticised Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen for not telling those criticised in the Murphy report to resign as patrons of state-funded schools.

The Report of the Commission of Investigation into the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin covered a period from 1975 to 2004.

It investigated how Church and state authorities handled allegations of child abuse against 46 priests made by 320 children. Eleven priests were convicted of sexual assaults on children.

Some offending priests were shifted from parish to parish, leaving them free to abuse again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8384936.stm



That's alright then  ::)
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longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #522 on: November 29, 2009, 11:37:13 AM »
Pints-stop rehashing this stuff   :o

pintsofguinness

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #523 on: November 29, 2009, 11:43:43 AM »
How could anyone sit in a chapel and listen to a letter from a **** like that who's as bad as those doing the abusing.
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longrunsthefox

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Re: Clerical abuse!
« Reply #524 on: November 29, 2009, 11:47:26 AM »
How could anyone sit in a chapel and listen to a letter from a **** like that who's as bad as those doing the abusing.

If a local youth club or GAA club was involved in raping children and the same people who covered it up were in charge, would it still get community suport? Wouldn't darken the door. As early posters said, GOD is everywhere and the church have no monopoly on it. The devil, or evil, sure has been in the church alrite.   
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 11:49:56 AM by longrunsthefox »