Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 295520 times)

general_lee

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3675 on: September 21, 2022, 09:34:54 AM »
A lot of unionists seem to  go  ďall outĒ to prove   their loyalty,  attachment etc to Britain at every available opportunity.  A royal visit/event ,  the 12th, team GB Olympic team etc . Anything that has a  crown or Union Jack attached , they go Over the top

Itís like they  have to prove to  Britain, to northern nationalists, and mostly , themselves ..that  they are so British, so loyal to Britain , the crown and  anything remotely   British.

I remember one time the then Prince Charles visited the north. Loyalists were out in the street trying to wave at the car going past, all wrapped up in union jacks and union jack clothing, jumping, smiling and cheering in the street when he went past like it was the greatest day of their lives.

F*****g weird.

I know itís weird that a group of people will wave flags and cheer on a prince/monarch and another group who donít.

Be much better if everyone in the world would catch themselves on.
Itís weird when people, especially working class people, many of whom havenít a pot to piss in, wave flags and cheer on unelected head of state millionaires. Itís even weirder when they claim to be socialists! It actually would be much better if everyone living in monarchies caught themselves on!

Snapchap

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3676 on: September 21, 2022, 09:48:23 AM »
A lot of unionists seem to  go  ďall outĒ to prove   their loyalty,  attachment etc to Britain at every available opportunity.  A royal visit/event ,  the 12th, team GB Olympic team etc . Anything that has a  crown or Union Jack attached , they go Over the top

Itís like they  have to prove to  Britain, to northern nationalists, and mostly , themselves ..that  they are so British, so loyal to Britain , the crown and  anything remotely   British.
The same argument could be made in reverse.  10,000 pished up folk singing Ooh Aah Up the Ra in Falls Park springs to mind.

Do you not accept that Unionists in Northern Ireland have a British identity?  Republicans telling them that are not not is not going to really win hearts and minds in any debate around a UI.

A sing song is not the same as the identity insecurity we see from unionism. As others have pointed out, anywhere that's even close to majority unionist, is automatically bedecked in red, white and blue paint and flegs all year round. The same insecurity and clinging to symbols of culture isn't the case in Nationalist areas. And that's in a state that has historically tried to erase overt symbols of Irishness. To quote Conor Murphy: "The DUP say that even giving Irish speakers basic rights would lead to cultural domination. I reflect on that sometimes as I drive up to Stormont, over Queen Elizabeth Bridge, along the Prince of Wales Avenue, past the statue of Carson, into a the building with Britannia written on the roof, many days under two union flags, park next to where Craig is buried and then I see Craigavon's statue at the top of the stairs. I think to myself: we really must do more to reflect Unionist culture in this place."
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 09:50:51 AM by Snapchap »

armaghniac

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3677 on: September 21, 2022, 10:06:50 AM »

The same argument could be made in reverse.  10,000 pished up folk singing Ooh Aah Up the Ra in Falls Park springs to mind.

Do you not accept that Unionists in Northern Ireland have a British identity?  Republicans telling them that are not not is not going to really win hearts and minds in any debate around a UI.
.

People at concerts sing at sorts of stuff "way oh" and the like.Excessive analysis of such things is pointless.

As fir unionists having a British identity, nobody objects to that.what people object to is them declaring the place to be British and getting the British Army to intimidate everyone else much as some people who identify as Russian are doing in Ukraine at present.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3678 on: September 21, 2022, 10:13:10 AM »
Not to mention trying to intimidate people who identify as  Irish into observing a British Bank Holiday for the British Monarch's funeral.
I'm sure those British people who live in loads of Independent Countries around the World can still be British without having the Country they live in ruled by Westminster.
Remember we're a noble race from a land where Kings once trod.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3679 on: September 21, 2022, 10:26:45 AM »
A lot of unionists seem to  go  ďall outĒ to prove   their loyalty,  attachment etc to Britain at every available opportunity.  A royal visit/event ,  the 12th, team GB Olympic team etc . Anything that has a  crown or Union Jack attached , they go Over the top

Itís like they  have to prove to  Britain, to northern nationalists, and mostly , themselves ..that  they are so British, so loyal to Britain , the crown and  anything remotely   British.

I remember one time the then Prince Charles visited the north. Loyalists were out in the street trying to wave at the car going past, all wrapped up in union jacks and union jack clothing, jumping, smiling and cheering in the street when he went past like it was the greatest day of their lives.

F*****g weird.

I know itís weird that a group of people will wave flags and cheer on a prince/monarch and another group who donít.

Be much better if everyone in the world would catch themselves on.
Itís weird when people, especially working class people, many of whom havenít a pot to piss in, wave flags and cheer on unelected head of state millionaires. Itís even weirder when they claim to be socialists! It actually would be much better if everyone living in monarchies caught themselves on!

Why does waving flegs at people annoy you? If you go to any football game you've headers waving flags at millionaire footballers and going crazy during the game when they put the ball in the net! Mad I know, and these are people from mainly working class areas without a pot to piss in but head over in bus loads to a different country and spend whatever money they can in a foreign land  :)

I think there are more important things to worry about than people waving flegs at kings/queens there are another 42 countries that do it

Here's the problem though being from one grouping and not understanding the other grouping (regardless of what you think) it's wrong, and if we continue to do this then you'll never see a UI in your life time or even your kids lifetime. Those are the hard facts
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

general_lee

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3680 on: September 21, 2022, 10:57:19 AM »
A lot of unionists seem to  go  ďall outĒ to prove   their loyalty,  attachment etc to Britain at every available opportunity.  A royal visit/event ,  the 12th, team GB Olympic team etc . Anything that has a  crown or Union Jack attached , they go Over the top

Itís like they  have to prove to  Britain, to northern nationalists, and mostly , themselves ..that  they are so British, so loyal to Britain , the crown and  anything remotely   British.

I remember one time the then Prince Charles visited the north. Loyalists were out in the street trying to wave at the car going past, all wrapped up in union jacks and union jack clothing, jumping, smiling and cheering in the street when he went past like it was the greatest day of their lives.

F*****g weird.

I know itís weird that a group of people will wave flags and cheer on a prince/monarch and another group who donít.

Be much better if everyone in the world would catch themselves on.
Itís weird when people, especially working class people, many of whom havenít a pot to piss in, wave flags and cheer on unelected head of state millionaires. Itís even weirder when they claim to be socialists! It actually would be much better if everyone living in monarchies caught themselves on!

Why does waving flegs at people annoy you? If you go to any football game you've headers waving flags at millionaire footballers and going crazy during the game when they put the ball in the net! Mad I know, and these are people from mainly working class areas without a pot to piss in but head over in bus loads to a different country and spend whatever money they can in a foreign land  :)

I think there are more important things to worry about than people waving flegs at kings/queens there are another 42 countries that do it

Here's the problem though being from one grouping and not understanding the other grouping (regardless of what you think) it's wrong, and if we continue to do this then you'll never see a UI in your life time or even your kids lifetime. Those are the hard facts
People waving flags doesnít annoy me, unelected multimillionaires as heads of state annoy me. You might enjoy living in a monarchy, thatís on you. if youíre happy enough funding their sex crime cases, their property portfolios, their multimillion renovations etc. more power to you. Personally I prefer democracy, it doesnít come down to being from one grouping and understanding another grouping - there are plenty of British republicans in England Scotland and Wales. So long as I pay taxes to the UK treasury I will oppose the monarchy and support abolishment.

pbat

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3681 on: September 21, 2022, 11:06:05 AM »
Got tickets to the Ireland's Future event on 1st October in 3 arena, impressive line up. Interesting to see what comes out of it.

Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3682 on: September 21, 2022, 11:25:28 AM »
If you can pull up where I said I enjoy it or happy enough funding it then go ahead. Knock yourself out.. Making stuff up that I said doesn't make your post any better..

If you care to look then you'll see I've said I'm not a royalist, can I understand people who are? Yes they feel they want that head of state to be a monarch and are happy enough to pay for that, if there was an opt in or out for their contributions you will defo getting plenty of 'Royalist' opting out on the fly ;) so that they can save their money and spend it on other millionaires playing football

You prefer democracy, that's great, last time I heard this place was a democracy with voted in politicians (as useless as they are at present) but there is a big cohort that love that monarch thing and are willing to wave flegs at it, that's ok, it has no authority in policy making, just accept that in the UK there won't be an abolishment of that, certainly not in your tax paying or children's tax paying days
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Franko

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3683 on: September 21, 2022, 12:00:37 PM »
That entire post reminds me of James Molyneaux proclaiming that "a prolonged IRA ceasefire could be the most destabilising thing to happen to unionism since partition".
Would that be the same James Molyneux who ceased to be politicalyl relevant sometime before the end of the last century?

Your post absolutely screams of your discomfort at the positive reaction SF have been getting from the 'middle of the roaders' over the last week. SF won't have lost any support from it's base over the course of the last few days - they've been greeting royal visitors here for a decade after all (and I remember the jibes from opponents predicting that it meant SF were about to take their seats in Westminster back then too ::)).
What you infer and what I imply, never mind state, are two very different things.

For I am not at all "discomforted" by the sight of SF having to move away from everything that they used to hold dear, if anything I am somewhat amused by it. (Nor btw did I predict eg that they will take their seats at Westminster, rather I suggested that they might as well.)

So while they won't have lot support, they will however have gained a degree of support from the middle of the road. The same people you no doubt know are key to a border poll.

And then to cap the post off with the claim that Irish Republicanism is dying, at a time when SF's is now the largest party north and south, and still growing?? You're some ostrich.
They won't have lost support. Indeed they most likely have gained support.

But the point is that such shifts are entirely within the Nationalist spectrum, meaning that if eg I were an SDLP supporter, I could well be discomforted etc, but as a Unionist, I am not moved, either literally or figuratively..

Ditto the emergence of SF as a force in ROI. For if anything, that trend only makes a UI vote in a referendum LESS likely not more, on the basis that while  some moderate Unionists might be persuadable that in principle at least, a UI could be good for them, Hell will freezr over before we will trust our fate to a UI where SF has the whip hand.

As for you "midlle of the road" manoeuvering, where you're going wrong is in imagining that there is only one road in NI, with one middle. Whereas the reality is that there are two roads, a Nationalist one and a Unionist one. And while SF may have made gains in the middle lane of theirs, unless or until Nationalism can persuade a sizeable proportion of Unionists that we should all be "On the One Road", then they have no hope of gaining a majority in any referendum.

Which is why I am not at all disacomforted by the events of the last few days, since as well as movement by and within Nationalism etc, this Ostrich has also observed the other lesson to be drawn, namely that support for the Union within Unionism, whether party political or cultural, is as strong as ever.

And unless or until that latter changes, there simply won't be a UI.

Which I am entirely comfortable with.

This is typical of the 1960's thinking on display from political unionism at the minute.

In reality, there are many 'roads' in NI

But there are not 2, but 3 core groupings - the Unionist, the Nationalist and the Other

It's the 'others' that political unionism continues to alienate and whilst you seem to like to think of yourself as superior to those politicians, this little paragraph clearly displays that your thinking is right down there in the mire with them.

It's the others who will decide this debate eventually and whilst nationalism (civic and political) is making efforts to understand and cater for their motivations, Unionism, as evidenced above, either forgets or denies that they exist.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2022, 07:48:21 PM by Franko »

bennydorano

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3684 on: September 21, 2022, 12:58:58 PM »
EG assumes that Unionism will always accept continuing right wing idiotic politics. The penny may actually drop at some stage that political Unionism doesn't have their best interests at heart.

imtommygunn

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3685 on: September 21, 2022, 01:31:20 PM »
Is that true of all unionism though? The DUP are blatantly very self serving and tbh do very little for their voters. Would we say every unionist party is the same?

general_lee

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3686 on: September 21, 2022, 01:36:22 PM »
If you can pull up where I said I enjoy it or happy enough funding it then go ahead. Knock yourself out.. Making stuff up that I said doesn't make your post any better..
I said you might enjoy it, no need to thank me for clarifying.

If you care to look then you'll see I've said I'm not a royalist, can I understand people who are? Yes they feel they want that head of state to be a monarch and are happy enough to pay for that, if there was an opt in or out for their contributions you will defo getting plenty of 'Royalist' opting out on the fly ;) so that they can save their money and spend it on other millionaires playing football
Fair play to you for understanding the royalist psyche, like I said I canít get my head round it - particularly people from working class backgrounds swooning over incredibly wealthy people that hate themÖ now adulation for millionaire footballers I find easy to understand, especially when many of the players themselves are from working class backgrounds; and unlike the Windsors footballers have actually earned their money, however overpaid they might be.

You prefer democracy, that's great, last time I heard this place was a democracy with voted in politicians (as useless as they are at present) but there is a big cohort that love that monarch thing and are willing to wave flegs at it, that's ok, it has no authority in policy making, just accept that in the UK there won't be an abolishment of that, certainly not in your tax paying or children's tax paying days
The UK is not a true democracy, a monarchy is the antithesis of democracy. You say the crown has no authority in policy making, you might want to read a little further into exactly what the English royal family are able to do in terms of interfering; and what they have done in the past when it comes to lobbying and vetting laws before they are passed.


johnnycool

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3687 on: September 21, 2022, 02:01:33 PM »
Is that true of all unionism though? The DUP are blatantly very self serving and tbh do very little for their voters. Would we say every unionist party is the same?

Doug tentatively dips his toes into the moderate ground before taking fear and pulling back out due to whatever fears of being labelled a Lundy if you don't toe the LCC/Jim Allister/Bin Bryson line.

Needs to grow a set and show that unionism is secure in their heritage and all those who share this place to promote the Irish language and culture accordingly


Milltown Row2

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #3688 on: September 21, 2022, 02:03:27 PM »
If you can pull up where I said I enjoy it or happy enough funding it then go ahead. Knock yourself out.. Making stuff up that I said doesn't make your post any better..
I said you might enjoy it, no need to thank me for clarifying.

If you care to look then you'll see I've said I'm not a royalist, can I understand people who are? Yes they feel they want that head of state to be a monarch and are happy enough to pay for that, if there was an opt in or out for their contributions you will defo getting plenty of 'Royalist' opting out on the fly ;) so that they can save their money and spend it on other millionaires playing football
Fair play to you for understanding the royalist psyche, like I said I canít get my head round it - particularly people from working class backgrounds swooning over incredibly wealthy people that hate themÖ now adulation for millionaire footballers I find easy to understand, especially when many of the players themselves are from working class backgrounds; and unlike the Windsors footballers have actually earned their money, however overpaid they might be.

You prefer democracy, that's great, last time I heard this place was a democracy with voted in politicians (as useless as they are at present) but there is a big cohort that love that monarch thing and are willing to wave flegs at it, that's ok, it has no authority in policy making, just accept that in the UK there won't be an abolishment of that, certainly not in your tax paying or children's tax paying days
The UK is not a true democracy, a monarchy is the antithesis of democracy. You say the crown has no authority in policy making, you might want to read a little further into exactly what the English royal family are able to do in terms of interfering; and what they have done in the past when it comes to lobbying and vetting laws before they are passed.



You seem to know a lot about the Royals, good man yourself.. Footballers earn their money  :D :D
None of us are getting out of here alive, so please stop treating yourself like an after thought. Ea

Applesisapples

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Re: Re: Queen Elizabeth II 1926 - 2022
« Reply #3689 on: September 28, 2022, 02:00:27 PM »
A lot of unionists seem to  go  ďall outĒ to prove   their loyalty,  attachment etc to Britain at every available opportunity.  A royal visit/event ,  the 12th, team GB Olympic team etc . Anything that has a  crown or Union Jack attached , they go Over the top

Itís like they  have to prove to  Britain, to northern nationalists, and mostly , themselves ..that  they are so British, so loyal to Britain , the crown and  anything remotely   British.
The same argument could be made in reverse.  10,000 pished up folk singing Ooh Aah Up the Ra in Falls Park springs to mind.

Do you not accept that Unionists in Northern Ireland have a British identity?  Republicans telling them that are not not is not going to really win hearts and minds in any debate around a UI.
That is generally accepted by all nationalists. The big elephant in the room is the inability of unionism to accept the nationalist identity, culture, language and sport as legitimate. The Ra ceased to exist 20 years ago, the UVF and UDA are still running community's with the tacit acceptance of political unionism. This state does not reflect the identity of nearly half it's population and every attempt to make it more reflective is seen as a loss of Britishness and that is the rock on which the union will perish, aided and abetted by a UK government that is a shit show and becoming more English focused.