Mother and Baby Home Report

[Main Street]

https://youtu.be/AWpsOqh8q0M

What counts is the public reaction now. Michael D and Joe Duffy  found the right tone. The money involved isn't going to make a huge difference compared to Covid spending.

What is the right tone?    what tone did Michael D hit?
Michael D did not comment on the serious shortcomings and downright lies recorded in the report.

[restorepride]

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There's a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn't end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.

Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.

Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Agree with all of that, but this couldn't have been facilitated without broader society and in particular the enthusiastic support of the pillars of the community (doctors, teachers and large farmers) who the system benefited.   

As they say, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The people who were strong enough to stand up to the church and stand out from the rest of society have to be admired.  The problem for many was the black and white thinking that was so common. If the right thing was considered the wrong thing by the church, then the good men and women who did the right thing, were considered renegades in the eyes of the unthinking populous. 

I remember a priest in our parish talking once about the challenge of greater levels of education versus faith.  The church really benefited from having many in their congregation that questioned nothing to the point of being soft with respect the church and its doctrine.  People talked about how good the nuns were to take in these "fallen women".

The point I am making here is that Irish society cannot absolve itself of these wrongs. The guilt of the church and state is not in question. But priests and nuns, good and bad, all came from Irish families.  Everyone attended mass, paid their dues and even the disgraceful funeral offerings.  From talking to older people, there was definitely an understanding among people, on a number of levels, that what was going on was wrong and those that sent their daughters to these places had to feel a serious sense of guilt.  There were alternatives and many unmarried mothers were supported by their families.

There was no broader society in narrow Catholic parish life - total control in many rural areas, in particular.  People were indoctrinated from conception to the grave, and beyond.   Including the priests.

[seafoid]

The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.

[whitey]

What some of the younger people don't realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s

[restorepride]

What some of the younger people don't realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s

100% correct.  "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[restorepride]

The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.

The Famine was a watershed - but for Catholicism.  Because of the humanitarian work of the Quakers for example, some communities were too appreciative (to the 'detriment' of the Catholic 'faith') so Archbishop Paul Cullen brought about a new 'devotional revolution' which spread like a 'frenzy' apparently.  Dingle and Tuam get particular mention for the dramatic nature of the sermons.  This drove a renewed devotion which led to the abuse of 'Catholic Church' power - against 'evil'.  This evil was personified in the mothers and babies of the homes, born out of wedlock, so the nuns, in their belief, were simply "ridding the land of evil" hence the cruelty.  The nuns, remember, were also indoctrinated - to think that they were doing the right thing, God's work. 

I don't think that 'unexpected children' were a threat to anyone except the righteousness and 'purity' of the Catholic Church.

Sin é!  I'm away to say a decade of the Rosary!

[restorepride]

24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post "Independence"

And it came to pass once more, this time in the wee undemocratic six where Ian Óg Paisley has started to beat the sectarian drum again.  Dangerous times ahead - especially if you are gay, as the DUP's Nelson McCausland has rediscovered a cure.

Think your starting post was accurate enough.

[Baile Brigín 2]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

[Lar Naparka]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

[From the Bunker]

"In 2018, an RTÉ radio documentary told the story of Peggy McCarthy, an unmarried pregnant woman with intellectual disabilities who was refused admission to hospitals in Listowel and Tralee (both in Kerry) in 1946, and died from eclampsia."

Peggy McCarthy did not have intellectual disabilities.


https://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-40212317.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9CIn%202018%2C%20an%20RT%C3%89%20radio,%2C%20and%20died%20from%20eclampsia.%E2%80%9D&text=Peggy%20McCarthy%20did%20not%20have%20intellectual%20disabilities.

[five points]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

The Commission Report concluded that the Mother and Baby Homes were not run on a commercial basis, and only broke even through contributions from the Church.

[johnnycool]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

The Commission Report concluded that the Mother and Baby Homes were not run on a commercial basis, and only broke even through contributions from the Church.

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

The lack of evidence/paperwork from these institutions is frightening to the extent you'd think there was a cover up.



There was a lady from the Armagh area on Radio Ulster the other night telling the story of how she got pregnant and told her Mum who in turn told her father who then threw the girl down the stairs in an attempt to try and abort the pregnancy...

She was shipped off to one of these Mother and Baby homes to learn how to be a caring mother on the outcome of a meeting with her mother, father, a social worker and the local PP. She got beat black and blue in the home by the nuns, ended up in Craigavon Area Hospital prematurely and gave birth to the baby. Her mother visited her and then decided that the baby wasn't to be adopted and they'd take the child home. Her father never spoke to her till his dying day..

This was 1986.

Not a lifetime ago.

[Baile Brigín 2]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

The Commission Report concluded that the Mother and Baby Homes were not run on a commercial basis, and only broke even through contributions from the Church.

And do you believe that?

[five points]

I'd seriously doubt that American couples coming over here to adopt a child didn't have to make a "donation" to whatever order of nuns to smooth over the paperwork for it to happen....

Again the Commission found no evidence of any such practice. It's still possible that particular individuals personally demanded and/or took bribes, but there is no evidence of payments to orders.

[five points]

A wet fart of a report

No evidence women were coerced into homes and a very convenient finding that no money was made off the 'adoption' ring.

In 1943 35 children died in a fire in a nun run orphanage in Cavan. The nuns were alleged to have stopped the rescue as the girls were in nighties. The investigation failed to look at why the nuns blocked the rescue.

Maybe we haven't moved on as far as we think.

That's a bloody lie for starters. The Magdalene Laundries were run on a commercial basis. The nuns undercut all opposition because they had an abundance of unpaid labour.

The Commission Report concluded that the Mother and Baby Homes were not run on a commercial basis, and only broke even through contributions from the Church.

And do you believe that?

It's not a matter of belief. The Report is clear.

https://assets.gov.ie/118591/719b80df-8280-41d1-b5db-29c269193536.pdf

Finances
35. The capitation payments for women and children in the mother and baby homes
were financed from the rates paid to the local authorities. In 1947, the health
services generally started to be partially financed from national taxation. It seems
to be at this stage that the mother and baby homes started to be required to
provide audited accounts to the Department of Health. These accounts were then
used to determine whether an increase in the capitation payments was merited.

36. The Commission has not seen any evidence that the religious orders who ran the
mother and baby homes made a profit from so doing. At various times, it is clear
that they struggled to make ends meet and their members were not always paid for
their work. This was a particular problem when occupancy levels fell and women
stayed for shorter periods. Payments by local authorities were not always on time.

37. The capitation rates, while they were not overly generous, and often failed to keep
pace with inflation, were considerably more generous that the social welfare
payments available to an adult and a child living in the community.
38. Under the institutional assistance regulations, the women in the homes (or, if they
were under 16, their parents) could have been charged for their stay in the homes
but this does not appear to have happened in most of the larger institutions.
Residents in county homes were charged if they had an income.