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Since Jim Gavin stepped down, there's talk of him being the greatest Gaelic football manager ever.

Do you agree? Or would you vote for someone else?

How do you weigh it?

He had playing resources at his disposal unlike any other manager except perhaps O'Dwyer in the 70s/80s. He took over a team that already had a virtual monopoly on Leinster and were a season removed from being reigning AI champions.

Is he a better manager than Micko was? What have Kildare or Laois won in the last 60 years outside of his management?

Was what he did more impressive than what Mickey Harte did in the last decade? Had Harte retired in 2008, where would he rank?

John "Tull" Dunne

Quote from: J70 on December 03, 2019, 06:15:42 PM
How do you weigh it?

He had playing resources at his disposal unlike any other manager except perhaps O'Dwyer in the 70s/80s. He took over a team that already had a virtual monopoly on Leinster and were a season removed from being reigning AI champions.

Is he a better manager than Micko was? What have Kildare or Laois won in the last 60 years outside of his management?

Was what he did more impressive than what Mickey Harte did in the last decade? Had Harte retired in 2008, where would he rank?

Yeah I'd agree with that.

I went for Sean Boylan. Took Meath from nowhere to win 2 AIs, should have won another 2. Built another young team, won 2 more. That early Meath in particular played some great stuff, even though they could dish it out too. But that edge got them over the line on many's an occasion.

Kevin McStay

Quote from: From the Bunker on December 03, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
John "Tull" Dunne

+1

I used to go to matches with him as a child.  A gentleman as well as a great manager.

Had Harte retired in 2008 he would have been in top 3 but has gradually undermined his own legacy as the years and years and years went on and on and on and on and on.

Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 03, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
Had Harte retired in 2008 he would have been in top 3 but has gradually undermined his own legacy as the years and years and years went on and on and on and on and on.

Getting average enough Tyrone teams to All Ireland semi finals and All Ireland final last year was achievements that shouldn't be underestimated.

Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 03, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 03, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
Had Harte retired in 2008 he would have been in top 3 but has gradually undermined his own legacy as the years and years and years went on and on and on and on and on.

Getting average enough Tyrone teams to All Ireland semi finals and All Ireland final last year was achievements that shouldn't be underestimated.

It's a pity he couldn't get one of these average enough teams to actually beat any team of note and I mean any team of note in the last 10 years you think a good manager would at least work one single win. Please don't give me that crap about getting average teams to semis Harte has proved himself to be an average manager of average teams. Not on the same pitch as most of the others on that list.

Harte these days strikes me as someone who overthinks football. His reaction to teams improving around him has been to become more and more methodical; to try to remove the element of chance where possible.

It's a direct contrast to his early sides that played a remarkably simple system - hunting in packs, counter attacking at speed, and moving the ball into space in front of full forwards. It wasn't that dissimilar to how Dublin have played in recent years, but Harte like many of his peers have convinced themselves that tactical overloading is what differentiates the Dubs (or perhaps that the only way to compete with the Dubs is through tactics overloading.

That said, his 2008 team was genuinely no great shakes. 3-4 top class players, 5-6 very good ones, and 3-4 who wouldn't have made the bench for most AI winning sides. And yet they managed to overthrow a Kerry side with a phenomenal forward line, by playing with their heads up and their hearts burning. That was Harte's great achievement as a manager.

Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 03, 2019, 09:26:21 PM

Quote from: Captain Obvious on December 03, 2019, 09:17:05 PM

Quote from: SkillfulBill on December 03, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
Had Harte retired in 2008 he would have been in top 3 but has gradually undermined his own legacy as the years and years and years went on and on and on and on and on.

Getting average enough Tyrone teams to All Ireland semi finals and All Ireland final last year was achievements that shouldn't be underestimated.

It's a pity he couldn't get one of these average enough teams to actually beat any team of note and I mean any team of note in the last 10 years you think a good manager would at least work one single win. Please don't give me that crap about getting average teams to semis Harte has proved himself to be an average manager of average teams. Not on the same pitch as most of the others on that list.

Tyrone would have reached no All Ireland semi finals and All Ireland final the last decade if their average group of players had average manager.

Donegal who some reckon are contenders for the All Ireland next year aren't some one of note? They beat the best Monaghan teams since the 80s a few times also.

Quote from: From the Bunker on December 03, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
John "Tull" Dunne

2 All-Ireland's as a player and 4 as a manager. Some going in fairness.

QuoteFOR 40 years, he was a singular and unforgettable presence, the tall man in the hat who was to Galway football both its sovereign leader and its valet. John "Tull" Dunne's contribution to Gaelic games took the shape of an epic role at the sporting and organisational heart of the association that simply will not be repeated, writes KEITH DUGGAN

Tull (he never knew the origin of the nickname other than it had been passed through the family from his grandfather's time) did it all – he won two All-Irelands with Galway as a player in 1934 and (as captain) 1938; he was trainer – and more – to the championship- winning team of 1956 and to the deathless side that won All-Irelands in 1964, '65 and '66; he was still on the sideline when Galway lost three All-Irelands in succession in the 1970s; he was a referee (he whistled Jack Lynch's football All-Ireland in 1945); and he was an administrator with an impeccably conscientious and fussy streak, taking as much care about recording the minutes of obscure county meetings as he did with the famous pinstripe band on the socks the invincible mid-60s maroon team wore.

He did all this throughout those decades while maintaining a sense of reserve, a distance between himself and the many fabulous footballers who passed through his charge as Galway established a reputation for expressive and free-thinking football.

Micko for me since he achieved success with more than one county

Who else on the list had (at least relative) success with another county? John O'M, Paidi & Pete McG?

Quote from: macdanger2 on December 03, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
Micko for me since he achieved success with more than one county

Who else on the list had (at least relative) success with another county? John O'M, Paidi & Pete McG?

For me its easy. Micko, more or less did what Gavin did, infact won more All Irelands with Kerry, but then took Kildare and then Laois to win Leinster titles , with Kildare getting to the All Ireland final

I think Micko on the fact he did it over 4 decades in different counties

I think Harte revolutionised the game and achieved his victories without the conveyor belt of talent that Micko and Jim Gavin had at their disposal. Micko and Gavin's genius was in keeping the huinger alive in their sides - achieved in different ways to reflect the different times they operated in. Micko winning Leinster's with Kildare and Laois was great too though could/should he have achieved more with those sides? Boylan, as mentioned, took Meath from being close to a laughing stock to the top of the tree. Any of those 4 could be regarded as the greatest I think, for different reasons.

The greatest manager ever was Dessie Ryan. He was the godfather to the Tyrone and Armagh teams. The intensity and tackling brought to the game was as a direct result of his coaching. Many of the players involved in those teams in the 00s won a Sigerson under him at Queen's.

Very few of those Tyrone teams came through Queens. More J'town. McAnallen and Jordan from 03 but that was about it?

Armagh had a lot mind and he was a great coach.

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on December 03, 2019, 11:09:29 PM

Quote from: From the Bunker on December 03, 2019, 06:21:35 PM
John "Tull" Dunne

2 All-Ireland's as a player and 4 as a manager. Some going in fairness.

QuoteFOR 40 years, he was a singular and unforgettable presence, the tall man in the hat who was to Galway football both its sovereign leader and its valet. John "Tull" Dunne's contribution to Gaelic games took the shape of an epic role at the sporting and organisational heart of the association that simply will not be repeated, writes KEITH DUGGAN

Tull (he never knew the origin of the nickname other than it had been passed through the family from his grandfather's time) did it all – he won two All-Irelands with Galway as a player in 1934 and (as captain) 1938; he was trainer – and more – to the championship- winning team of 1956 and to the deathless side that won All-Irelands in 1964, '65 and '66; he was still on the sideline when Galway lost three All-Irelands in succession in the 1970s; he was a referee (he whistled Jack Lynch's football All-Ireland in 1945); and he was an administrator with an impeccably conscientious and fussy streak, taking as much care about recording the minutes of obscure county meetings as he did with the famous pinstripe band on the socks the invincible mid-60s maroon team wore.

He did all this throughout those decades while maintaining a sense of reserve, a distance between himself and the many fabulous footballers who passed through his charge as Galway established a reputation for expressive and free-thinking football.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/one-man-s-decades-of-dedication-to-the-cause-1.702234

In the interests of balance, you should only count (meaningful) c'ship games that were played away from home or on neutral ground.
So it's between Dwyer or Boylan for me.

1. Eugene McGee
2. Seán Boylan
3. Micko

I voted for Seán only because Banty wasn't on the list.

I have see it on twitter but cant find it now.

Compared records of Gavin, Cody and O dywer over a 7 year period at the height of their dominance, Jim Gavin comes out on top.