China Coronavirus

[theskull1]

At least Paul Frews on our side 

[armaghniac]

I question everything ITG. I support debate as should everyone who is confident in their argument, but instead what has happened is that Governments, health authorities, intelligence agencies, pharma, social media, MSM all in lock step, attenuated/silenced and continue to attenuate/silence alternate interpretations of the last few years as the try desperately to control the narrative.
My suspicions get perked whenever I see one side trying to shut down rather than encourage debate. This happened from the get go and has kept going. This has never been a fair fight

Lab leak
Lockdown policy
Driving fear
Lack of effort on alternative treatments which made the EUA sign off on money making new patented vaccines/drugs a matter of expediency
Masking works
Mandates to stay employed
Get vaccinated and you won't get sick,
Vaccines stop the spread
The unvaccinated are killing people
Children need to get vaccinated to protect granny
Natural immunity should be ignored, no focus about adverse reactions)

I trust nothing from any organisation involved in shutting down debate.

The only example of everyone colluding to present misinformation is Santa Claus and this only works on the under 8s.

As for debate, expressions of opinion unfounded in data or scientific methods should never be regarded as equal to information that has been scientifically validated.

[theskull1]

The only example of everyone colluding to present misinformation is Santa Claus and this only works on the under 8s.

Not true

As for debate, expressions of opinion unfounded in data or scientific methods should never be regarded as equal to information that has been scientifically validated.

Scientifically validated by The Science ... come on man. You don't understand how science works if you believe the above statement. Lets look at the positions taken by those with the power to control the narrative.

Lab leak ... Both Fauci and Peter Daszak had total control of 'the science' on this one even though they were tied to the gain of function work being done on coronavirus's in Wuhan. No difficult questions from the media or governments. strange
Lockdown policy ... Fauci and Collins ridiculed the Great Barrington Declaration which calling for a different approach (i,e to basically do what was agreed years previously in the event of a pandemic outbreak).. the media went with the science and social media did government and intelligence agencies bidding to attenuate or silence the voices of those pushing the GBD.
Driving fear .... every day on the news about covid deaths numbers. Strange that the same media have went out of their way to avoid discussing adverse reaction signals or making the same noise about excess deaths today?
Lack of effort on alternative treatments which made the EUA sign off on money making new patented vaccines/drugs a matter of expediency....... can anyone remember active efforts to find treatment protocols in the early weeks and months of covid. I can't. Lots of doctors tried to get their voices heard but were silenced. Doctors forbade to offer ivermectin etc. Just go home and wait for things to get really bad. Made the EUA sign off very straight forward. Nothing was worth a try in those early stages.
Vitamin D. Again ... Public health messaging was ...theres no evidence it will help, rather than lets give this a real go especially in those early days.
Masking works. There was zero evidence of being true and recent studies have rubbished, but "the science" said it worked.
Mandates to stay employed..... Natural immunity wasn't and still isn't good in many places. No one questioned 'the science'
Get vaccinated and you won't get sick... wasn't true but got pumped out public health officials, presidents, pharma, talk show hosts , social media messaging etc
Vaccines stop the spread ... wasn't true but got pumped out public health officials, presidents, pharma, talk show hosts , social media messaging 
The unvaccinated are killing people .... was just scaremongering but 'the science' was able to propagate this
Children need to get vaccinated to protect granny .... a healthy society should be protecting the health of our children first. 'The science' didn't think so regardless of the increased risk of adverse reactions to the younger population
Natural immunity should be ignored.... 'the science' told us this and everyone went with it
No focus about adverse reactions .... from Pharma, governments, media. You would think science would be interested in adverse reaction signals. Strange this doesnt get attention.. but hey lets go with the science.[/li][/list]

[imtommygunn]

At least Paul Frews on our side 

You wouldn't be known as a contrary person would you 

Some of your points I don't disagree with tbh however the lock step thing is for me a bit too far into tin foil hat territory. The co-ordination that would require is just not going to happen and for me there's pretty much a 0% chance of it.

The lockdown thing went too far and I think most people would agree. It was needed at a point and it absolutely was at the very beginning and nothing anyone says to me could convince me otherwise but it should have stopped earlier and sily rules shouldn't have been in e.g. graveyards etc to quote but one. The people losing their job over vaccines went too far too.

It's been a bit disappointing trying to read articles etc on the whole thing  from both sidestbh. I would like to follow both sides but some of it is just a bit too far for me - e.g. I don't think it;'s been mentioned here but the thing this week is that pfizer are supposed to be mutating covid now so to create a need for more vaccines. Sometimes the thing has just strayed into fantasy land and meaningful debate can not happen. There is so much misinformation that tbh I have given up on it.

[J70]

I question everything ITG. I support debate as should everyone who is confident in their argument, but instead what has happened is that Governments, health authorities, intelligence agencies, pharma, social media, MSM all in lock step, attenuated/silenced and continue to attenuate/silence alternate interpretations of the last few years as the try desperately to control the narrative.
My suspicions get perked whenever I see one side trying to shut down rather than encourage debate. This happened from the get go and has kept going. This has never been a fair fight

Lab leak
Lockdown policy
Driving fear
Lack of effort on alternative treatments which made the EUA sign off on money making new patented vaccines/drugs a matter of expediency
Masking works
Mandates to stay employed
Get vaccinated and you won't get sick,
Vaccines stop the spread
The unvaccinated are killing people
Children need to get vaccinated to protect granny
Natural immunity should be ignored, no focus about adverse reactions)

I trust nothing from any organisation involved in shutting down debate.

Lab leak – what about it? Is there any evidence out there that it originated in a lab as opposed to jumping species through wet markets?

Lockdown policy – Seriously, there was no debate? I remember state capitols under siege in the US and a governor subject to a kidnapping plot during the backlash. That's not to say that  there were no serious lessons to learn, but its easy in retrospect, isn't it? Its a lot different in the moment when everyone is scrambling while a novel virus which is killing people left and right is spreading like wildfire internationally and overwhelming health systems and hospitals.

Driving fear – right because there's no fear mongering from the anti-vax crowd.

Lack of effort on alternative treatments which made the EUA sign off on money making new patented vaccines/drugs a matter of expediency – what did you have in mind?

Masking works – this was based on DECADES of medical practice. Mask up to try to limit spreading your germs to others. You want your surgeon going opening up your insides while unmasked? Same principle. Once PPE supplies got under control, attention turned towards trying to get people to go with better masks such as N95s and whatever their equivalents are in  non-US countries, as these offer both respiratory protection AND source control. And it was just one element of trying to limit spread. No one said masking itself was a panacaea.

Mandates to stay employed – this was heavily debated. And rejected in many areas.

Get vaccinated and you won't get sick - on the contrary, what I remember was get vaccinated and you are far less likely to be hospitalized or killed by the virus.

Vaccines stop the spread – that was the idea initially. Unfortunately with the way the world and the virus is, many parts of the planet didn't have access to vaccines and new strains arose and spread. And significant minorities in areas where vaccines WERE available refused to get vaccinated anyway.

The unvaccinated are killing people – before Omicron, the unvaccinated were more likely to catch and spread the virus.

Children need to get vaccinated to protect granny – personally, I was fine with this and vaccinated my kids (again, before Omicron) to help protect the more vulnerable in our circle. The idea that this was not controversial or subject to debate is ludicrous, however.

Natural immunity should be ignored, no focus about adverse reactions – the issue in 2021 was that so many people did not have natural immunity as they hadn't yet caught covid. Vaccination was the best way to get people protected without running the gauntlet of infection. But yeah, in retrospect, I'd imagine more allowances should have been made for natural immunity. There was tonnes of news and debate about adverse reactions. Unfortunately for the "skeptics", when you hype up and present one-sided data just like you're accusing the authorities of doing and push poorly supported "cures", most people, who after all are NOT experts, are going to go with the professionals, just like they do in just about every aspect of their lives.

I trust nothing from any organisation involved in shutting down debate. Personally I don't trust much from organizations who time and again cherry pick evidence and ally themselves with those who trade in conspiracy theorizing across multiple fields.

[theskull1]

Just to pick a few ... as my dinners ready

Lab leak ... Peter Daszak, the man who's lab funded the work being done on corona virus research in Wuhan was the man personally tasked to go to Wuhan early in 2020 upon news of the outbreak and came back to tell Tony Fauci (who funded Peter Daszaks lab for researching these virus) and the world, it looks as if it came from a wet market. The world believed Fauci and Daszak ...

Come on guys ... that is plain weird

Lockdown policy ... read up on the Great Barrington Declaration https://gbdeclaration.org/
The authors of this was shadow banned on social media ... https://www.aier.org/article/twitter-files-confirm-censorship-of-the-great-barrington-declaration/

Lack of effort on alternative treatments which made the EUA sign off on money making new patented vaccines/drugs a matter of expediency – what did you have in mind? .. I thought we'd see a global collaborative effort of frontline doctors using their expertise to (through trial and error) come up with treatments which helped the critical or treat them before they got critically ill. Doctor who tried to encourage this were gas lit/ridiculed by governments and MSM.

Mandates to stay employed – this was heavily debated. And rejected in many areas. ... It was mostly a coercion tactic. Some countries worse than others. In the US my company told staff they had to get vaccinated or lose their jobs, even though everyone working from home .. oh the science of it all

Get vaccinated and you won't get sick - on the contrary, what I remember was get vaccinated and you are far less likely to be hospitalized or killed by the virus. ... June 2021 ... "It's as simple as black and white. You're vaccinated, you're safe. You're unvaccinated, you're at risk. Simple as that," says Dr. Anthony Fauci. https://youtu.be/OrjMLONm-Bw ... I thought he was the science 

My point being (and I don't expect to win over anyone), I don't think its unreasonable for those who see these sorts of controls on messaging and develop suspicions on the back of seeing them. There is too much vested interest/perverse incentives between all parties here for me to think instead of their own, they have my best interest at heart.

Big Pharma MASSIVELY funds Government health organisations meant to oversee their research
Revolving door between Government organisations and the Pharma companies
Labs running clinical trails get paid by the companies of the drugs they are testing
The Pharmaceutical industry in the United States spent 6.88 billion U.S. dollars on direct-to-consumer advertising in 2021. No incentive for any of these media companies to ask difficult questions.
Pharma has a history of releasing drugs when safety signals were ignored .. think vioxx and Valdecoxib

As I say, you mightn't see it my way, but I'm not telling any lies to steer anyones opinion one way or the other. I'm

[Milltown Row2]

Hopefully your dinner hasn't any pesticides or steroids in it

[theskull1]

As long as the cow wasn't vaccinated for Covid I'm good 

[LeoMc]

By not getting anymore booster shots people are subconsciously admitting they were duped but are fearful of the truth. Cognitive dissonance at its very best. Saving granny has been disproved along time ago.

Nope. I once did a parachute jump. I wore a parachute to cushion the fall. I don't wear a parachute now, not because I was duped by the pilot, but because I don't need one.

[imtommygunn]

It's not about telling lies though skull. You take information and you draw a conclusion. That doesn't make it the truth or accurate- it makes it an interpretation. Granted you could apply that to either "side"

You give one hundred people the same info and how many will draw the same conclusion?

Anyway I am not buying what you're selling and you're not buying what others are selling either but that's everyone's right.

[J70]

It could take many years for the origin of the virus to be established. Just like HIV. Or some of the haemorragic viruses. That will done by scientists, not conspiracy theorists or right wing politicians with an agenda.

The origins have been the subject of much discussion in the scientific world. The idea that it's all being swept under the carpet is nonsense. The maligned Dr Daszak was warning the world about coronaviruses for years, but now he's just a corrupt punch bag for the right, same as Fauci.

The conspiracy theorists can't lose with this one. Lab leak is confirmed - they can go with the malicious release angle. Direct animal origin found - cover up by evil scientists and the Chinese.

[Gmac]

It could take many years for the origin of the virus to be established. Just like HIV. Or some of the haemorragic viruses. That will done by scientists, not conspiracy theorists or right wing politicians with an agenda.

The origins have been the subject of much discussion in the scientific world. The idea that it's all being swept under the carpet is nonsense. The maligned Dr Daszak was warning the world about coronaviruses for years, but now he's just a corrupt punch bag for the right, same as Fauci.

The conspiracy theorists can't lose with this one. Lab leak is confirmed - they can go with the malicious release angle. Direct animal origin found - cover up by evil scientists and the Chinese.

Pfizer either lied or didn't know about transmission, they claimed 95% proof against getting the virus once you were vaccinated, efficacy seems like a lie too but it's all a right wing conspiracy theory. A nice company like Pfizer would never lie about a first time product and make hundreds of billions off it but only release it with full immunity , no you would be silly to even think about that stuff.

[J70]

It could take many years for the origin of the virus to be established. Just like HIV. Or some of the haemorragic viruses. That will done by scientists, not conspiracy theorists or right wing politicians with an agenda.

The origins have been the subject of much discussion in the scientific world. The idea that it's all being swept under the carpet is nonsense. The maligned Dr Daszak was warning the world about coronaviruses for years, but now he's just a corrupt punch bag for the right, same as Fauci.

The conspiracy theorists can't lose with this one. Lab leak is confirmed - they can go with the malicious release angle. Direct animal origin found - cover up by evil scientists and the Chinese.

Pfizer either lied or didn't know about transmission, they claimed 95% proof against getting the virus once you were vaccinated, efficacy seems like a lie too but it's all a right wing conspiracy theory. A nice company like Pfizer would never lie about a first time product and make hundreds of billions off it but only release it with full immunity , no you would be silly to even think about that stuff.

What does Pfizer have to do with the origin of the virus?

Was that them too?

Do you have data to contradict their claims, as stated by you, on the initial vaccines and the viral strains at the time?

Don't you right wingers love big corporations? Or is it just certain fields like oil?

[armaghniac]

Get vaccinated and you won't get sick - on the contrary, what I remember was get vaccinated and you are far less likely to be hospitalized or killed by the virus. ... June 2021 ... "It's as simple as black and white. You're vaccinated, you're safe. You're unvaccinated, you're at risk. Simple as that," says Dr. Anthony Fauci. https://youtu.be/OrjMLONm-Bw ... I thought he was the science 

This is a bit like the seat belt ads which imply that they will save you in a road accident. Of course, some people are still killed in road accidents, but seat belts do reduce injuries.
The science never implied that a vaccine eliminated risk, the trials did not show that. They greatly reduced risk.

[grounded]

The thing I find most difficult to understand was the huge drive in Ireland and the uk to have children under 12 vaccinated. Even though by that stage the health authorities and vaccine developers had access to the data regarding transmission rates, prior covid-19 infections and natural immunity and morbidity in that grouping.