Author Topic: 11th night bonfires  (Read 12304 times)

Applesisapples

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #330 on: July 17, 2017, 10:24:41 AM »
The reality is Sinn Fein worried more about their patch and would do anything possible to push the SDLP out and is quite happy to be dealing with the extreme DUP on the other side, both tried their best to sink the moderate parties back in the late 90`s early 00`s to the point all when f**k all gets done.
The reality is that SF take a longer view, the SDLP could have put them on the spot and didn't. SF realise that the majority of Nationalists are beyond caring about Stormont or Westminster so for SF it is building towards a UI. Whether they achieve that or not is still in doubt but at least they have a game plan. The reasons the SDLP are where they are are many, but a lack of viable policies and a lazy approach at grassroots level and a disconnected and snooty attitude to the nationalist cause are prime issues for me.

Applesisapples

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #331 on: July 17, 2017, 10:27:39 AM »
Apart from being not SF, what is the SDLP and that "significant number if the electorate"  for?
SF are neoliberal
The SDLP could work on that

NI is weird cos the moderate parties were eclipsed by the DUP and SF
Maybe if there is another crisis voters will flip
This is a lazy assessment, the DUP and SF now represent the middle ground whilst holding on to those in their support with more extreme views. The more Unionists and the press demonise SF and their voters the stronger they will become.

armaghniac

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #332 on: July 17, 2017, 11:13:02 AM »
Apart from being not SF, what is the SDLP and that "significant number if the electorate"  for?
SF are neoliberal
The SDLP could work on that

NI is weird cos the moderate parties were eclipsed by the DUP and SF
Maybe if there is another crisis voters will flip
This is a lazy assessment, the DUP and SF now represent the middle ground whilst holding on to those in their support with more extreme views. The more Unionists and the press demonise SF and their voters the stronger they will become.

Whatever about the DUP, SF got more votes not because people became extreme but because SF moved towards the people. And the DUP have become more extreme under Foster, but they still represent "moderation" when compared to the TUV.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Applesisapples

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #333 on: July 17, 2017, 11:29:33 AM »
Apart from being not SF, what is the SDLP and that "significant number if the electorate"  for?
SF are neoliberal
The SDLP could work on that

NI is weird cos the moderate parties were eclipsed by the DUP and SF
Maybe if there is another crisis voters will flip
This is a lazy assessment, the DUP and SF now represent the middle ground whilst holding on to those in their support with more extreme views. The more Unionists and the press demonise SF and their voters the stronger they will become.

Whatever about the DUP, SF got more votes not because people became extreme but because SF moved towards the people. And the DUP have become more extreme under Foster, but they still represent "moderation" when compared to the TUV.
Not scientific but I get the sense that as a nationalist majority looms Unionism is coalescing out of fear and their reaction will drive support for SF and a UI.

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #334 on: July 17, 2017, 11:40:16 AM »
Quare comfortable to be pontificating in the South eh?
Except some of us live in N.Ireland and know exactly what is being done to us and not in Kilkenny just across from their homeland in Wales.
Sinn Féin did what was necessary for the people in general, not for itself.
Yeah, hand over welfare reform to the Tories to hid behind their actions and then blame them for the result.
Even now, all parties are continually negotiating on a return to power sharing because the alternative is not great. Yes, there are issues with the DUP, yes now is finally time to play hard ball but I still dont see anyone backing away from negotiations.
What negotiations, there haven't been any serious negotiations, just calls from Adams for Mrs May to come over and sort out the problems.  Jobs are being lost, parents are losing uniform grants, construction firms going to the wall, etc after SF collapsed Assembly over RHI that it has forgotten and for an ILA that puts no bread on the table for the poorest families.
And if someone can come up with a single example why I should vote for the Kim Jong Un Appreciation Society I'll be interested.
Surprising how much the great leader and his family have in common with SF marxist ideology, economics, etc.
Let's be absolutely honest about things, any Irish person who doesn't back a 32 county republic is a traitor and there is only one party which wants to see that happen.
So, what is your solution to a country where, under your definition, less than 20% of the electorate are traitors.

You don't have to vote Sinn Féin to back a 32 county republic. Oh and I'm Irish, born in Kilkenny but thanks for your xenophobia. The rest of your post was a bit yawny to be honest, lifted, as it was, from the pages of the Irish Independent.

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #335 on: July 17, 2017, 11:49:10 AM »
On the Sinn Féin website right now are press releases:

Calling for the reopening of Al Aqsa mosque (equality - left wing).
Raising concern over Bessborough (to avoid evidence against big organisations who mistreated vulnerable residents being lost - left wing).
Challenging the Taoiseach over Jobstown allegations (taking the side of the little man - left wing).
Calling the raising of pension age to 70 ridiculous (siding with older people - left wing).
Making dedicated respite care a priority (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Making affordable child care and tackling child poverty key priorities (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Highlighting only 21% of a fund for housing people with disabilities being spent in 2016 (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Condemning homophobic abuse (equality - left wing).

I could go on, but what's the point... Sinn Féin actually go out and tackle issues and fight for people on a left wing basis rather than sitting in darkened rooms, trying to ignore the smell from their unwashed hair, clothes and bodies whilst arguing about who is more left wing like the waste of space Trots with their goon show representatives like Eamonn McCann, Gerry Carroll (man makes me vomit) and Richard Boyd Barrett unable to decide on what to call themselves from one day to the next.
In Government in the North they sign off on Tory austerity. . They are similar to Labour. Full of talk in opposition but do what they are told in government.
A SF government in the South would maintain 15% tax.
Being pro gay rights costs nothing. 

The problem with neoliberalism is that it is unstable. And when it crashes working class voters get shafted.

Sinn Féin blocked the Tory welfare bill so it's absolutely false that they have toed the Conservative line at every point. Maintaining the 15% tax rate is necessary if Ireland wants to compete internationally. That's realpolitik, I don't like it and I suspect most in Sinn Féin don't but the country has to attract international employers if it wants to be successful.

The Great Unwashed Juche Front of Trotskyism or whatever they're calling themselves today want a society where nobody has any responsibilities whatsoever but only have rights. Real society doesn't function like that.

Name one single thing the likes of McCann, Carroll or Boyd Barrett have achieved other than saving the nation money in terms of soap and water (un)used in their offices.

On the Sinn Féin website right now are press releases:

Calling for the reopening of Al Aqsa mosque (equality - left wing).
Raising concern over Bessborough (to avoid evidence against big organisations who mistreated vulnerable residents being lost - left wing).
Challenging the Taoiseach over Jobstown allegations (taking the side of the little man - left wing).
Calling the raising of pension age to 70 ridiculous (siding with older people - left wing).
Making dedicated respite care a priority (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Making affordable child care and tackling child poverty key priorities (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Highlighting only 21% of a fund for housing people with disabilities being spent in 2016 (supporting the vulnerable - left wing).
Condemning homophobic abuse (equality - left wing).

I could go on, but what's the point... Sinn Féin actually go out and tackle issues and fight for people on a left wing basis rather than sitting in darkened rooms, trying to ignore the smell from their unwashed hair, clothes and bodies whilst arguing about who is more left wing like the waste of space Trots with their goon show representatives like Eamonn McCann, Gerry Carroll (man makes me vomit) and Richard Boyd Barrett unable to decide on what to call themselves from one day to the next.

Can you list their firm policy proposals and funding?

All in the alternative budget which they publish every year and are, in fact, the only party to do so:

http://www.sinnfein.ie/budget2017
15% tax and membership of the euro "are realpolitik".  I am not sure.  Because they' expose the country to an unstable system in which profits are privatised and losses are socialised.

Who paid to bail out Anglo? Did any company paying tax chip.in ? Or was it the people ?
What did SF do in the North to protect voters from the next crash ?

What's your alternative Pol Pot?
I think you can do better than the Eurozone not having a bank bailout fund without needing to resort to genocide.
In 2006 56% of people in the South were members of a private pension scheme.  Today it''s 30%.
That is the system.

I agree, but Sinn Féin aren't part of the system. They opposed the bailout for a start and argued for burning the bondholders.

The PBP are a joke, they achieve nothing other than damage an already fragile left wing vote in the south. I'd love to see you outline just one thing they've achieved.

seafoid

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #336 on: July 17, 2017, 12:06:53 PM »
Apart from being not SF, what is the SDLP and that "significant number if the electorate"  for?
SF are neoliberal
The SDLP could work on that

NI is weird cos the moderate parties were eclipsed by the DUP and SF
Maybe if there is another crisis voters will flip
This is a lazy assessment, the DUP and SF now represent the middle ground whilst holding on to those in their support with more extreme views. The more Unionists and the press demonise SF and their voters the stronger they will become.

Whatever about the DUP, SF got more votes not because people became extreme but because SF moved towards the people. And the DUP have become more extreme under Foster, but they still represent "moderation" when compared to the TUV.
It''s a totally polarised political system. Maybe it's all the DUP''s fault but I doubt it. Maybe SF are just reacting to DUP paranoia.  Maybe they generate some of it
Would it be different if the UUP was the biggest party?
Last of the choc-ices there now

armaghniac

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #337 on: July 17, 2017, 12:20:40 PM »
Apart from being not SF, what is the SDLP and that "significant number if the electorate"  for?
SF are neoliberal
The SDLP could work on that

NI is weird cos the moderate parties were eclipsed by the DUP and SF
Maybe if there is another crisis voters will flip
This is a lazy assessment, the DUP and SF now represent the middle ground whilst holding on to those in their support with more extreme views. The more Unionists and the press demonise SF and their voters the stronger they will become.

Whatever about the DUP, SF got more votes not because people became extreme but because SF moved towards the people. And the DUP have become more extreme under Foster, but they still represent "moderation" when compared to the TUV.
Not scientific but I get the sense that as a nationalist majority looms Unionism is coalescing out of fear and their reaction will drive support for SF and a UI.

Which is why the union is no good. If the unionists really wanted the union and not just supremacy then they would ensure a NI that people had no real reason to want to leave, which in current terms would be one in which in things the Irish language were respected and promoted and trade and commerce with the rest of the island facilitated and developed. They clearly do not want a union that works for all, but only supremacy.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

ashman

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #338 on: July 17, 2017, 12:26:48 PM »
Kilkevan

SF agreed in principle to the bank guarantee in 2008 .  Then realising the consequences that we anti it .  They argued to burn the bond holders which was easy in opposition but never ever explained how they would meet the consequent gap in income v expenditure .

SF are Fianna Fail's little brother .

Kilkevan

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #339 on: July 17, 2017, 12:55:00 PM »
Kilkevan

SF agreed in principle to the bank guarantee in 2008 .  Then realising the consequences that we anti it .  They argued to burn the bond holders which was easy in opposition but never ever explained how they would meet the consequent gap in income v expenditure .

SF are Fianna Fail's little brother .

So they were pro something, then realised it was bad for the country and changed their position and went anti it. Sounds like intelligent politics to me. Fianna Fail wrecked the country, not Sinn Féin.

Wildweasel74

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Re: 11th night bonfires
« Reply #340 on: July 17, 2017, 10:19:06 PM »
Wheres this majority u keep talking about! I been hearing this line for 15yrs and still unionist hold a bigger % and will do for the next 30yrs by which i be long gone; so the ui talk doesnt really hold much sway for me as in the present day health sevice a mess; education  at tipping point but hey lets all talk about a ui! Maybe if u look at voting patterns nearly 35-40% dont vote cause they give up on clowns talking about a ui and flags/bonfires and marches!!