ukraine regime change

[sid waddell]

It is that simple. Russia have already taken part of Ukraine and now want the whole country. Ukraine quite rightly aren't happy about this.

NATO are trying to convince Putin not to invade. It's not rocket science

It's actually not that simple. Say the Irish government amassed a force on the border to retake the 6 counties of Ulster. Would that make it a "simple" scenario? Say the Spanish were threatening a takeover of Gibraltar, is that a straight-forward "Evil Spanish steal sovereign territory" situation? That's how this is being presented.

I find it depressing how people can be so easily led into believing Russia is the sole aggressor here. Intelligence being delivered by MI6 and the CIA to the large Western media outlets and your everyday Irishman is lapping it up. Has the Iraqi war or Afghan war been wiped from your memories?

What is today Belorussia and Ukraine has a very strong historical, cultural and linguistic link to the early Russian state. The very first Russia capital was based in Kiev and that state, from 800 AD, largely existed in a narrow strip from the eastern Baltic stated down to the mouth of the Danube. The territory followed both sides of the Dnieper River which courses down the very centre of the current Ukrainian state. Unlike Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Armenia or Georgia an independent Ukrainian state has never existed prior to 30 years ago. The territory, language and culture were largely contiguous with Russia. Russian is the first language in most eastern Ukrainian cities including it's 2nd largest city (*acc. to CH4 news). Ukraine has produced a great quantity of Russia's best writers, actors, dancers, soldiers and sportspeople who almost exclusively considered themselves Russian nationals from the Ukraine. Ukraine was predominantly viewed as a geographical distinction in a large Russian state.

Pro-independence sentiment only arose in 1991 following the pro-soviet coup in Russia. Ukrainian leaders had agreed to a continued union with Russia in a post-communist era only a few months earlier. Had it not been for that coup attempt, it is highly Ukraine would today exist as part of a united Russian federation. As it transpired the fear of a return of the hard-line soviets drove them to the nuclear option of declaring independence and so we have the situation in which we currently find ourselves. The 20-year economic stagnation of Russia and it's satellites has meant that increasingly the Ukrainians look to Western Europe and it's political embodiment, the EU, with admiration and desire for closer links in order to better their own country. That's understandable.

What is also understandable is that the Russian people, a proud people who hail from a country that has been either the 1st or 2nd world superpower for most of the period since the close of the Napoleonic War in 1815, should view Western Europe with a sizeable amount of distrust. Since the Crimean War in 1853 western European countries have tried to undermine successive Russian regimes. For the last 100 years 1 Western power or another has been trying to undermine Russian governments with the exception of 1991-2010, (when we eventually succeeded). And the cost of these wars to Russia have been immense. They lost 3.3 million dead in WW1, a total no other nation came close too. They lost 20 - 27 million people in WW2. To average Russians the defection of Ukraine to the West has nothing to do with democracy or economics. How could things they don't understand trump the 1300 years of shared experience that binds Russia and Ukraine? The only explanation is that once again the West is acting to undermine Russia with subversion of the Ukrainian people. That's not that hard to believe. Irish people are imbued with an enmity and distrust towards Britain for crimes much more distant than those inflicted upon Russia.

Obviously I don't agree with the current Russian belligerence and they cannot force the Ukrainian state into a reunion the people do not want (this is not the Russian intention either by the way). And I'm aware Putin is a deplorable man and ruthless totalitarian leader who doesn't believe in the principles of democracy. However I deplore the current hawkish rhetoric to be found in the US, UK, Irish and European media and general discussion. To the forefront of course are UK, US intelligence agencies who's intentions and motives are deliberately hidden from us all and have seldom been known to serve the greater good. Secondly is the old guard military types; lords, generals, congressmen and MPs and their ilk, who are desperate for a good scrap every 10-15 years to inflate their own self-importance and standing in society. Would anyone give a f**k if you were a marine for 30 years if there wasn't regular wars? I think not. Thirdly the caste of populist politicians in every country who know that the fighting is going to be done somewhere far away and none of their casualties could vote for them. So it's a easy vote-winner in a hawkish environment to stand on the soapbox telling us all to go to war. Let's see the same people stand up and take credit for it when it turns into a Syria or an Iraq or an Afghanistan. Lastly there's a press who know wars and rampant nationalism stir base emotions in people and create an increase in revenue through the extra clicks on their stories.

I could go on all night as to why the current environment and approach by Western countries to Russia is wrong (and why Germany appear to me to be the most rational) but it's getting late.

Ill just say anyone who thinks this is a simple issue is "f**king stupid" as you so eloquently put it.

Putinist propaganda 101, you even got the bit in about supposedly not liking Putin to try and make yourself look even handed. All serious pro-Russia propagandists do that.

Now let's rewrite a bit of your diatribe of imperialist hate speech and slot Ireland and Britain in in place of Ukraine and Russia, and see how it sounds.

What is today Ireland has always a very strong historical, cultural and linguistic link to Britain. The patron saint of Ireland, St. Patrick, was British and from 1165 on Ireland was always British. The two islands form a natural archipelago in north west Europe. Unlike other western European countries like France, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands and Belgium, an independent Irish state never existed prior to 70 years ago. The territory, language and culture were largely contiguous with the United Kingdom. English is the first language in all of Ireland bar very tiny pockets on the west coast. Ireland has produced a great quantity of Britain's best writers, actors, television personalities soldiers and sportspeople who almost exclusively considered themselves British nationals from the United Kingdom. Ireland was predominantly viewed as a geographical distinction in a large United Kingdom and wider British empire

Pro-independence sentiment only arose in 1916 following the executions of the leaders of the Easter Rising. Irish leaders always agreed to a continued union with  Britain until 1949. Had it not been for that coup attempt in 1916, it is highly likely Ireland would today exist as part of the United Kingdom.. As it transpired the fear of conscription drove them to the nuclear option of declaring independence and so we have the situation in which we currently find ourselves. The economic stagnation of Britain has meant that increasingly the Irish look to Western Europe and it's political embodiment, the EU, with admiration and desire for closer links in order to better their own country. That's understandable.

What is also understandable is that the British people, a proud people who hail from a country that has been either the 1st or 2nd world superpower for most of the period since the close of the Napoleonic War in 1815, should view the rest of Western Europe with a sizeable amount of distrust. Since the American revolution of 1776 countries in Europe and around the world have tried to undermine successive British regimes. For the last 108 years 1 Western power or another has been trying to undermine British governments. And the cost of these wars to Britain have been immense. They lost millions dead in both World Wars and thousands dead in Ireland. To average Brits the defection of Ireland has nothing to do with democracy or economics. How could things they don't understand trump the 900 years of shared experience that binds Britain and Ireland? The only explanation is that once again the West is acting to undermine Britain with the subversion of the Irish people. That's not that hard to believe. Ukrainian people are imbued with an enmity and distrust towards Russia for crimes much more serious than those ever inflicted upon Ireland.

[sid waddell]

Pro-independence sentiment only arose in 1991 following the pro-soviet coup in Russia.

This is also complete bullshit.

Do tell me what years these happened in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_War_of_Independence

[sid waddell]

This is the sort of warmongering propaganda that is broadcast constantly in Russia. Use the subtitles button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyhnAOAmYGY&t=3s&ab_channel=Ohhai

[seafoid]

Kiev has an emotional attachment for Russians as Kosovan does for Serbs
The initial political unit which over time metamorphosised into Russia was Kievan Rus.

[sid waddell]

Kiev has an emotional attachment for Russians as Kosovan does for Serbs
The initial political unit which over time metamorphosised into Russia was Kievan Rus.

Spain has an "emotional attachment" for ISIS, given that it was part of the Islamic caliphate.

And that "emotional attachment" is about as reasoned, logical and helpful as the Russians' "emotional attachment" to Ukraine or the Serbs' "emotional attachment" to Kosovo.

[seafoid]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60353677

[seafoid]

Kiev has an emotional attachment for Russians as Kosovan does for Serbs
The initial political unit which over time metamorphosised into Russia was Kievan Rus.

Spain has an "emotional attachment" for ISIS, given that it was part of the Islamic caliphate.

And that "emotional attachment" is about as reasoned, logical and helpful as the Russians' "emotional attachment" to Ukraine or the Serbs' "emotional attachment" to Kosovo.

It's a fact. So is the concept of Russia's " near abroad"
Ukraine has something that Sweden does not have.

Another important angle is WW2 trauma

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are

[sid waddell]

Kiev has an emotional attachment for Russians as Kosovan does for Serbs
The initial political unit which over time metamorphosised into Russia was Kievan Rus.

Spain has an "emotional attachment" for ISIS, given that it was part of the Islamic caliphate.

And that "emotional attachment" is about as reasoned, logical and helpful as the Russians' "emotional attachment" to Ukraine or the Serbs' "emotional attachment" to Kosovo.

It's a fact. So is the concept of Russia's " near abroad"
Ukraine has something that Sweden does not have.

Another important angle is WW2 trauma

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are

Russia is a nation drunk on exquisite, eternal self pity.

The problem for us in the west is that it is us who will experience the self-pity and internal humiliation for generations if Russia is not stood up to and faced down, because Russia wants to destroy not just Ukraine and the other countries is is trying to destroy, but freedom and democracy in the west. And if let, it will.

[Mikhail Prokhorov]

the world should be eternally indebted to Russia for WWII,

even the english and yanks acknowledged that,

we saved their ass 

[trileacman]

This is the sort of warmongering propaganda that is broadcast constantly in Russia. Use the subtitles button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyhnAOAmYGY&t=3s&ab_channel=Ohhai

Who's that guy being interviewed?

[Baile an tuaigh]

the world should be eternally indebted to Russia for WWII,

even the english and yanks acknowledged that,

we saved their ass 

Only the victorious write the history books. World War One and World War Two were manufactured in a Manhattan board room. From cradle to grave, we are indoctrinated with lies and propaganda. When you truly understand it, you will realize these wars were actually a war on Christianity. We owe Germany a huge apology.

[Rossfan]

 

[Tony Baloney]

the world should be eternally indebted to Russia for WWII,

even the english and yanks acknowledged that,

we saved their ass 

Only the victorious write the history books. World War One and World War Two were manufactured in a Manhattan board room. From cradle to grave, we are indoctrinated with lies and propaganda. When you truly understand it, you will realize these wars were actually a war on Christianity. We owe Germany a huge apology.

Ooookaaay.

[seafoid]

Kiev has an emotional attachment for Russians as Kosovan does for Serbs
The initial political unit which over time metamorphosised into Russia was Kievan Rus.

Spain has an "emotional attachment" for ISIS, given that it was part of the Islamic caliphate.

And that "emotional attachment" is about as reasoned, logical and helpful as the Russians' "emotional attachment" to Ukraine or the Serbs' "emotional attachment" to Kosovo.

It's a fact. So is the concept of Russia's " near abroad"
Ukraine has something that Sweden does not have.

Another important angle is WW2 trauma

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2015/10/12/svetlana-alexievich-truth-many-voices/

she spoke of Russian society as a "collective Putin." As she put it, "Putin placed his bet on the basest instincts and won. Even if he disappeared tomorrow, we would remain as we are

Russia is a nation drunk on exquisite, eternal self pity.

The problem for us in the west is that it is us who will experience the self-pity and internal humiliation for generations if Russia is not stood up to and faced down, because Russia wants to destroy not just Ukraine and the other countries is is trying to destroy, but freedom and democracy in the west. And if let, it will.

Russia is paranoid and aggressive like Israel is
It's some form of group PTSD with its roots in WW2.
Most of the killing includin bthe Shoah happened on the Eastern front.

[clonadmad]

the world should be eternally indebted to Russia for WWII,

even the english and yanks acknowledged that,

we saved their ass 

Only the victorious write the history books. World War One and World War Two were manufactured in a Manhattan board room. From cradle to grave, we are indoctrinated with lies and propaganda. When you truly understand it, you will realize these wars were actually a war on Christianity. We owe Germany a huge apology.

Sorry Mr.Hitler