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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Orior on September 20, 2013, 11:41:37 AM

Title: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on September 20, 2013, 11:41:37 AM
This probaby deserves its own thread. Here is my view of the background to the Haas talks:

1) The DUP were pissed aff at Alliance getting the East Belfast seat, so they tricked the Ulster Unionists into a partnership and concocted a story about flags on the City Hall to scare the low-brow knuckle draggers. Their leaflet drop had the desired effect as it blamed Alliance for making belfast city hall less british/english. Unfortunately after that, things got out of hand, the mob took over with riots, protests etc. It was also a disaster for the business community. [The guy who came up with the leaflet idea said "ooops" but then realised he could blame the economic disaster on Nama. What a star he is!].

2) Unionists hate being told what to do, or what not to do. Especially by those pesky fenians. They want to march where they like, they want to celebrate past battles, but dont want fenians doing the same (Long Kesh and Beleek)

3) Unionists/Orange Order are not getting their way, so they thought let's try another angle - bring in the yanks.


In these talks, the nationalists have nothing to loose (hence our williningness to participate) and unionists have everything to loose (but they are so stupid they dont realise it yet). It will all end in tears. 
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 11:56:08 AM
Are you Mark Devenport or Ken Reid?

Seriously, I don't understand why people (nationalists) in particular don't jettison the yanks and demand the British Government (who has sovereignty) deals with unionist bigotry and violence here once and for all, as they do effectively with all extremists from the BNP to Muslim hate clerics, on the "mainland".

Nationalists are continually letting the British off the hook in this regard, and effectively supporting the British angle to the world that it is an "Irish" problem, not of our making and we've done all we can.

Could you imagine Haass being brought into N.London to host talks to try to resolve racial tensions?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 12:23:30 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 11:56:08 AM
Are you Mark Devenport or Ken Reid?

Seriously, I don't understand why people (nationalists) in particular don't jettison the yanks and demand the British Government (who has sovereignty) deals with unionist bigotry and violence here once and for all, as they do effectively with all extremists from the BNP to Muslim hate clerics, on the "mainland".

Nationalists are continually letting the British off the hook in this regard, and effectively supporting the British angle to the world that it is an "Irish" problem, not of our making and we've done all we can.

Could you imagine Haass being brought into N.London to host talks to try to resolve racial tensions?

Since when did the British Government listen to "demands" from nationalist Ireland without having to be bombed into doing so? You honestly expect a tory government to back nationalist "demands" to come down hard on unionism??
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: laoislad on September 20, 2013, 12:29:20 PM
Christy Moore should write a song about it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 01:02:11 PM
I'm saying the British Government should deal with problems in areas in which it has exclusive sovereignty, and not be allowed to palm these problems off to the USA etc. If all shades of nationalism, combined with the Dublin government, demanded this, (instead of willingly participating in talks hosted by US diplomats) it would be a lot more likely to happen. Look what happened to Sinn Fein when pressure from all quarters was put on it for a Ceasefire, then decommissioning.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 01:02:11 PM
I'm saying the British Government should deal with problems in areas in which it has exclusive sovereignty, and not be allowed to palm these problems off to the USA etc. If all shades of nationalism, combined with the Dublin government, demanded this, (instead of willingly participating in talks hosted by US diplomats) it would be a lot more likely to happen. Look what happened to Sinn Fein when pressure from all quarters was put on it for a Ceasefire, then decommissioning.

Of course Dublin put pressure on the shinners. They'd take great glee in doing so while SF pose a threat to those in power there, but expecting a british tory government to come down hard on unionism, and all because nationalists just asked them to, is absolutely fanciful thinking! All shades of nationalism & Dublin demanded the brits talk to republicans but it took a bombing campaign for them to sit up and listen to such demands from nationalist Ireland. And as far as Dublin is concerned, the british government never had taken "demands" seriously from there. The day after Lizzy left last year (when we were told about the new relationship and new mutual respect blah blah blah), the british government once again brushed away a "demand" from Dublin for the files on the bombings to be released.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 02:26:19 PM
But Haass and his ilk, hosting talks, conveniently allows the British to take a back seat, in an area where they are the sovereign power, and allows them to portray the problem as an Irish one, for which they have no responsibility. How about SF and SDLP making a song and dance about this across Europe and the USA and put pressure on the British by so doing.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 02:42:01 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 02:26:19 PM
But Haass and his ilk, hosting talks, conveniently allows the British to take a back seat, in an area where they are the sovereign power, and allows them to portray the problem as an Irish one, for which they have no responsibility. How about SF and SDLP making a song and dance about this across Europe and the USA and put pressure on the British by so doing.

Again, it would take a heck of a lot more than an song and dance by nationalist politicians to make a tory government stand up to unionism. To reference the Dublin/Monaghan bombings again, Dublin has repeatedly threatened to take the case for the release of British Files to the European Court of Human Rights. Many collusion victims have been to Europe and beyond in their campaigns for truth etc. British Governments simply do not side with nationalism against unionism. It took 38 YEARS for them to accept culpability for Bloody Sunday, and that in the face of immense international pressure ffs! I know you are saying it would be nice for the British Government to take responsibilty for unionist actions here, but to think they ever would is beyond naive.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 03:18:09 PM
It's not beyond naive to use the offices of Europe and USA to take notice of what's happening and exert maxium pressure on the British Government. They may not listen or repsond to Sinn Fein, SDLP or Irish Government, but they will to Europe and the USA in particular.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 03:41:11 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 03:18:09 PM
It's not beyond naive to use the offices of Europe and USA to take notice of what's happening and exert maxium pressure on the British Government. They may not listen or repsond to Sinn Fein, SDLP or Irish Government, but they will to Europe and the USA in particular.

Europe & the USA aren't going to devote their time to a handful of loyalists blocking a road here and there. And only a few posts back you were complaining about he USA having any involvement in it at all! You've come full circle!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 03:49:13 PM
USA's involvement should be exerting pressure on Britain, not assuming Britain's role in directly sorting out problems in a region where Britain has sovereignty.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 03:53:42 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 03:49:13 PM
USA's involvement should be exerting pressure on Britain, not assuming Britain's role in directly sorting out problems in a region where Britain has sovereignty.

Again overlooking the fact that sending a diplomat in the shape of Richard Haas is about as much as the US are going to do. Tony, you have to be realistic. The tory British government simply isn't going to stand up to unionism at the behest of Irish nationalists and the USA doesn't give enough of a hoot about a handful of loyalist road blocks to give a shite. No point in pretending otherwise.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on September 20, 2013, 04:23:40 PM
You are all missing the central issue here and that is you can bring back Enoch Powell or Maggie T or even Prince William of Orange. Bottom line is these bigot orange and loyalist toe rags will not budge an inch and they are holding all of unionism to ransom. It doesn't help that the DUP have a faction led by McCausland who's views are not a kick in the arse of those of thefleg protesting loyalists at Twaddell Ave...nothing will be agreed because for agreement they need to give nad they won't.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 04:43:45 PM
If appropriate pressure is applied (who'd have thought 20 years ago Sinn Fein would have called a ceasefire let alone decommission its weaponry) anything can happen. Even if what you say is true, the USA should not continually provide a fig leaf for the British here.

Oh and by the way, Brtish tories will stand up to anything or anyone, when it suits them of course.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: red hander on September 20, 2013, 05:00:40 PM
A total and utter waste of time that will lead to nothing, only the massaging of Richard Haass's ego (and that of his easy-on-the-eye sidekick) as some sort of international diplomatic firefighters. We'll still be in the same pile of shite in 20 years' time, and the swine (and their family employees) up in Stormont will still be at the trough, feeding off our taxes and delivering zilch
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Kidder81 on September 20, 2013, 05:23:05 PM
Quote from: red hander on September 20, 2013, 05:00:40 PM
A total and utter waste of time that will lead to nothing, only the massaging of Richard Haass's ego (and that of his easy-on-the-eye sidekick) as some sort of international diplomatic firefighters. We'll still be in the same pile of shite in 20 years' time, and the swine (and their family employees) up in Stormont will still be at the trough, feeding off our taxes and delivering zilch

Absolutely. Another glorified talking shop, just like talks in Cardiff, lots of shite talk about "progress" and "positive dialogue" but nothing will change. I am sure they are all getting well fed and watered at it though
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on September 20, 2013, 05:27:03 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 04:43:45 PM
If appropriate pressure is applied (who'd have thought 20 years ago Sinn Fein would have called a ceasefire let alone decommission its weaponry) anything can happen. Even if what you say is true, the USA should not continually provide a fig leaf for the British here.

Oh and by the way, Brtish tories will stand up to anything or anyone, when it suits them of course.

And does it suit them to stand up to unionism? Does it fcuk!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on September 20, 2013, 06:34:22 PM
Thanks Red Hander and Kidder for confirming my views.It is only when the British,via intense international pressure,are forced to address the problems of an area for which they have sovereign responsibility,that tangible progress will be made.It certainly won't be made by US Diplomats (who don't even understand the problem) chairing talks and meeting everyone and his uncle.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on September 20, 2013, 09:25:37 PM
Well, I suppose she is easier on the eye than Nelson McCausland

(http://www.bushcenter.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Meghan%20O'Sullivan.jpg.jpg?itok=2S9xmme_)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Gaffer on September 21, 2013, 08:49:34 AM
Quote from: Orior on September 20, 2013, 09:25:37 PM
Well, I suppose she is easier on the eye than Nelson McCausland

(http://www.bushcenter.org/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/Meghan%20O'Sullivan.jpg.jpg?itok=2S9xmme_)

  Wonder will any of the local politicians make a move there?

One of them's bound to be a horny wee fcuker!!!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 13, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
Makes a bit of a change from spilling blood.



Row erupts between DUP and Richard Haass By Gareth Gordon



It has emerged there was a row between the DUP and multi-party talks chairman Richard Haass on Thursday.

Party sources have told the BBC they are "spitting blood".

No further details were given, though Thursday's meeting would have centred on the issue of flags.

Before going in to meet the former US diplomat on Friday afternoon, the Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson said the party had been "robust".

"Well I don't want to try and characterise any of the meetings that we have had," he said.

"When it has come to propositions that have been put to us with which we are in clear disagreement, we have left no-one in any doubt about our disagreement."

The DUP is currently meeting the Haass team in talks dealing with the past.

Further multi-party talks have been taking place on Friday, and will continue over the weekend.

Dr Haass has said he is determined to bring the talks to a head by the end of the year, and ideally before Christmas.

The US diplomat has returned to Northern Ireland on Monday for what he said would be an "intense two weeks of deliberations and negotiations".

Compromise

He will hold three separate meetings on flags, parades, and the past, with each of the five biggest political parties.

Speaking before going into Friday's talks, Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly said all parties had room for compromise.

"As far as we're concerned, anything that any of the parties want to put on the table, we will listen to it," he said.

"Anything that Richard Haass puts on the table, we are going to listen to it and discuss it."

Mr Kelly said progress was being made, but he would not be drawn on the specific details.

Alliance MP Naomi Long warned on Thursday that the issue of Northern Ireland's past may never be resolved if politicians fail to reach agreement on how to deal with it.

Ms Long, who is one of the party's negotiators at the talks, told BBC's The View there was an opportunity that needed to be grasped, as the multi-party talks entered a crucial phase.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on December 13, 2013, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 13, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
Makes a bit of a change from spilling blood.



Row erupts between DUP and Richard Haass By Gareth Gordon



It has emerged there was a row between the DUP and multi-party talks chairman Richard Haass on Thursday.

Party sources have told the BBC they are "spitting blood".

No further details were given, though Thursday's meeting would have centred on the issue of flags.

Before going in to meet the former US diplomat on Friday afternoon, the Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson said the party had been "robust".

"Well I don't want to try and characterise any of the meetings that we have had," he said.

"When it has come to propositions that have been put to us with which we are in clear disagreement, we have left no-one in any doubt about our disagreement."

The DUP is currently meeting the Haass team in talks dealing with the past.

Further multi-party talks have been taking place on Friday, and will continue over the weekend.

Dr Haass has said he is determined to bring the talks to a head by the end of the year, and ideally before Christmas.

The US diplomat has returned to Northern Ireland on Monday for what he said would be an "intense two weeks of deliberations and negotiations".

Compromise

He will hold three separate meetings on flags, parades, and the past, with each of the five biggest political parties.

Speaking before going into Friday's talks, Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly said all parties had room for compromise.

"As far as we're concerned, anything that any of the parties want to put on the table, we will listen to it," he said.

"Anything that Richard Haass puts on the table, we are going to listen to it and discuss it."

Mr Kelly said progress was being made, but he would not be drawn on the specific details.

Alliance MP Naomi Long warned on Thursday that the issue of Northern Ireland's past may never be resolved if politicians fail to reach agreement on how to deal with it.

Ms Long, who is one of the party's negotiators at the talks, told BBC's The View there was an opportunity that needed to be grasped, as the multi-party talks entered a crucial phase.

That's interesting. Anyone know when the past finishes and becomes current? Do they argue over what happened in 1969, 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, 2012, last month, last week, this morning and at the start of the meeting?

They could be there forever!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 13, 2013, 06:24:24 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 13, 2013, 05:52:51 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 13, 2013, 05:45:09 PM
Makes a bit of a change from spilling blood.



Row erupts between DUP and Richard Haass By Gareth Gordon



It has emerged there was a row between the DUP and multi-party talks chairman Richard Haass on Thursday.

Party sources have told the BBC they are "spitting blood".

No further details were given, though Thursday's meeting would have centred on the issue of flags.

Before going in to meet the former US diplomat on Friday afternoon, the Lagan Valley MP Jeffrey Donaldson said the party had been "robust".

"Well I don't want to try and characterise any of the meetings that we have had," he said.

"When it has come to propositions that have been put to us with which we are in clear disagreement, we have left no-one in any doubt about our disagreement."

The DUP is currently meeting the Haass team in talks dealing with the past.

Further multi-party talks have been taking place on Friday, and will continue over the weekend.

Dr Haass has said he is determined to bring the talks to a head by the end of the year, and ideally before Christmas.

The US diplomat has returned to Northern Ireland on Monday for what he said would be an "intense two weeks of deliberations and negotiations".

Compromise

He will hold three separate meetings on flags, parades, and the past, with each of the five biggest political parties.

Speaking before going into Friday's talks, Sinn Féin MLA Gerry Kelly said all parties had room for compromise.

"As far as we're concerned, anything that any of the parties want to put on the table, we will listen to it," he said.

"Anything that Richard Haass puts on the table, we are going to listen to it and discuss it."

Mr Kelly said progress was being made, but he would not be drawn on the specific details.

Alliance MP Naomi Long warned on Thursday that the issue of Northern Ireland's past may never be resolved if politicians fail to reach agreement on how to deal with it.

Ms Long, who is one of the party's negotiators at the talks, told BBC's The View there was an opportunity that needed to be grasped, as the multi-party talks entered a crucial phase.

That's interesting. Anyone know when the past finishes and becomes current? Do they argue over what happened in 1969, 1972, 1982, 1992, 2002, 2012, last month, last week, this morning and at the start of the meeting?

They could be there forever!


The meter is running - they'll hardly if they have to go round the block a few more times.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 13, 2013, 09:55:48 PM
The DUP raised a motion in west minister to bring more respect to the union flag in the North, ie to be displayed more ( yes even more) etc etc. No one backed the motion part from themselves :o
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 16, 2013, 04:19:22 PM
Quelle surprise !!


Haass talks:

Peter Robinson says draft plan 'unacceptable' Richard Haass is chairing talks aimed at resolving outstanding disputes in the NI peace process



Draft proposals on Northern Ireland's past, parades and flags are unacceptable to the DUP, its leader Peter Robinson has said.

The five main Stormont parties have been examining the document drawn up by US diplomat Richard Haass.

While the first minister said he thought there could be progress on parades and the past, on flags things seemed to be "moving backwards".

However, Mr Robinson said he believed agreement was still possible.

"Nobody is throwing the towel in at this stage," he said.

"We are just saying there is not a set of proposals that we can support or agree to or recommend."

The draft document was examined by DUP party officers on Monday, but Mr Robinson said there was no point in bringing it to his assembly team as they would not endorse proposals which were "unhelpful and unworkable".

'Robust ideas'

"If I thought that was the final paper, there would be steam coming out of my ears," he said.

DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson, SDLP leader Alasdair McDonnell and UUP leader Mike Nesbitt give their initial impressions
"But it is not the final paper and we still have work to do, and we are up to doing that work."

SDLP MLA Alex Attwood said the document had "strength and depth".

His party leader Alasdair McDonnell added: "It's very early days in that there'll be three or four days of intense debate, discussing, dissecting and deciding exactly what some of the words mean, because there's some very robust ideas and ideas that we're hopeful about.

"We have to then get to the stage where all the parties are in sync on all of these things and that will be difficult.

"We're hopeful, we want to see progress and there's room here for progress."

'Thorniest issue'

Paraphrasing Margaret Thatcher, Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt said things were "more out, out, out and we're a long way from in, in, in".

He added: "I don't think it'll be any secret to people that flags has emerged as the thorniest issue, that remains the case in terms of this first draft (document).

"You can expect that there are issues that are being floated perhaps that you have to accept are there today, but hopefully will not be there tomorrow.

"All things are possible if people come at it honestly with a spirit of generosity towards each other, but also determined that the outcomes are fair. I will remain optimistic until it's over."

While the parties examined the proposals at Stormont, talks chairman Dr Haass had travelled to London to meet the Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers and Downing Street officials.

'Intense'

Dr Haass was expected to brief them on progress to date.

He will return on Tuesday for another round of talks with Northern Ireland politicians.

Dr Haass has previously said he is determined to bring the talks to a head by the end of the year.

Five rooms were set aside inside the Stormont Hotel in Belfast on Monday for the political parties to examine Dr Haass's draft document.

The parties were told not to bring in any phones or other communication devices, nor to leave with any copies of the draft.

From Wednesday, the discussions are expected to move up a gear as Dr Haass's team pushes towards an agreed conclusion.

The US diplomat returned to Northern Ireland last Monday for what he said would be an "intense two weeks of deliberations and negotiations".
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 16, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
Presumably "we" want some recognition for our National Flag while the DUP no doubt want only one flag flying everywhere all over the 6 Cos??
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 16, 2013, 05:05:58 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
Presumably "we" want some recognition for our National Flag while the DUP no doubt want only one flag flying everywhere all over the 6 Cos??

Something like that.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: screenexile on December 16, 2013, 05:21:31 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnH1OkBgTuQ

From 2:40 on...
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on December 16, 2013, 05:36:48 PM
Do they ever have any sorts of talks that aren't "intense" ?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on December 16, 2013, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
Presumably "we" want some recognition for our National Flag while the DUP no doubt want only one flag flying everywhere all over the 6 Cos??
The DUP wouldn't even find the 'no flags' option acceptable, even though that's the sensible and logical option.

I can't see where a sensible agreement will come from on any of this. On the unionist side of the house, the DUP have never taken the bold steps or compromises - they left that to the UUP at the GFA and then stepped into government afterwards, blaming the UUP for all the concessions, whilst enjoying the perks.

Also, quite alarming that they can get closer to a deal on the past than on flags.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on December 16, 2013, 06:16:28 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 16, 2013, 05:54:25 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 16, 2013, 05:01:36 PM
Presumably "we" want some recognition for our National Flag while the DUP no doubt want only one flag flying everywhere all over the 6 Cos??
The DUP wouldn't even find the 'no flags' option acceptable, even though that's the sensible and logical option.

I can't see where a sensible agreement will come from on any of this. On the unionist side of the house, the DUP have never taken the bold steps or compromises - they left that to the UUP at the GFA and then stepped into government afterwards, blaming the UUP for all the concessions, whilst enjoying the perks.

Also, quite alarming that they can get closer to a deal on the past than on flags.

Sadly, I think you may be right...
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley

"more equality" ?!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley

"more equality" ?!

Yip,you not understand ::)equality in certain aspects of life in the North but still missing in others so the job in hand is to make this happen.Your wee chums on Friday night will not achieve it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:46:02 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley

"more equality" ?!

Yip,you not understand ::)equality in certain aspects of life in the North but still missing in others so the job in hand is to make this happen.Your wee chums on Friday night will not achieve it.

Yep, if you take issue with you or the Shinners you are a dissident.

So what areas of life do Catholics not have equality in 2013?

Take your time.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 16, 2013, 09:34:39 PM
Equality? well their should be no organization in northern ireland which bans persons on a religious grounds for a start, not that i got a sudden notion to join the orange order anyway.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on December 16, 2013, 10:13:11 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 16, 2013, 09:34:39 PM
Equality? well their should be no organization in northern ireland which bans persons on a religious grounds for a start, not that i got a sudden notion to join the orange order anyway.
Why not? You have to be a Catholic to join the Catholic Church, do you not?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 10:37:31 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:46:02 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley

"more equality" ?!

Yip,you not understand ::)equality in certain aspects of life in the North but still missing in others so the job in hand is to make this happen.Your wee chums on Friday night will not achieve it.

Yep, if you take issue with you or the Shinners you are a dissident.

So what areas of life do Catholics not have equality in 2013?

Take your time.

The reason for the talks,flags,parades and victims for a start.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 17, 2013, 01:59:11 PM
Haass talks: Sinn Féin 'have difficulties' but agreement possible Gerry Kelly said Sinn Féin had stayed away from 'histrionics' over the proposals

Sinn Féin have "a series of difficulties" with draft proposals on flags, parades and the legacy of the Troubles, a senior figure has said.

However, Gerry Kelly said it was possible to reach agreement this week if the "political will" was there.

The parties are involved in another round of talks, a day after receiving US diplomat Richard Haass's proposals.

"We are in this together, we have to come to a conclusion together, we are open for that," said Mr Kelly.

His comments were Sinn Féin's first public reaction to the draft proposals drawn up by Dr Haass and his team.

On Tuesday, DUP leader Peter Robinson said there would be "steam coming out of my ears" if he thought that the draft document was the final paper.

'Honourable compromise'

Mr Kelly said his party had deliberately stayed away from "histrionics".

Dr Haass said on Tuesday that he was still hopeful of reaching agreement.

The DUP will meet Dr Haass on Tuesday afternoon. Earlier, he met with Alliance and the SDLP.

Speaking during a break from the talks, he said a fresh draft document would be given to the parties on Wednesday.

SDLP leader Alasdair McDonnell said he believed there was room for "honourable compromise" and that the parties had to move away from "narrow political interest".

"What we're looking for is further building onto the foundations that are there," he said.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on December 17, 2013, 02:17:16 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:46:02 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:38:09 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 16, 2013, 06:28:33 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 16, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
It's all about keeping the pressure on for more equality.Unionists will always have to be dragged kicking and screaming.Unfortunatley

"more equality" ?!

Yip,you not understand ::)equality in certain aspects of life in the North but still missing in others so the job in hand is to make this happen.Your wee chums on Friday night will not achieve it.

Yep, if you take issue with you or the Shinners you are a dissident.

So what areas of life do Catholics not have equality in 2013?

Take your time.
They can't become head of state for a start. Look at the actions of unionist controlled councils, no parity of esteem on flags anthems etc, to start with.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on December 17, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
Would be amazed if SF agreed to a new NI fleg :o
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 17, 2013, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: AQMP on December 17, 2013, 02:22:09 PM
Would be amazed if SF agreed to a new NI fleg :o

No chance
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Kidder81 on December 17, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
Surprised these talks are receiving so much attention in the media, it's just another sham fight. DUP and Sinn Fèin both now saying they are unhappy with the outcome of the talks. So we will have the usual bollocks for a while, will they won't they agree to it until miraculously they then save the day and agree and try to look like saviours.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 17, 2013, 05:31:58 PM
Quote from: Kidder81 on December 17, 2013, 05:22:31 PM
Surprised these talks are receiving so much attention in the media, it's just another sham fight. DUP and Sinn Fèin both now saying they are unhappy with the outcome of the talks. So we will have the usual bollocks for a while, will they won't they agree to it until miraculously they then save the day and agree and try to look like saviours.

So predicatable.


It's as real life as Big Daddy and Giant Haystacks and Mick Mc Manus on a Saturday afternoon on World of Sport.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on December 18, 2013, 10:42:35 AM
except the DUP again Will wipe SF's eye. We are going to end up with the flag over the Guildhall. Listening to vox pops on the Falls from last nights Radio Ulster that will not necessarily annoy the new Northern Irish alive and living in West Belfast. Whilst to a man on the Shankill it was our fleg our country. Only a matter of time until we have the Ulster Banner flying over Connolly House.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on December 18, 2013, 10:48:14 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't already a pre-agreed outcome to these "intensive talks", the rest is just the usual nonsense posturing from our politicians.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 18, 2013, 10:57:00 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on December 18, 2013, 10:42:35 AM
except the DUP again Will wipe SF's eye. We are going to end up with the flag over the Guildhall. Listening to vox pops on the Falls from last nights Radio Ulster that will not necessarily annoy the new Northern Irish alive and living in West Belfast. Whilst to a man on the Shankill it was our fleg our country. Only a matter of time until we have the Ulster Banner flying over Connolly House.

::) ::)yeah,yeah,yeah.Dont hold your breath.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 20, 2013, 11:24:50 AM
blah, blah, blah.

The flying of the Irish tricolour on government buildings has been ruled out by Richard Haass, the BBC has learned.

The former US diplomat is heading a team attempting to resolve the issues of parades, flags and the past.

It is understood his proposals include a licensing system for the flying of flags, a trauma centre and new bodies for dealing with parading and the past.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Bensars on December 20, 2013, 11:26:43 AM
Keeps the cnuts ( all of them by the way! ) in the money for another year or two arguing about nothing.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 20, 2013, 12:19:03 PM
When did you hear this before and how many times have you heard it at this stage ?


Broken record stuff at this stage :


"We're prepared to work on for as long as it takes to resolve these issues because we recognise how important they are for the people of Northern Ireland."

Sinn Féin's talks negotiator, Gerry Kelly, said "advances" had been made.

"We can make progress, but the political will needs to be there and this is an opportunity which we, certainly in Sinn Féin, and I would say all the parties, need not to lose, is we'll not come back again easily, so we're up for finishing the job for the people in the north, and indeed throughout Ireland and Britain," he said.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on December 20, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 20, 2013, 12:19:03 PM
When did you hear this before and how many times have you heard it at this stage ?


Broken record stuff at this stage :


"We're prepared to work on for as long as it takes to resolve these issues because we recognise how important they are for the people of Northern Ireland."

Sinn Féin's talks negotiator lothario, Gerry Kelly, said "advances" had been made.

"We can make progress, but the political will needs to be there and this is an opportunity which we, certainly in Sinn Féin, and I would say all the parties, need not to lose, is we'll not come back again easily, so we're up for finishing the job for the people in the north, and indeed throughout Ireland and Britain," he said.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on December 20, 2013, 04:04:34 PM
There is no chance of any progress on flags until the Unionist minority drops from 47% to around 40%, then they will fall over themselves to keep the Union Jack flying even if it means accepting a role for the tricoulour (or trickeler as they call it). SF and the SDLP had beter not role out designated days to all councils.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 20, 2013, 10:54:20 PM
They like 2 five year olds, arguing over toy, i fairly say none of these politicians are fit for government and it says alot about people in northern ireland that we still keep pick these idiots. personally i dont give a f**k for flags, it just makes your area look like a run down shit hole, giving the economic situation in this country, and various other problems, to be on constant discussion  about flags and parades shows how juneville the people who run this country are.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 21, 2013, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 20, 2013, 10:54:20 PM
They like 2 five year olds, arguing over toy, i fairly say none of these politicians are fit for government and it says alot about people in northern ireland that we still keep pick these idiots. personally i dont give a f**k for flags, it just makes your area look like a run down shit hole, giving the economic situation in this country, and various other problems, to be on constant discussion  about flags and parades shows how juneville the people who run this country are.

Ffs how are they in constant discussion about flags and parades.What would you do just let them parade everywhere,that's what happened for 80 years and look where it got us.These problems have to be sorted along with,education.welfare reform,health and all other issues that effect society.Why don't you get involved in politics and put your ideas forward instead of acting like a 5 year old on here complaining about everything.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on December 21, 2013, 08:35:46 PM
Things you don't see in middle class northern areas:

Flags on lampposts or from houses on July 12

Parades

Sinn Fein/DUP offices

Bonfires

Segregated housing.

Feel free to add to the list
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Dougal Maguire on December 21, 2013, 08:40:27 PM
Quote from: Orior on December 20, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Quote from: orangeman on December 20, 2013, 12:19:03 PM
When did you hear this before and how many times have you heard it at this stage ?


Broken record stuff at this stage :


"We're prepared to work on for as long as it takes to resolve these issues because we recognise how important they are for the people of Northern Ireland."

Sinn Féin's talks negotiator lothario, Gerry Kelly, said "advances" had been made.

"We can make progress, but the political will needs to be there and this is an opportunity which we, certainly in Sinn Féin, and I would say all the parties, need not to lose, is we'll not come back again easily, so we're up for finishing the job for the people in the north, and indeed throughout Ireland and Britain," he said.

Fixed that for you.
You reckon Gerry and Meghan might have got jiggy at all
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 22, 2013, 12:55:19 AM
There's no truth in the rumour that Ulster council are looking for Haas to stay on and talk to the college and county managers to sort out the Mc Kenna cup impasse.

Ulster council say that big Joe is a bigger and better man than Haas and easier paid as well.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Gaffer on December 22, 2013, 02:50:11 PM
Joe wouldn't  take it on.

He wouldn't  risk missing his Xmas dinner.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on December 23, 2013, 10:06:30 AM
Listening to reports on the radio this morning, I can see absolutely no advancement here for nationalists. Anything remotely culturaly or symbolically Irish has been removed at Unionist insistance.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on December 23, 2013, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 21, 2013, 08:35:46 PM
Things you don't see in middle class northern areas:

Flags on lampposts or from houses on July 12

Parades

Sinn Fein/DUP offices

Bonfires

Segregated housing.

Feel free to add to the list
harses tied up grazing along the road or the front garden
transit vans with alloy wheels
greyhounds
trainers tied over the electric wires
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: WeeDonns on December 23, 2013, 02:27:39 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 21, 2013, 08:35:46 PM
Things you don't see in middle class northern areas:

Flags on lampposts or from houses on July 12

Parades

Sinn Fein/DUP offices

Bonfires

Segregated housing.

Feel free to add to the list

even if your county team are in the Ulster final?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on December 23, 2013, 04:36:54 PM
UTV headline - "Late finish for Haas crunch talks"

Now there's a shocker, now all we need is reports of fast food getting delivered in to them.

They are some shower.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 23, 2013, 05:24:36 PM
Quote from: Minder on December 23, 2013, 04:36:54 PM
UTV headline - "Late finish for Haas crunch talks"

Now there's a shocker, now all we need is reports of fast food getting delivered in to them.

They are some shower.

The order is in.

Sweet and sour turkey
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on December 23, 2013, 08:26:01 PM
There'll be no shopping done in some households.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 24, 2013, 09:23:31 AM
Overtime for Haas and co after Christmas.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on December 24, 2013, 09:50:10 AM
The only winners so far is The Stormont Hotel.Given that the Good Friday Agreement was concluded in Stormont itself ( a few hundred yards away and big enough to hold rock concerts) why did they have to go to a hotel?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on December 24, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
Perhaps the grub was better in the hotel? If it hadn't been as good they might have settled to get out.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 24, 2013, 11:12:12 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 24, 2013, 09:50:10 AM
The only winners so far is The Stormont Hotel.Given that the Good Friday Agreement was concluded in Stormont itself ( a few hundred yards away and big enough to hold rock concerts) why did they have to go to a hotel?

Like the song, you can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on December 24, 2013, 11:31:00 AM
NI21 are not at these talks, but I suppose if you don't have a cut-off somewhere the TUV would have to be thee too and that wouldn't help.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: J OGorman on December 24, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
What would the collective term be for a crowd of handsomely paid bluffers?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on December 24, 2013, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on December 24, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
What would the collective term be for a crowd of handsomely paid bluffers?

The Northern Ireland Executive
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: ONeill on December 24, 2013, 12:32:49 PM
Flags, marching and emblems.

Lovely part of the world here.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on December 24, 2013, 12:50:28 PM
It is disappointing that this crap is still going on into 2014, 16 years after the GFA. The Patten report required that PSNI stations fly only their own flag and this was helpful in ensuring that they were seen to serve all of the community. This policy should have been adopted by all public buildings. Yet with this clear example before them they have these endless talks going around and around.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Aaron Boone on December 24, 2013, 12:57:35 PM
Quote from: ONeill on December 24, 2013, 12:32:49 PM
Flags, marching and emblems.

Lovely part of the world here.

Has Haas hastened his hiatus to a has-been?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: red hander on December 24, 2013, 02:04:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 24, 2013, 12:50:28 PM
It is disappointing that this crap is still going on into 2014, 16 years after the GFA. The Patten report required that PSNI stations fly only their own flag and this was helpful in ensuring that they were seen to serve all of the community. This policy should have been adopted by all public buildings. Yet with this clear example before them they have these endless talks going around and around.

The DUP's attitude over flags is about one thing and one thing only - winning back East Belfast.  Their stance to accept designated days everywhere else if the butcher's apron is put back up 365 days a year at Belfast City Hall, despite the democratic decision to go to designated days (that's 'democratic', as in Democratic Unionist Party), had it been accepted, would have been presented to the loyalist scummery of East Belfast as "we got you the fleg back up at City Hall" and Naomi would then be toast
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 24, 2013, 02:33:58 PM
Naomi is toast fleg or no fleg.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 24, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
Is it true that the Unionists wanted SF to agree/sign up to saying that the PIRA's campaign was "terrorism"? :o
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2013, 05:53:03 PM
dont waste than poor mans time dragging him back on dec the 27th, u had plenty of time to sort it out and couldnt
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on December 24, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 24, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
Is it true that the Unionists wanted SF to agree/sign up to saying that the PIRA's campaign was "terrorism"? :o

Yip and its not going to happen.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 24, 2013, 10:18:18 PM
Quote from: glens abu on December 24, 2013, 08:48:39 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 24, 2013, 05:44:46 PM
Is it true that the Unionists wanted SF to agree/sign up to saying that the PIRA's campaign was "terrorism"? :o

Yip and its not going to happen.
I wouldn't expect it to either.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 27, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2013, 05:53:03 PM
dont waste than poor mans time dragging him back on dec the 27th, u had plenty of time to sort it out and couldnt
He's coming back according to the News this evening.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 27, 2013, 08:06:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 27, 2013, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2013, 05:53:03 PM
dont waste than poor mans time dragging him back on dec the 27th, u had plenty of time to sort it out and couldnt
He's coming back according to the News this evening.

Coming back to save the day.

More late night carry outs. More talk about being prepared to do what is required to get a deal done.

Blah, blah, blah.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on December 28, 2013, 06:30:30 AM
Somethings happening.. Its big news in uk bbc.. Also alot of gerry quotes.. Adams seems to have gained alot of street cred since his mandela funeral appearence especially in uk media
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 28, 2013, 02:23:28 PM
Asked if this was his final effort, Dr Haass used an American phrase: "You either fish or you cut bait." He said that time had come.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 31, 2013, 12:14:45 AM
The talks deadline has been further extended with Richard Haas saying that the talks are going down to the wire.

Where is this wire ?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on December 31, 2013, 04:21:00 AM
So, surprise surprise, the Hass talks have ended without agreement. The gobshites on the hill should be ashamed of themselves. Then again, shame is not normally associated wirh them. Another waste of our money, and another embarrassment.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on December 31, 2013, 09:26:46 AM
They're going to continue to talk thank God. All is not lost.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on December 31, 2013, 09:37:49 AM
I wonder who they will need to come in and hold their hand when they continue to "talk", since they can't be relied upon to do it themselves.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2013, 10:50:56 AM
Going by Mallie's report on RTE News this morning it seems Peter didn't want to step ahead of the 17th Century neanderthals as Unionists wanted no restrictions on flying their Union flag, no applying for permits for parades, no Tricolours anywhere,  only IRA "actions" to be investigated and opposed to immunity for (obviously republican) info suppliers.
Once more Unionists show themselves incapable of understanding politics, the real world or how modern States work.
It proves once again that the 6 Cos. is not ever going to be a ~"normal" place so time for Cameron to start telling them a few home truths.( like Census figures e.g).
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: red hander on December 31, 2013, 04:03:35 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on December 31, 2013, 04:21:00 AM
So, surprise surprise, the Hass talks have ended without agreement. The gobshites on the hill should be ashamed of themselves. Then again, shame is not normally associated wirh them. Another waste of our money, and another embarrassment.

+1 Bulldoze the big white elephant into the ground with all 108 of the feckers still in it ... and reverse the tracks back over it just to make sure we got Nelson McCausland
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 31, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on December 28, 2013, 06:30:30 AM
Somethings happening.. Its big news in uk bbc.. Also alot of gerry quotes.. Adams seems to have gained alot of street cred since his mandela funeral appearence especially in uk media

Both delusional and indicates your true global viewpoint, sure it's better to care what London thinks than Dublin eh  ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on December 31, 2013, 07:24:07 PM
It is long past time for US diplomats to desist from involving themselves in what essentially is a British Government problem,namely unionist/protestant sectarianism in a gerrymandered and undemocratic state.The British who retain ultimate sovereignty should be pressurised by the US,Europe and in particular their fawning lapdogs in the 26 counties to deal with this problem forthwith.Instead the President will tr**p over to Buckingham Palace in April to be treated like one of her majesty's corgis (only with less intelligence) amid a backdrop of Downing Street piffle about Anglo Irish relations being better than ever, with the gobshites in Kildare Street polishing their haloes and swallowing all this guff.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on December 31, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.
A few of us in that boat, thanks to Our Friends in the South. Happy new year to staters everywhere.  ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on December 31, 2013, 09:13:24 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on December 31, 2013, 07:24:07 PM
It is long past time for US diplomats to desist from involving themselves in what essentially is a British Government problem,namely unionist/protestant sectarianism in a gerrymandered and undemocratic state.The British who retain ultimate sovereignty should be pressurised by the US,Europe and in particular their fawning lapdogs in the 26 counties to deal with this problem forthwith.Instead the President will tr**p over to Buckingham Palace in April to be treated like one of her majesty's corgis (only with less intelligence) amid a backdrop of Downing Street piffle about Anglo Irish relations being better than ever, with the gobshites in Kildare Street polishing their haloes and swallowing all this guff.
Obviously you got out the wrong side of the bed this morning  :-[
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?

He lives in the six counties.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 31, 2013, 09:33:32 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 31, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.
A few of us in that boat, thanks to Our Friends in the South. Happy new year to staters everywhere.  ;)

Whats your problem with Munster people?

At least you are not blaming us in the West and East.

Up the Republic, the only one on the island of Ireland, the one ruled from Dublin  ;)

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2013, 09:46:17 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on December 31, 2013, 09:33:32 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on December 31, 2013, 07:59:07 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.
A few of us in that boat, thanks to Our Friends in the South. Happy new year to staters everywhere.  ;)

Whats your problem with Munster people?

At least you are not blaming us in the West and East.

Up the Republic, the only one on the island of Ireland, the one ruled from Dublin  ;)
Germany/Dublin you mean
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on December 31, 2013, 09:48:16 PM
haas talks.. haas walks. nothing happened. unionists will be happy.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?


He lives in the six counties.

So? I presume Tony is not in favour of a monarchy of any kind so how is she Tony's queen?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:56:43 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?


He lives in the six counties.

So? I presume Tony is not in favour of a monarchy of any kind so how is she Tony's queen?

It's nothing to do with what you are in favour of. His taxes keep her in the style she is accustomed to. I suppose Westminster isn't where his government sits ?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 10:21:14 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:56:43 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?


He lives in the six counties.

So? I presume Tony is not in favour of a monarchy of any kind so how is she Tony's queen?

It's nothing to do with what you are in favour of. His taxes keep her in the style she is accustomed to. I suppose Westminster isn't where his government sits ?

I've no idea what taxes Tony pays,if any? Tony might think his government sits in Dublin or Stormont for that matter. Still doesn't make her Tony's queen. 
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2014, 12:53:14 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:56:43 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 09:54:43 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on December 31, 2013, 09:25:14 PM
Quote from: reddgnhand on December 31, 2013, 08:06:49 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on December 31, 2013, 07:51:31 PM
Tony, you seem to have a very high opinion of your Queen and her dogs. Michael D is only going over for a visit, he'll not stay long.

Unlike yourself who has spent his entire life under her rule.  Have a happy new year.

And how is she Tony's queen?


He lives in the six counties.

So? I presume Tony is not in favour of a monarchy of any kind so how is she Tony's queen?

It's nothing to do with what you are in favour of. His taxes keep her in the style she is accustomed to. I suppose Westminster isn't where his government sits ?
The taxes paid by Our Friends in the South keep a lot of French and German speculators in the manner to which they've become accustomed - what's your point?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on January 01, 2014, 01:00:24 AM
Point is that USA should not be constantly called upon to solve the six county situation whether GFA basically grantssovereignty of the area to Britain in consultation with the Dublin govt
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: never kickt a ball on January 01, 2014, 01:57:50 AM
So, no agreement with the talks Haas holds  8)

http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/haass.pdf
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: JUst retired on January 01, 2014, 07:18:38 AM
 Did any sane person expect any agreement in these talks? The nationalists parties seem to be willing to compromise,as do the Alliance. But the rest-no chance. The Irish and British governments should take the bull by the horns and impose their collective will on the place.
Will we ever see the agenda or agendas that were debated?
I dont think so. Treat us like mushrooms Keep us in the dark and feed us sh*te. :o
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: seafoid on January 01, 2014, 07:46:19 AM
There must be a serious Unionist brain drain going on in the background. In the old days the educated ones were able to put smacht on their brethren. "No no no" is a poor old negotiating tactic as well.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 08:27:48 AM
Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: seafoid on January 01, 2014, 09:30:11 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 08:27:48 AM
Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?
I think the flegs are a sign of a fairly serious identity crisis. Politicians can do stuff like roads and hospitals but identity is much harder.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 09:44:36 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 01, 2014, 09:30:11 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 08:27:48 AM
Ian senior is in hospital at the minute. He might do a deal when he comes out.

UUP don't know what to do and the DUP have decided that instead of constantly saying no, that the best course of action is to string this so called process out to forever and a day.

It's working for them so why change course when you don't have to ?
I think the flegs are a sign of a fairly serious identity crisis. Politicians can do stuff like roads and hospitals but identity is much harder.

Yes and the cajoling and encouragement by successive American and other governments have still not changed the unionist view on flegs and parades.

Looking at the Haas document that has been published there's some blah blah blah in it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:40:07 AM
the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substancially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffitti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 01, 2014, 11:47:07 AM
You'd need some definition of a flag, otherwise GAA type decorations would be illegal when someone reaches an AI etc. Likewise it should be possible to decorate for the Giro.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 12:06:36 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 01, 2014, 11:47:07 AM
You'd need some definition of a flag, otherwise GAA type decorations would be illegal when someone reaches an AI etc. Likewise it should be possible to decorate for the Giro.
from your "own" property all flags are legal for limited periods eg Armagh flags from the start of the championship until its over
in countrys like Denmark Germany homeowners have a proper flag pole outside their house. I would have no objection to this provided its time limited.

what I'm saying is the plastering of housing estates is unsightly and may not be what all residents want therefore unless you actually own the property you cannot erect a flag/any flag ie the council official flag pole in your area should be enough

telephone poles trees pylons.. all illegal at any time
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 01, 2014, 12:11:47 PM
I still think sporting emblems need to be distinguished from political ones, at the season of the sporting event.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2014, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:40:07 AM
the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substancially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffitti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.
So you're recommending making the Housing Executive / Housing Associations / private landlords responsible for removing any flags that are flown by tenants on their properties? They'll not thank you for that. Keep in mind that the encampment on Twaddell Avenue is on Housing Executive land without the permission of the HE. If that organisation can't remove an illegal camp, how do you expect them to deal with the thousands of flags that go up on their houses every year? Keep in mind too that the man in charge of the Housing Executive is one Nelson McCausland. Can you really see him allowing the HE to take a robust stance against flags flying from houses?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 01, 2014, 01:58:41 PM
The DUP are having problems coming to terms with an impending unionist minority and the resultant taking over of OWC by a broad nationalist majority. This won't necessarily see the demise of the union, but a nationalist first minister and Finance minister is a nightmare scenario for them.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: JUst retired on January 01, 2014, 09:36:12 PM
 Lawnseed,you should have been at the talks .Your sugestions are the most sensible I have seen yet.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 09:51:18 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 01, 2014, 12:15:29 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:40:07 AM
the parades one is simple to solve..

1st. there needs to be guarantors IE individuals within the organisers of these events who need to take responsibility for what ever expense is incurred before, on or after or as a direct result of the event. this should involve the lodgement of a bond or physical asset that will be forfeited in the event of any problems. it should be substantial and punitive eg £50000 or goods to that value.
2nd. there needs to be a police assessment of the security needs for the event and the organisers should have to contribute substantially to the policing of same (like football clubs in uk)

these two simple rules are sufficient to bring clarity as to where the organisers of public events stand when they set about bringing thousands of people on to the streets.

simple and straight forward.

as for flags no problem there either..

(1) flags can only be flown from the owner of the flags 'own' property ie property to which he holds title/deeds eg his house or business. ***NOT WHERE HE PAYS RENT*** (only for limited periods by government agreement London/Dublin not stormont )

all other flags can only be flown from single official flag pole ie council owned. one flag pole in each area/townland /village by consent of the majority of home owners/rate payers in that area. it maybe that they do not wish to have an official pole in that case all flags erected [not (1)] on any property will be deemed illegal and removed immediately by the owner with fines imposed on the owner of the land/property if they fail to comply.

(2) occasionally there maybe decisions made by councils to allow deviation from flag protocol ie royal/papal visit etc during a limited period additional flags bunting maybe erected after which time flags must be removed by the owner of properties to which they are attached.. failure to comply will result in fines being imposed.

there is no property that I know of that doesn't have an owner it is the owners responsibility to remove any illegal flags/murals/graffiti and the psni should assist should they need assistance with full force and without prejudice.

should the owner of a property wish to fly a flag pertaining to his business ie shell or Texaco planning should be sought form the council and limited time periods should still apply.

basically we should get to a place where the flying of a flag/any flag is really noticeable and questionable. people should talk about its validity and be aware of its legality/legitimacy.
So you're recommending making the Housing Executive / Housing Associations / private landlords responsible for removing any flags that are flown by tenants on their properties? They'll not thank you for that. Keep in mind that the encampment on Twaddell Avenue is on Housing Executive land without the permission of the HE. If that organisation can't remove an illegal camp, how do you expect them to deal with the thousands of flags that go up on their houses every year? Keep in mind too that the man in charge of the Housing Executive is one Nelson McCausland. Can you really see him allowing the HE to take a robust stance against flags flying from houses?
yes and yes. the prohibition of the flying of flags can be a clause written into the rental agreement by law. "cant remove an illegal camp"?? what do you mean cant? how did the English police deal with the traveller camp in the south of England.. they did it because they were ordered to do it. as regards nelson as I said this should be a law passed by London end of.

the point behind my suggestion is that it is easy to sneak down the road in the dark or put on a mask and litter the place with flags.. paramilitary flags.. offensive flags.. but it is unlikely that anyone would hang a eg uvf flag on their OWN property. there needs to be times allotted to flag flying a sort of 'flag season' outside that period unless by special official agreement/permission its illegal
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.
there is a well paid police force here to aid property owner to remove illegal flags from their property and courts to fine those who don't comply. how are rates collected? how are fines collected? you either tackle the problem or it continues..

feel free to suggest an alternative   
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 11:53:48 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.
there is a well paid police force here to aid property owner to remove illegal flags from their property and courts to fine those who don't comply. how are rates collected? how are fines collected? you either tackle the problem or it continues..

feel free to suggest an alternative

Well paid alright. But for whatever reason don't tackle different groupings with the same vigour. That needs to change.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on January 02, 2014, 06:36:53 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.
there is a well paid police force here to aid property owner to remove illegal flags from their property and courts to fine those who don't comply. how are rates collected? how are fines collected? you either tackle the problem or it continues..

feel free to suggest an alternative
Wise up. The Housing Executive owns about 90,000 properties, the Housing Associations about another 30,000. Say, for talks sake, about half of these are tenanted by people from the PUL community. Already, in any given summer, a good few thousand of this 60,000 stick flags outside their house. Throw into the mix a ban on doing so and what would happen? Tens of thousands of flags would go up. Explain to me then what the PSNI are supposed to do faced with such a scenario. Do you expect them to go in to areas like Rathcoole and Ballybeen and Shankill and physically remove each and every flag from each and every property? Or would they instead just drive about taking photos of each and every flag with a view to sending a case to the PPS? How do you think the courts would process these thousands of offenders? And what would happen when they all, inevitably, refused to pay the fine imposed on them for, as they see it, having the temerity to fly the flag of their country from outside their home?

If you look around, you'll see that there are already plenty of illegal murals and commemorations to various fallen 'heroes' dotted around the place, in both nationalist and loyalist areas. Nothing is done about these, because the authorities know that to try and enforce the rule of law against the will of a local community is to greatly worsen the situation. They try to deal with them through mediation and negotiation. Doesn't always work, of course, but then neither would criminalising vast swathes of the population.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: JUst retired on January 02, 2014, 08:30:31 AM
 So then we all fly flags on our houses,at least that will make the place colourful.
When they wanted to remove 1 flag in the late sixties on the Falls road road it didnt take them too long to do it. Bring back the RUC they are the boys ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 02, 2014, 10:10:33 AM
Back to direct rule....the clowns on the hill couldn't run a bath!!
People are worried about jobs, health and education and these morons are arguing over a flag....time for the brits to restore order ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: johnneycool on January 02, 2014, 10:30:42 AM
With the soundbites from Mike Nesbitt the other day, its not hard to see that he's aligning the Ulster Unionist party as a DUP lite.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 02, 2014, 10:44:37 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 02, 2014, 06:36:53 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 01, 2014, 11:21:30 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 01, 2014, 10:46:58 PM
Who is going to enforce breaches of the flegs law ? The present law enforcement agency would be useful.
there is a well paid police force here to aid property owner to remove illegal flags from their property and courts to fine those who don't comply. how are rates collected? how are fines collected? you either tackle the problem or it continues..

feel free to suggest an alternative
Wise up. The Housing Executive owns about 90,000 properties, the Housing Associations about another 30,000. Say, for talks sake, about half of these are tenanted by people from the PUL community. Already, in any given summer, a good few thousand of this 60,000 stick flags outside their house. Throw into the mix a ban on doing so and what would happen? Tens of thousands of flags would go up. Explain to me then what the PSNI are supposed to do faced with such a scenario. Do you expect them to go in to areas like Rathcoole and Ballybeen and Shankill and physically remove each and every flag from each and every property? Or would they instead just drive about taking photos of each and every flag with a view to sending a case to the PPS? How do you think the courts would process these thousands of offenders? And what would happen when they all, inevitably, refused to pay the fine imposed on them for, as they see it, having the temerity to fly the flag of their country from outside their home?

If you look around, you'll see that there are already plenty of illegal murals and commemorations to various fallen 'heroes' dotted around the place, in both nationalist and loyalist areas. Nothing is done about these, because the authorities know that to try and enforce the rule of law against the will of a local community is to greatly worsen the situation. They try to deal with them through mediation and negotiation. Doesn't always work, of course, but then neither would criminalising vast swathes of the population.
yeah.. I'll wise up when I read your plausible alternative.

its possible to fine householders for not burning smokeless coal.. fining them for fly a flag with a couple of photos of their flag would seem a lot easier. if they don't pay it then take it out of their benefits. lets see whether they're loyal to the crown of the pown

as regards murals if planning is sought and granted without objection.. no problem paint away.. the owner of the property needs to contribute something toward its up keep and maybe pay more rates
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 02, 2014, 10:54:17 AM
Getting rid of centuries of institutionalised bias and discrimination on both sides will be easier said than done never mind enforced.

I know your examples about rates collection agency and planning department are sound in principle but in practice they're not exactly like for like.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 02, 2014, 11:39:36 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 02, 2014, 10:54:17 AM
Getting rid of centuries of institutionalised bias and discrimination on both sides will be easier said than done never mind enforced.

I know your examples about rates collection agency and planning department are sound in principle but in practice they're not exactly like for like.

well the alternative is to just keep on at what we are doing.. unless someone has a better idea.. I'm all ears..
do you know that England is booming and I mean booming. but for the fact that the place is coming down with foreign workers the place would come to a standstill. for now and as part of the uk I'm looking for signs of that boom coming here and I don't see it.. I passed a brand new industrial estate near Birmingham a couple of months ago the billboard read 2550 new jobs coming soon apply now www... No business is going to bring that kind of investment here with the shite that goes on here. I have kids I want to see them grow up here and get work here not Skype them.
I fukn sick of this shite and but for the mrs I'd pull the plug on nordieland in seconds. d**kheads here think this is a great place- its not. you can talk it up as much as you like the football.. the hurling.. the scenery.. bullshit can you eat a hurly stick or a flag try it.

I know a lad whos working in England hes not smart but hes a good worker he had 900 the week before Christmas and yer man gave him 900 as a bonus.. he drives a digger fer fuksake.. guys here cant get 300 a week doing the same job.

MAYBE and it is maybe if this place was a bit more civilised we could get some of these companies to give us- even a portion of their jobs.. just a wee bit- a hundred jobs around here would make a serious difference. these pricks fighting with the police are all people think about when they look at the map. IT HAAS TO CHANGE
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lynchbhoy on January 02, 2014, 11:47:33 AM
the issues were never gong to obtain agreement on from unionist/loyalist side -they couldnt be seen byt their electorate to agree withanything as the unionist/loyalists are already unhappy with too many 'concessions' (equality) being made
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 02, 2014, 11:53:44 AM
if I were dandy dave I'd tell them no agreement no fukn cheque!! see if they resign. haas is working for nothing persay lets see if our crowd will do the same.
no more messing bring this to a head now
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 02, 2014, 10:10:29 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 02, 2014, 11:53:44 AM
if I were dandy dave I'd tell them no agreement no fukn cheque!! see if they resign. haas is working for nothing persay lets see if our crowd will do the same.
no more messing bring this to a head now

LS. You're talking and making a lot of sense and fully understand your frustrations. I think the no agreement no cheque one has been threatened a few times but those with this often cited mandate know they can take it to the wire and beyond cos they've called the governments' bluffs a few times and won. So they're like the smart child who knows that the parents might shout at them but they'll never take the stick out even though they say they're going to.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on January 06, 2014, 02:02:10 PM
I see unionists didnt agree to the Haas Proposals after consultation with Willie Frazier & Jamie Bryson!? Holy F**k, heard it all now.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: deiseach on January 06, 2014, 02:07:44 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 06, 2014, 02:02:10 PM
I see unionists didnt agree to the Haas Proposals after consultation with Willie Frazier & Jamie Bryson!? Holy F**k, heard it all now.

Is that just something the dogs on the street are saying or is it official?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: imtommygunn on January 06, 2014, 02:14:24 PM
Yeah - is that official?

I'd like to think unionists, as bad as they are, aren't listening to those 2 loonies. Them boys should be fading into obscurity soon enough but if this is true that may no happen or happen so quickly anyway :-(
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on January 06, 2014, 02:19:22 PM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/unionists-afraid-to-ratify-a-haass-deal-without-us-claim-hardliners-29891067.html
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: deiseach on January 06, 2014, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on January 06, 2014, 02:19:22 PM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/unionists-afraid-to-ratify-a-haass-deal-without-us-claim-hardliners-29891067.html

Mandy Rice Davies would have something to say about that ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: imtommygunn on January 06, 2014, 03:01:56 PM
Ah, they claimed it...

I'm not sure that makes it a fact!!

They will no doubt lose votes somewhere but I would doubt it will be to those guys. The question is where to though. They have got rid of the alliance party anyway with their stirring up of the whole flag thing.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Over the Bar on January 06, 2014, 03:04:27 PM
QuoteAh, they claimed it...

No, Jamie cwaimed it!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 06, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
There really is no talking to Unionists, they just don't get this whole notion of parity and equality. I even heard one elected representative from the DUP compare the nationalist community here to ethnic minorities in post war Europe. Says it all.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 07, 2014, 08:52:20 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 06, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
There really is no talking to Unionists, they just don't get this whole notion of parity and equality. I even heard one elected representative from the DUP compare the nationalist community here to ethnic minorities in post war Europe. Says it all.
+1 they just dont get it
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: imtommygunn on January 07, 2014, 08:56:06 AM
So they talked to Fraser but not Bryson.

I don't know which is worse...
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 07, 2014, 09:56:14 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 07, 2014, 08:52:20 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 06, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
There really is no talking to Unionists, they just don't get this whole notion of parity and equality. I even heard one elected representative from the DUP compare the nationalist community here to ethnic minorities in post war Europe. Says it all.
+1 they just dont get it

This is too easy to say. They fully understand the concept and will invoke it parts where there are in a minority. But they won the Battle of Boyne and so croppies should lie down so they have no use for the concept.

I suspect there must be some moderate unionist opinion that has no great love of marches etc who might think the Haas proposals have merit and who will now find NI21 a better home than the DUP-lite UU.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 07, 2014, 09:59:18 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2014, 08:56:06 AM
So they talked to Fraser but not Bryson.

I don't know which is worse...
Talking to wullie now? When baby oil berry got dumped for getting a massage. Wullie tried to get a dup thumbs up. Big ian dismissed him as a looney bin and now the dup are seeking his "input". Crazy stuff obvious the fleg brigade handful of votes are more important to robbo than the votes of those catholic unnionists he talked about or he'd make a call
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on January 07, 2014, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 06, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
There really is no talking to Unionists, they just don't get this whole notion of parity and equality. I even heard one elected representative from the DUP compare the nationalist community here to ethnic minorities in post war Europe. Says it all.

Could you put up a link to that? A quote like that is dynamite.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: imtommygunn on January 07, 2014, 10:23:49 AM
Is Mike Nesbitt the worst UUP leader in history?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 07, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2014, 10:23:49 AM
Is Mike Nesbitt the worst UUP leader in history?

He should have stuck to presenting the news.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 07, 2014, 11:04:01 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 07, 2014, 10:04:58 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 06, 2014, 04:16:04 PM
There really is no talking to Unionists, they just don't get this whole notion of parity and equality. I even heard one elected representative from the DUP compare the nationalist community here to ethnic minorities in post war Europe. Says it all.

Could you put up a link to that? A quote like that is dynamite.
It was on Radio Ulster I can't remember exactly who it was, I don't want to name him in case I get it wrong. He was speaking around the Flags issue and the tricolour. He basically said that the European Convention on Human rights gauranteed the rights of all minorities trapped within the boundaries of another state, but didn't give their national flag any special status. He mentioned Russians in the Baltic states as and example He said a bit more but I for one resent being referred to an ethnic minority within my own land. If you were to apply that logic then surely the descendants of the planters are the ethnic minority that equate to said Russians.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 07, 2014, 11:05:43 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 07, 2014, 10:54:09 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 07, 2014, 10:23:49 AM
Is Mike Nesbitt the worst UUP leader in history?

He should have stuck to presenting the news.
A total tit, as a politician you should never state absolutes that can be quoted back at you. He has no more control over the UUP than Trimble or Empey had.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on January 07, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Nesbitt is no worse than the dick they had before
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 07, 2014, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 07, 2014, 09:36:36 PM
Nesbitt is no worse than the dick they had before


Tom had a great accent all the same. I can just imagine him saying " so you're for a match ? - pull over there."
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 07, 2014, 11:08:06 PM
QuoteNesbitt is no worse than the dick they had before

The previous incumbent was traditional bigot, Nesbitt is a new age bigot.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.

I'm talking about real politics....not flags and parades.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 08, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.

I'm talking about real politics....not flags and parades.
Flags, parades and indenity matter to many, just because they don't matter to you does not make them less important. With regards to the economy, health etc Stormont will never be able to effect any change or influence until the former is settled.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 08, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.

I'm talking about real politics....not flags and parades.
Flags, parades and indenity matter to many, just because they don't matter to you does not make them less important. With regards to the economy, health etc Stormont will never be able to effect any change or influence until the former is settled.

So are you saying that the flying of the union flag, parading where you are not wanted etc are on a par with bed/nurse/doctor shortages, education cuts and the economy. If Cameron had any balls he would pull the rug from under them and implement direct rule. The gobshites at Stormont have proved from the signing of the GFA that they are not fit for purpose.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: imtommygunn on January 08, 2014, 05:25:38 PM
Unless they do something about flags and parades then there won't be the money to spend in important areas as it will be being spent on policing and not health care etc where it should be.

The money spent policing parades and flag protests over the last number of years - last year in paritcular - is disgusting and could have been put to so much better use.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 07:21:56 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.
If i'm not mistaken, Alliance wouldn't support all the proposals because they didn't go far enough. And to an extent, they're right - the content on flags, for example, is a fudge - even if all 5 parties had signed up, there was no actual agreement for action, just for further talking.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 07:30:27 PM
Playing 'devil's advocate' here, but do SF or the SDLP deserve many plaudits for endorsing Haass? I've at a read at the proposals and it's hard to see where they've really compromised - it would be difficult to understand if they had rejected it - is there anything in it that creates real difficulties for nationalists or republicans? I fully acknowledge that the Unionists are the ones who need to compromise more than SF or the SDLP on some of these issues.

Also, not sure that this attitude of 'no more negotiation' is appropriate. There's no point in talking about 'implementation' before there's agreement. If the answer is more negotiation, then so be it. Until all 5 parties are on board, endorsement by 2 parties is largely irrelevant. It makes SF and the SDLP look reasonable and the unionist look unreasonable, but it moves nothing forward.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 08, 2014, 08:02:00 PM
QuoteI fully acknowledge that the Unionists are the ones who need to compromise more than SF or the SDLP on some of these issues.

Do you, really?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: bennydorano on January 08, 2014, 08:05:39 PM
This 'country' is just an embarrasment. I have truely given up on it, i'll never vote again.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Main Street on January 08, 2014, 08:17:37 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 07:30:27 PM
Playing 'devil's advocate' here, but do SF or the SDLP deserve many plaudits for endorsing Haass? I've at a read at the proposals and it's hard to see where they've really compromised - it would be difficult to understand if they had rejected it - is there anything in it that creates real difficulties for nationalists or republicans? I fully acknowledge that the Unionists are the ones who need to compromise more than SF or the SDLP on some of these issues.
Maybe you should play something else and just express your own opinions.

QuoteAlso, not sure that this attitude of 'no more negotiation' is appropriate. There's no point in talking about 'implementation' before there's agreement. If the answer is more negotiation, then so be it. Until all 5 parties are on board, endorsement by 2 parties is largely irrelevant. .
I don't know what the devil's lawyer is saying but the talk I have heard about was acting on the points that have already been agreed upon. I haven't heard about acting on points which have not been agreed upon.

QuoteIt makes SF and the SDLP look reasonable and the unionist look unreasonable
,
Do you think SF or the SDLP actually have to do anything in order to make the Unionists look unreasonable?
Did the ANC make the Afrikaner conservatives look unreasonable?

Quotebut it moves nothing forward
Moving forward  is a 2013 expression, let's not flog a dead horse here and drag it into 2014 :)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on January 08, 2014, 08:22:57 PM
What is story with Alliance? They seem to generally welcome Haas but have "some reservations". What are these?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 08:30:09 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 08, 2014, 08:02:00 PM
QuoteI fully acknowledge that the Unionists are the ones who need to compromise more than SF or the SDLP on some of these issues.

Do you, really?
No, I don't. i was just trying to convince you.  :-[
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 08:35:22 PM
Quote from: Main Street on January 08, 2014, 08:17:37 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on January 08, 2014, 07:30:27 PM
Playing 'devil's advocate' here, but do SF or the SDLP deserve many plaudits for endorsing Haass? I've at a read at the proposals and it's hard to see where they've really compromised - it would be difficult to understand if they had rejected it - is there anything in it that creates real difficulties for nationalists or republicans? I fully acknowledge that the Unionists are the ones who need to compromise more than SF or the SDLP on some of these issues.
Maybe you should play something else and just express your own opinions.

QuoteAlso, not sure that this attitude of 'no more negotiation' is appropriate. There's no point in talking about 'implementation' before there's agreement. If the answer is more negotiation, then so be it. Until all 5 parties are on board, endorsement by 2 parties is largely irrelevant. .
I don't know what the devil's lawyer is saying but the talk I have heard about was acting on the points that have already been agreed upon. I haven't heard about acting on points which have not been agreed upon.

QuoteIt makes SF and the SDLP look reasonable and the unionist look unreasonable
,
Do you think SF or the SDLP actually have to do anything in order to make the Unionists look unreasonable?
Did the ANC make the Afrikaner conservatives look unreasonable?

Quotebut it moves nothing forward
Moving forward  is a 2013 expression, let's not flog a dead horse here and drag it into 2014 :)
Take it as my opinion then, if you wish.

As for implementing what has been agreed - it's hard to make a call on that when we don't know what the sticking points are. Maybe there's no full agreement on any individual items, in which case, nothing can be implemented. It might have been better if Haass had issued 3 sets of proposals for each of the 3 issues, to see if there was any chance of agreement on any single strand of the negotiations.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 09, 2014, 09:02:54 AM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 05:21:40 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 08, 2014, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 04:43:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 08, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 08, 2014, 09:43:13 AM
The sad reality is that no matter what happens SF and DUP will still be elected. The only party interested in real politics appears to be Alliance....but they are powerless.
Flags, parades and the past.....instead of jobs, health, education and the economy.
Only I'm past my sell by date I'd get the fcuk out of this shithole!

How do you work that out when the SDLP and SF were the only two parties who accepted the proposals.

I'm talking about real politics....not flags and parades.
Flags, parades and indemnity matter to many, just because they don't matter to you does not make them less important. With regards to the economy, health etc Stormont will never be able to effect any change or influence until the former is settled.

So are you saying that the flying of the union flag, parading where you are not wanted etc are on a par with bed/nurse/doctor shortages, education cuts and the economy. If Cameron had any balls he would pull the rug from under them and implement direct rule. The gobshites at Stormont have proved from the signing of the GFA that they are not fit for purpose.
No what I am saying is that unless the political parties but more importantly the people in this part of the world can settle these issues to everyone's satisfaction, then the powers necessary to really tackle these other issues will not be devolved. The DUP for one would resit on the basis that it is a further dilution of the union. It will also mean the continued waste of millions on dealing with disputes riots etc.At the end of the day Stormont as it is has no real power it is doling out handouts.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 09, 2014, 09:07:17 AM
The sticking points are what they have always been. Ntionalists are terrorists, everyone else is good, natinalists caused it all, there is only one identity that counts ie PUL, conceding any equality or parity to the N/R community weakens the union and British identity.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent! 
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent!

They are top of priorities for most people except you and Willie Frazer.All you talk about is flags,you should join FAiR
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent!

They are top of priorities for most people except you and Willie Frazer.All you talk about is flags,you should join FAiR

Ouch...that really hurt. ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent!

They are top of priorities for most people except you and Willie Frazer.All you talk about is flags,you should join FAiR

Ouch...that really hurt. ;)

no flag?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent!

They are top of priorities for most people except you and Willie Frazer.All you talk about is flags,you should join FAiR

Ouch...that really hurt. ;)

no flag?

Willie using it tonight :D
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:35:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:33:13 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:30:07 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:28:14 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:22:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 07:20:38 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 09, 2014, 07:13:45 PM
Quote from: Count 10 on January 09, 2014, 06:49:56 PM
Today provided ample opportunity for any politician worth his/her salt to state the obvious.....A&E at the Royal last night resembled something out of a third world country.....but fcuk that a flag is more important >:(

You talk some sh1te,how and who said a flag is more important only you?

Why are health, education, jobs and the economy not the top priorities?
As for shite talk....you are fluent!

They are top of priorities for most people except you and Willie Frazer.All you talk about is flags,you should join FAiR

Ouch...that really hurt. ;)

no flag?

Willie using it tonight :D

;D
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: T Fearon on January 09, 2014, 11:32:38 PM
Interesting to see Haass on tv tonight effectively blaming both Unionist parties and Alliance
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on January 10, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 09, 2014, 11:32:38 PM
Interesting to see Haass on tv tonight effectively blaming both Unionist parties and Alliance

He is talking balls sure Maguire and Count 10 know better,its everyones fault the poor Unionists just wanted everything. ???
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on January 10, 2014, 11:21:23 AM
The reality is that there is an impasse at Stormont, flags etc do not prevent Poots from doing his job. The bottom line is SF can't get the DUP to move on anything hence the feeling that nothing is getting done. It is popular to say fcuk flegs what about health, but even before we had these protests etc... health was a mess. £50K a day to police Twaddell would pay for a few Emergency Medicine Specialists and a few extra nurses. One of the biggest issues in health and local government is the numbers of overpaid administrative staff. This is particularly so in health where you have a Chief Executive who can't make clinical decisions, therefore you have a Chief Medical Officer as well...duplication. or should that be DUP-lication.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on January 10, 2014, 04:34:29 PM
Quote from: glens abu on January 10, 2014, 08:39:10 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 09, 2014, 11:32:38 PM
Interesting to see Haass on tv tonight effectively blaming both Unionist parties and Alliance

He is talking balls sure Maguire and Count 10 know better,its everyones fault the poor Unionists just wanted everything. ???
Where exactly did I say it wasn't the unionists' fault?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 11, 2014, 07:10:35 PM
That's the end of it now.

Sinn Féin's ruling executive has formally backed the Haass proposals on parades, flags, and the past.

The negotiations, chaired by former US diplomat Richard Haass, ended on New Year's Eve without agreement.

On Friday, DUP leader Peter Robinson said the Haass plan was unbalanced and required further work.

Sinn Féin and the SDLP have endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

Martin McGuinness spoke to reporters after the party executive met in Dublin
On Saturday in Dublin, Sinn Féin's Ard Chomhairle (national executive) agreed its response to the proposals.

Afterwards, Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams said the proposals were "a compromise position".

The party has called on the British and Irish governments to work with parties towards their implementation of the Haass plan.

Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness said: "We need to hear David Cameron say he supports the Haass proposals, we need to hear the taoiseach say he supports the Haass proposals and, hopefully, we will hear the president of the united States or the White House make it clear that they support the Haass proposals.

"One thing is absolutely clear. Richard Haass is telling the five parties in the north he wants to see the text of his seventh draft implemented
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on January 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Maybe it's not the end at all - money talks.

Haass proposals:

Deal could secure extra money says Villiers


The government would seriously consider any Stormont request for additional resources should the parties reach a deal on flags, parades and the past, Theresa Villiers has said.

US diplomat Richard Haass chaired talks between the NI parties on the three contentious issues.

The secretary of state said she could not give any financial guarantees regarding the stalled Haass proposals.

However, she said she would examine any financial approach from the executive.

"We see the funding of these projects primarily coming from the block grant that the UK government already provides," Ms Villiers said.

"But I've also said that if there's a proposal from the political parties asking for extra funding, then, of course, that will be considered very seriously.

"But I have to be honest, given the deficit we inherited from the previous government and the pressing need to fix the public finances, I can't necessarily promise that additional funding will be available."

The Haass talks broke up without a deal on New Year's Eve.

Two of Northern Ireland's five main parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

The parties have since held more talks about the issues.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons the government would seek to impose a deal on the Northern Ireland parties.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on January 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Maybe it's not the end at all - money talks.

Haass proposals:

Deal could secure extra money says Villiers


The government would seriously consider any Stormont request for additional resources should the parties reach a deal on flags, parades and the past, Theresa Villiers has said.

US diplomat Richard Haass chaired talks between the NI parties on the three contentious issues.

The secretary of state said she could not give any financial guarantees regarding the stalled Haass proposals.

However, she said she would examine any financial approach from the executive.

"We see the funding of these projects primarily coming from the block grant that the UK government already provides," Ms Villiers said.

"But I've also said that if there's a proposal from the political parties asking for extra funding, then, of course, that will be considered very seriously.

"But I have to be honest, given the deficit we inherited from the previous government and the pressing need to fix the public finances, I can't necessarily promise that additional funding will be available."

The Haass talks broke up without a deal on New Year's Eve.

Two of Northern Ireland's five main parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

The parties have since held more talks about the issues.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons the government would seek to impose a deal on the Northern Ireland parties.

Can anyone objectively explain to me why the Alliance Party rejected the proposals please?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on January 25, 2014, 10:11:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Maybe it's not the end at all - money talks.

Haass proposals:

Deal could secure extra money says Villiers


The government would seriously consider any Stormont request for additional resources should the parties reach a deal on flags, parades and the past, Theresa Villiers has said.

US diplomat Richard Haass chaired talks between the NI parties on the three contentious issues.

The secretary of state said she could not give any financial guarantees regarding the stalled Haass proposals.

However, she said she would examine any financial approach from the executive.

"We see the funding of these projects primarily coming from the block grant that the UK government already provides," Ms Villiers said.

"But I've also said that if there's a proposal from the political parties asking for extra funding, then, of course, that will be considered very seriously.

"But I have to be honest, given the deficit we inherited from the previous government and the pressing need to fix the public finances, I can't necessarily promise that additional funding will be available."

The Haass talks broke up without a deal on New Year's Eve.

Two of Northern Ireland's five main parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

The parties have since held more talks about the issues.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons the government would seek to impose a deal on the Northern Ireland parties.

Can anyone objectively explain to me why the Alliance Party rejected the proposals please?

Wrong site muppet
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on January 25, 2014, 10:19:18 PM
Quote from: Minder on January 25, 2014, 10:11:22 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Maybe it's not the end at all - money talks.

Haass proposals:

Deal could secure extra money says Villiers


The government would seriously consider any Stormont request for additional resources should the parties reach a deal on flags, parades and the past, Theresa Villiers has said.

US diplomat Richard Haass chaired talks between the NI parties on the three contentious issues.

The secretary of state said she could not give any financial guarantees regarding the stalled Haass proposals.

However, she said she would examine any financial approach from the executive.

"We see the funding of these projects primarily coming from the block grant that the UK government already provides," Ms Villiers said.

"But I've also said that if there's a proposal from the political parties asking for extra funding, then, of course, that will be considered very seriously.

"But I have to be honest, given the deficit we inherited from the previous government and the pressing need to fix the public finances, I can't necessarily promise that additional funding will be available."

The Haass talks broke up without a deal on New Year's Eve.

Two of Northern Ireland's five main parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

The parties have since held more talks about the issues.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons the government would seek to impose a deal on the Northern Ireland parties.

Can anyone objectively explain to me why the Alliance Party rejected the proposals please?

Wrong site muppet

That is a pity.

I could try to give an objective view of the Mayo football team's chances this year, I might fail but I could try.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 25, 2014, 09:43:52 PM
Quote from: orangeman on January 25, 2014, 01:00:05 PM
Maybe it's not the end at all - money talks.

Haass proposals:

Deal could secure extra money says Villiers


The government would seriously consider any Stormont request for additional resources should the parties reach a deal on flags, parades and the past, Theresa Villiers has said.

US diplomat Richard Haass chaired talks between the NI parties on the three contentious issues.

The secretary of state said she could not give any financial guarantees regarding the stalled Haass proposals.

However, she said she would examine any financial approach from the executive.

"We see the funding of these projects primarily coming from the block grant that the UK government already provides," Ms Villiers said.

"But I've also said that if there's a proposal from the political parties asking for extra funding, then, of course, that will be considered very seriously.

"But I have to be honest, given the deficit we inherited from the previous government and the pressing need to fix the public finances, I can't necessarily promise that additional funding will be available."

The Haass talks broke up without a deal on New Year's Eve.

Two of Northern Ireland's five main parties, Sinn Féin and the SDLP, endorsed the proposals, but the DUP, UUP and Alliance have, so far, rejected elements of the Haass blueprint.

The parties have since held more talks about the issues.

Earlier this week, Prime Minister David Cameron told the House of Commons the government would seek to impose a deal on the Northern Ireland parties.

Can anyone objectively explain to me why the Alliance Party rejected the proposals please?
Alliance hasn't rejected the proposals. It has said that some progress was made on victims and has called on this part to be implemented. On the other two aspects, Alliance has accused the other parties of refusing to engage properly and of a lack of ambition. One example it cites is the refusal of the unionist parties to even consider licensing the flying of flags from lamp posts.
http://allianceparty.org/article/2014/008476/political-leadership-not-political-games-needed-to-make-progress-on-haass-says-alliance
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on January 26, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Alliance hasn't rejected the proposals. It has said that some progress was made on victims and has called on this part to be implemented. On the other two aspects, Alliance has accused the other parties of refusing to engage properly and of a lack of ambition. One example it cites is the refusal of the unionist parties to even consider licensing the flying of flags from lamp posts.
http://allianceparty.org/article/2014/008476/political-leadership-not-political-games-needed-to-make-progress-on-haass-says-alliance

Thanks for the link.

At first glance the Alliance position appears hypocritical and a bit.....em....nuts.

"Chris Lyttle MLA said: "The Alliance position is absolutely clear, and anyone who suggests otherwise is simply playing games. We proposed the Haass process in the first place, and committed ourselves fully throughout."

However now that Haas has concluded, they don't appear to have committed to the proposals.

They seem to claim that as their position is that the proposals on, for example, flags didn't go far enough, they are rejecting this part of the proposals. This is a de facto rejection of the overall process which has concluded.

This appears to me to be ridiculous given that the Nationalists & Republicans have accepted the proposals. They seem to want to re-work parts of Haas, which brings them into line with the very parties they are criticising.

Maybe I am misreading this?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 26, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Alliance hasn't rejected the proposals. It has said that some progress was made on victims and has called on this part to be implemented. On the other two aspects, Alliance has accused the other parties of refusing to engage properly and of a lack of ambition. One example it cites is the refusal of the unionist parties to even consider licensing the flying of flags from lamp posts.
http://allianceparty.org/article/2014/008476/political-leadership-not-political-games-needed-to-make-progress-on-haass-says-alliance

Thanks for the link.

At first glance the Alliance position appears hypocritical and a bit.....em....nuts.

"Chris Lyttle MLA said: "The Alliance position is absolutely clear, and anyone who suggests otherwise is simply playing games. We proposed the Haass process in the first place, and committed ourselves fully throughout."

However now that Haas has concluded, they don't appear to have committed to the proposals.

They seem to claim that as their position is that the proposals on, for example, flags didn't go far enough, they are rejecting this part of the proposals. This is a de facto rejection of the overall process which has concluded.

This appears to me to be ridiculous given that the Nationalists & Republicans have accepted the proposals. They seem to want to re-work parts of Haas, which brings them into line with the very parties they are criticising.

Maybe I am misreading this?
What is there really to implement? The stuff on the past, okay, but Alliance has said this bit should go ahead. There was absolutely no agreement or movement on flags, so nothing to do there. On parades, there was some agreement on setting up an alternative body to the parades commission, but does replacing one body with a different one designed to do the same thing really constitute some sort of progress? I think Alliance felt that by endorsing the outcome, they would be colluding in something of a con, that they would be supporting the idea that the talks had actually achieved something, when in reality they achieved little.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on January 26, 2014, 06:10:21 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 06:08:04 PM
Quote from: muppet on January 26, 2014, 04:48:52 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on January 26, 2014, 04:02:38 PM
Alliance hasn't rejected the proposals. It has said that some progress was made on victims and has called on this part to be implemented. On the other two aspects, Alliance has accused the other parties of refusing to engage properly and of a lack of ambition. One example it cites is the refusal of the unionist parties to even consider licensing the flying of flags from lamp posts.
http://allianceparty.org/article/2014/008476/political-leadership-not-political-games-needed-to-make-progress-on-haass-says-alliance

Thanks for the link.

At first glance the Alliance position appears hypocritical and a bit.....em....nuts.

"Chris Lyttle MLA said: "The Alliance position is absolutely clear, and anyone who suggests otherwise is simply playing games. We proposed the Haass process in the first place, and committed ourselves fully throughout."

However now that Haas has concluded, they don't appear to have committed to the proposals.

They seem to claim that as their position is that the proposals on, for example, flags didn't go far enough, they are rejecting this part of the proposals. This is a de facto rejection of the overall process which has concluded.

This appears to me to be ridiculous given that the Nationalists & Republicans have accepted the proposals. They seem to want to re-work parts of Haas, which brings them into line with the very parties they are criticising.

Maybe I am misreading this?
What is there really to implement? The stuff on the past, okay, but Alliance has said this bit should go ahead. There was absolutely no agreement or movement on flags, so nothing to do there. On parades, there was some agreement on setting up an alternative body to the parades commission, but does replacing one body with a different one designed to do the same thing really constitute some sort of progress? I think Alliance felt that by endorsing the outcome, they would be colluding in something of a con, that they would be supporting the idea that the talks had actually achieved something, when in reality they achieved little.

Sometimes a process concludes with 'much done, more to do'.

They can accept the findings and start work on the next step.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on February 24, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The Haas talks cost £243k, £132k on "travel and accommodation".

Sure it's only a bit of craic.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on February 25, 2014, 12:25:58 AM
Quote from: Minder on February 24, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The Haas talks cost £243k, £132k on "travel and accommodation".

Sure it's only a bit of craic.

Aye only a bit of crack.

Keep that train rolling on down the tracks.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on February 25, 2014, 12:28:33 AM
Quote from: Minder on February 24, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The Haas talks cost £243k, £132k on "travel and accommodation".

Sure it's only a bit of craic.

The sooner the party on the hill is stopped the better.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 25, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 25, 2014, 12:28:33 AM
Quote from: Minder on February 24, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The Haas talks cost £243k, £132k on "travel and accommodation".

Sure it's only a bit of craic.

The sooner the party on the hill is stopped the better.
Too many sucking at the teat for anything to happen now. Stuck with it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on February 25, 2014, 12:33:52 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 25, 2014, 12:32:53 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 25, 2014, 12:28:33 AM
Quote from: Minder on February 24, 2014, 09:40:41 PM
The Haas talks cost £243k, £132k on "travel and accommodation".

Sure it's only a bit of craic.

The sooner the party on the hill is stopped the better.
Too many sucking at the teat for anything to happen now. Stuck with it.

This train isn't for stopping. It can't afford to stop.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on February 25, 2014, 12:38:20 AM
Exactly folks. There is too much money coming from the British teat in Downing street for anyone to stop sucking and say hey, hold on a moment.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on February 25, 2014, 09:26:59 AM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 25, 2014, 12:38:20 AM
Exactly folks. There is too much money coming from the British teat in Downing street for anyone to stop sucking and say hey, hold on a moment.

Sure you can gather up all your support and put a big hole in it in May by voting all the 1798 men in to the councils ???
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 25, 2014, 05:22:37 PM
Dealing With The Past??...

Judge Rules That Alleged Hyde Park Bomber Should Not Stand Trial

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/feb/25/ira-hyde-park-bombing-1982-attack-john-downey

A man accused of murdering four soldiers in an IRA bomb attack in London's Hyde Park in 1982 has walked free from court after a judge ruled his trial should not go ahead because of British government assurances he received under the Good Friday peace agreement.

John Anthony Downey, 62, from County Donegal, had pleaded not guilty to the murder of four soldiers from the Household Cavalry who died in the blast on 20 July 1982 along with seven of their horses.

The bomb had been concealed in a car and was detonated as the soldiers rode past on ceremonial duties.

The case against Downey is understood to have relied heavily on disputed fingerprint evidence from car parks where the car was parked before the attack.

Downey's lawyers argued that he should not face trial because he was one of 187 IRA suspects who had been sent letters giving "a clear and unequivocal assurance" that they were no longer wanted by any police force in the UK. The assurance had been given by the British government in return for the IRA's promise to decommission its arms. During the Old Bailey hearings, the prosecution argued that there was evidence that Downey's letter had been sent in error.

The families of the bombing victims said they felt "devastatingly let down" after the prosecution collapsed.

The relatives of the Household Cavalry soldiers Corporal-Major Roy Bright, Lieutenant Anthony "Denis" Daly, Trooper Simon Tipper and Lance-Corporal Jeffrey Young said they "never ceased in their desire to see that justice be done".

In a statement, they said there had been a "monumental blunder" behind the judgment that lay "at the feet of the Police Service of Northern Ireland".

"The end result is that ... the full chain of those terrible events will never be put in the public domain for justice to be seen to be done. The torment for the families will be ongoing, knowing that John Downey will be returning to his family and life will be normal for him.

"Our men signed up to serve their country in good faith, yet now it seems that that faith was not supported by those within certain areas of authority. The families now seek a degree of accountability for this catastrophic failure. Two opportunities are known where the error in the issuing of this letter could have been raised, yet nothing was done. Had such an error been raised, it is recognised as being of such importance that it would immediately have required action and would not have gone uncorrected. However, on both occasions nothing was done."

Last week, at the Old Bailey in London, Mr Justice Sweeney ruled that the need to prosecute those accused of serious crime was outweighed by "the public interest in holding officials of the state to promises they have made in full understanding of what is involved in the bargain".

After a meeting on Tuesday morning with Dominic Grieve, the attorney general, the prosecution told the high court in London it would not appeal against the ruling, and reporting restrictions were lifted.

Downey is accused of planting the bomb, which exploded as soldiers from the Blues and Royals were riding in full regalia on their daily route from their barracks to Buckingham Palace.

Daly, 23, Tipper, 19, and Young, 19, died instantly, while Bright, 36, died of his injuries three days later.

Two hours later, a second bomb exploded under a bandstand two miles away in Regent's Park, killing seven soldiers with the Royal Green Jackets band.

The devices were among a series of IRA bombs that exploded in London over a four-year period, killing 20 people and injuring almost 200. The Hyde Park blast caused particular outrage, not just because of the human casualties but because of the deaths of the horses. Sefton, a horse that survived, was the subject of enormous media attention and came to be regarded by many in Britain as a national hero.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on February 25, 2014, 05:25:48 PM
Shows how little the Brit public thought of their soldiers when a horse became a hero.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Minder on February 25, 2014, 05:37:11 PM
It was very cosy with Tony Blair by the looks of it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on February 26, 2014, 12:00:29 PM
This is a good link on Slugger where it shows details in Powell's book regarding the OTR issue, and the involvement of the DUP. They bought the deal and got Tony Blair to send a letter to big Ian saying they would blame Trimble on the concession.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/02/26/downey-case-and-the-uncomfortable-facts-of-our-peace-process-re-emerge-in-a-different-light/

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: stibhan on February 26, 2014, 01:57:34 PM
Robinson is threatening to quit, or at least posturing towards that. It's a very, very strange situation, especially when you consider that it more or less rewards those who went on-the-run rather than stayed in the north/Britain. That said I imagine it will be years before we really find out what's happened here in the full light of day.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: omagh_gael on February 26, 2014, 02:19:47 PM
It has gotten very messy and looks like it could have a serious impact on the future of the assembly. Bet Gerry McGeogh wishes he had of stayed OTR a bit longer.

All politics aside, it must be hard for the relevant victim's families to watch this unfold.

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: under the bar on February 26, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
You'd think details of the the 'letter' in question might have surfaced before things got this far, or a quiet word might have gone out from the top to drop charges rather than have a furore once it reaches court? Weird
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 26, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 26, 2014, 12:00:29 PM
This is a good link on Slugger where it shows details in Powell's book regarding the OTR issue, and the involvement of the DUP. They bought the deal and got Tony Blair to send a letter to big Ian saying they would blame Trimble on the concession.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/02/26/downey-case-and-the-uncomfortable-facts-of-our-peace-process-re-emerge-in-a-different-light/

Heard something on the radio there to the effect that Eames/Bradley briefed the Policing Board on this in 2010 and that the "OTR Scheme" is referenced in their report.  I don't for one minute believe that this was a "secret".

No way Pete will resign...you do know there are elections coming up!!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on February 26, 2014, 06:16:45 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on February 26, 2014, 02:19:47 PM
It has gotten very messy and looks like it could have a serious impact on the future of the assembly. Bet Gerry McGeogh wishes he had of stayed OTR a bit longer.

All politics aside, it must be hard for the relevant victim's families to watch this unfold.

Gerry was grand until he ran for election. Couldn't have that now could we !!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 07:35:52 PM
Quote from: AQMP on February 26, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 26, 2014, 12:00:29 PM
This is a good link on Slugger where it shows details in Powell's book regarding the OTR issue, and the involvement of the DUP. They bought the deal and got Tony Blair to send a letter to big Ian saying they would blame Trimble on the concession.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/02/26/downey-case-and-the-uncomfortable-facts-of-our-peace-process-re-emerge-in-a-different-light/

Heard something on the radio there to the effect that Eames/Bradley briefed the Policing Board on this in 2010 and that the "OTR Scheme" is referenced in their report.  I don't for one minute believe that this was a "secret".

No way Pete will resign...you do know there are elections coming up!!
That's exactly why he might. Although given that he is calling for an inquiry, he must be either confident that it will never happen, or confident that there'll be no evidence that the DUP knew about this.

Heard the reference on the radio this evening to Eames/Bradley as well, but it wasn't discussed in much detail to know what it means.

I don't understand why provision was made for OTRs, but not a full amnesty. Surely if some people are beyond the law for what happened prior to 1998, everyone should be? And why should it be different for someone who left the country? It's the arguments the likes of the DUP are making, but surely it's double standards to push for the Bloody Sunday soldiers to stand trial, yet support this scheme? Either everyone with evidence against them faces trial, or no one. I'm torn on which is the best of those two options.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on February 26, 2014, 07:49:40 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 07:35:52 PM
Quote from: AQMP on February 26, 2014, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on February 26, 2014, 12:00:29 PM
This is a good link on Slugger where it shows details in Powell's book regarding the OTR issue, and the involvement of the DUP. They bought the deal and got Tony Blair to send a letter to big Ian saying they would blame Trimble on the concession.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2014/02/26/downey-case-and-the-uncomfortable-facts-of-our-peace-process-re-emerge-in-a-different-light/

Heard something on the radio there to the effect that Eames/Bradley briefed the Policing Board on this in 2010 and that the "OTR Scheme" is referenced in their report.  I don't for one minute believe that this was a "secret".

No way Pete will resign...you do know there are elections coming up!!
That's exactly why he might. Although given that he is calling for an inquiry, he must be either confident that it will never happen, or confident that there'll be no evidence that the DUP knew about this.

Heard the reference on the radio this evening to Eames/Bradley as well, but it wasn't discussed in much detail to know what it means.

I don't understand why provision was made for OTRs, but not a full amnesty. Surely if some people are beyond the law for what happened prior to 1998, everyone should be? And why should it be different for someone who left the country? It's the arguments the likes of the DUP are making, but surely it's double standards to push for the Bloody Sunday soldiers to stand trial, yet support this scheme? Either everyone with evidence against them faces trial, or no one. I'm torn on which is the best of those two options.

I think the real double standards lie with unionist "outrage" over this news  ;) ;) ;)which they didn't know about ;););), mirrored with their silence on the amnesty british forces have been operating under here for almost all of the conflict.

In 1972, 79 Irish people were shot dead by the British Army in Ireland. The vast majority of these were civilians. In July 1972, a strategic government and security meeting at Stormont Castle was held, involving the Secretary for State William Whitelaw MP, the North's most senior British Army officer the General Officer Commanding (GOC) General Ford, the Deputy Chief Constable of the RUC, plus Lord Windlesham the British government's representative in the House of Lords, British MP's, and senior civil servants from the NIO. Relatives for Justice recently unearthed a document from this meeting which was met with amazingly little "outrage" from unionism. The document stated that "The (British) Army should not be inhibited in its campaign by the threat of court proceedings and should therefore be suitably indemnified." As mentioned, this meeting took place in 1972. That year 79 people were shot by the British Army. The meeting took place in July. That month the British Army killed 20 innocent civilians. Not one British soldier faced a conviction for ANY of these killings throughout 1972.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 08:00:03 PM
So what's the solution going forward? An amnesty for everyone, or everyone subject to due process? Because whatever about the wrongs of the past, it's not a runner to support an amnesty for one side, but campaign for that justice must be served against the other.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 26, 2014, 08:15:57 PM
It would be interesting to see the wording of one of these letters.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on February 26, 2014, 09:00:18 PM
It is quite entertaining to watch the unionists climbing over themselves to be the most offended whilst foaming at the mouth.

And what is Peter Protestant threatening to do? Resign. And what will that achieve? Stop any progress. Oh good one, Peter the Punt.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Apparently so on February 26, 2014, 09:22:50 PM
Hope he does resign and takes the rest of his dimwitted mates with him. Maybe the North will start to achieve instead of arguing over stupid shite every week

See tbh, I would rather direct rule coming from both Dublin and London. We might see something happen then because Sinn Fein and especially the DUP are f**king hopeless

Shitehole of a place
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Orior on February 26, 2014, 09:45:13 PM
Quote from: Apparently so on February 26, 2014, 09:22:50 PM
Hope he does resign and takes the rest of his dimwitted mates with him. Maybe the North will start to achieve instead of arguing over stupid shite every week

See tbh, I would rather direct rule coming from both Dublin and London. We might see something happen then because Sinn Fein and especially the DUP are f**king hopeless

Shitehole of a place

Yeah yeah, but we do have.... we have.... we've... a feck it you're right.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 10:05:59 PM
It's getting harder and harder to argue for devolution. It's difficult to see what it has actually achieved. Maybe Robinson should just pull the plug.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: stibhan on February 26, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 10:05:59 PM
It's getting harder and harder to argue for devolution. It's difficult to see what it has actually achieved. Maybe Robinson should just pull the plug.

If devolution goes then a United Ireland is inevitable.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: heganboy on February 26, 2014, 10:30:32 PM
Quote from: stibhan on February 26, 2014, 10:26:56 PM

If devolution goes then a United Ireland is inevitable.

whats the thinking here? I'm curious as to why you believe that this is the case
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 09:19:17 AM
"Get Out Of Jail Free" Card??  I hardly think so...

"The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been informed by the Attorney General that on the basis of the information currently available, there is no outstanding direction for prosecution in Northern Ireland, there are no warrants in existence nor are you wanted in Northern Ireland for arrest, questioning or charge by the police. The Police Service of Northern Ireland are not aware of any interest in you from any other police force in the United Kingdom. If any other outstanding offence or offences came to light, or if any request for extradition were to be received, these would have to be dealt with in the usual way."*

*Posted on Slugger
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on February 27, 2014, 09:34:00 AM
I must be thick, I don't see the issue here for Pete the Prod. They were informed that there was no evidence against them, by letter. If the evidence was there then they wouldn't get a letter. All the evidence points that the DUP knew that these were being dealt with they are dancing on the head of a pin claiming they didn't know that the scheme was "administrative" or that there was letters, how would people be notified? Carrier pigeons? Nolan on at the moment biased as usual, Atwood sounding more Unionist than an SDLP council candidate.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: theskull1 on February 27, 2014, 10:03:11 AM
How'd yer Hyde park accused go free then? If a blunder at the time meant he got a letter, why was it not subsequently rescinded?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: johnneycool on February 27, 2014, 10:35:13 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on February 27, 2014, 10:03:11 AM
How'd yer Hyde park accused go free then? If a blunder at the time meant he got a letter, why was it not subsequently rescinded?

It looks like the only blunder was with the PSNI not checking whether this lad was wanted by other UK police forces , but at the same time I'm sure Sinn Fein would have been pushing for all OTR's to get this letter irrespective if they were wanted by the PSNI, Met or whoever.

I'd say its turned into a blamegame with Peter doing the Pontius Pilate on it.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on February 27, 2014, 10:43:34 AM
It's perfect timing for the Unionists who were under serious pressure to do business and now they've won the lotto.


This comes as massive relief to Peter and Gregory and Jim Allister will be having an absolute field day.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: haranguerer on February 27, 2014, 10:45:42 AM
Theres been a lot of talk for quite a while that Peter has been looking an out - personal issues and the like.

This seems like it may be the opportunity hes been waiting for, he can appear to be martyring himself.

They're a ridiculous bunch of people.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on February 27, 2014, 10:58:41 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 26, 2014, 08:00:03 PM
So what's the solution going forward? An amnesty for everyone, or everyone subject to due process? Because whatever about the wrongs of the past, it's not a runner to support an amnesty for one side, but campaign for that justice must be served against the other.

It's an easy argument to hold, but is a bit over simplistic as it neglects the fact that over 25,000 republicans have already served jail sentences. Compared to just how many british security force personnel?? Three sentenced for murder? (And all three released and one or two reinstated to the army, handed their guns back and later promoted.)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on February 27, 2014, 11:35:56 AM
Former vice-chair of the policing board Dennis Bradley speaking of a briefing the Policing Board got in 2007 has said that board members, including representatives from every party except Sinn Féin, had been briefed about the issue of OTRs.

"When I was vice-chairman of the Northern Ireland Policing Board, the police came in and gave us a detailed briefing of the scheme. The Policing Board, at that stage, was the only institution up and running. The executive wasn't in being, it was suspended and didn't come into being until a couple of years later. But the police were up front and open and all of the political parties in Northern Ireland, barring Sinn Féin who weren't on the board at that time, would have been aware of the scheme. I remember the briefing and who gave the briefing. I don't think any political party should be talking about a crisis."


At the April 2010 Policing Board meeting, Assistant Chief Constable Drew Harris answered a question from the DUP's Tom Buchanan about the issue.

Mr Harris had replied: "There is an ongoing process to resolve those individuals who mostly refer to themselves as 'On the Runs'.

"There are a number of different methods of being identified as being 'On the Run,' mostly through names submitted, either by political parties or the governments to ourselves.

"There is then an investigation which follows into the individual and the crimes that he may have been involved in, and then this is subsequently reported to the Public Prosecution Service (PPS) where test for prosecution is met.

'Powers of arrest'
"We have been working through this process over the last number of years and it continues still to be available.

"So, in effect, as we become aware of a name in a particular incident, we carry out a cold case review and an investigation and report that to the PPS to see then if the test for prosecution is met or any other work that may be done.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 02:01:05 PM
According to the Bel Tel, it was widely reported in June 2012 upon her appointment to the Commission for Victims and Survivors, that former OTR Eibhlin Glenholmes had received assurances that she was not wanted by the PSNI in connection with any incidents during the Troubles.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/debateni/news/tony-blair-aide-told-of-pact-on-comfort-letters-in-2008-30046308.html
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on February 27, 2014, 02:37:51 PM
There's also an interview from last year where Gerry Kelly refers not only to the letters, but specifically to John Downey's letter. "John Downey recieved a letter from the NIO in 2007 stating that he was not wanted by the PSNI or any British police force" (23rd May 2013)

Even Basil McCrea is now coming out and saying that it is bad faith for people coming out saying they didn't know. (That little stoop toerag Alex Attwood amongst them. (My words, not Basil's))
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Apparently so on February 27, 2014, 02:43:24 PM
I quite like Basil McCrea. Seems decent enough
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
Quote from: Apparently so on February 27, 2014, 02:43:24 PM
I quite like Basil McCrea. Seems decent enough

Aye, might vote for him...if he wasn't one of themmuns!! ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 02:56:45 PM
Could this all backfire on the DUP??

Jonathan Powell on Radio 4:

Mr Powell told BBC Radio Four's World At One: "We'd tried legislation, we tried amnesties, we tried all sorts of things and we couldn't get them agreed.

"The letters were something quite different, they were an administrative scheme to make clear to people that they were not wanted, that they were not being sought by the police forces so they could come back - they were a factual thing, not part of a political negotiation.

"So the whole basis of this argument is actually completely misplaced."

"I don't see why a letter to someone telling them they are not wanted for a crime is something relevant for anyone to know apart the police and the people they are writing to," said Mr Powell.

"Again we are missing the point between an agreement on On the Runs which was very public - we were negotiating about it and failed to reach agreement on it - and factual letters saying you are not wanted.

"Agreements aren't a la carte. You can't suddenly not like that part of the agreement - I'm only going to have the bits that I like.

"You reach an agreement and they are very difficult these sort of agreements and both parties have to swallow things they really don't want to do and would rather not.

"Releasing murderers as part of the Good Friday agreement after only two years in prison was an extraordinarily difficult thing for the government to do and an extraordinarily difficult thing for particularly the unionist community in Northern Ireland to swallow - but you have to have these difficult compromises of you are going to an agreement - you can't just say it's all going to be for one side"
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 03:15:11 PM
Could this all backfire on the DUP...maybe, maybe not.  Not exactly what Robinson asked for but maybe enough to get him out of the corner he's backed himself into.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26373678

UK PM David Cameron appoints independent judge to review Northern Ireland secret letters row by end of May.

He said: "I agree with the first minister of Northern Ireland that after the terrible error of the Downey case it is right to get to the bottom of what happened.

"The case has already been referred to the Police Ombudsman, and as the first minister has said we should have a full independent examination of the whole operation of this scheme.

"We will appoint an independent judge to produce a full public account of the operation of this administrative scheme to determine whether any other letters were sent in error.

"The judge will have full access to government files and to government officials.

"This needs to happen quickly so this review will report by the end of May and we'll publish the report."
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Milltown Row2 on February 27, 2014, 03:56:54 PM
I'm not being political in any way here but it says that letters were sent to those 'On the Run' - if they were 'on the run' how did they know where to send the letters to?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 27, 2014, 03:56:54 PM
I'm not being political in any way here but it says that letters were sent to those 'On the Run' - if they were 'on the run' how did they know where to send the letters to?

Gerry Kelly hand delivered them!! 

I'd say they went through SF or in some cases solicitors.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: johnneycool on February 27, 2014, 04:29:11 PM
Loyalists also availed of this service it seems as well.

The more its come out, the more there's no way Peter, Nige and the lads didn't know about it at the time.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Goldengreen on February 27, 2014, 05:12:38 PM
Elsewhere in the news:

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/event-to-mark-downey-return-1-5903875


come on down if you are in the area its a free event  ;)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Franko on February 27, 2014, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 27, 2014, 04:29:11 PM
Loyalists also availed of this service it seems as well.

The more its come out, the more there's no way Peter, Nige and the lads didn't know about it at the time.

Not according to the BBC... where are you getting this from JC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26359906

Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on February 27, 2014, 05:29:49 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1970697_10152331325472650_1420334729_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on February 27, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
So, Peter got what he wanted. Although if my understanding of the letters is correct, there's nothing to rescind. The letters were statements of fact at a point in time with no guarantees. The media haven't been clear on this, but if it's the case, Robinson is spinning these clarification letters as a great victory when in fact they change nothing. Will be interesting to see the SF reaction.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 05:51:51 PM
Quote from: Franko on February 27, 2014, 05:28:40 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on February 27, 2014, 04:29:11 PM
Loyalists also availed of this service it seems as well.

The more its come out, the more there's no way Peter, Nige and the lads didn't know about it at the time.

Not according to the BBC... where are you getting this from JC?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-26359906

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/on-the-runs-loyalists-were-also-asked-for-a-list-of-their-fugitives-30046306.html

Loyalists were asked to submit names of OTRs and surprise, surprise like the British Army, they didn't have any.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 05:57:49 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on February 27, 2014, 05:47:13 PM
So, Peter got what he wanted. Although if my understanding of the letters is correct, there's nothing to rescind. The letters were statements of fact at a point in time with no guarantees. The media haven't been clear on this, but if it's the case, Robinson is spinning these clarification letters as a great victory when in fact they change nothing. Will be interesting to see the SF reaction.

That's the way he'll spin it. It seems the inquiry will only look at how the system operated and whether any other mistakes were made.  But you're right, there is nothing to rescind unless the PSNI made a balls up in any other cases.

I presume in the future no letters will be sent and communication of this nature will be by Morse Code or semaphore??
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on February 28, 2014, 06:06:44 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on February 27, 2014, 05:29:49 PM
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/t1/1970697_10152331325472650_1420334729_n.jpg)

Dear HM Government.

Thank ye for thon letter.

Yous are not wanted either.

Is mise le meas,

P. O'Neill.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on February 28, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
I see the Stormont Assembly condemned the Brit Govt over the issue today( 56 to 27)
Does that mean
1- The British Government has to resign and hold a General Election?
2- Did the SDLP support the Unionist motion.?
3 - Does anyone give two fcuks what that Assembly does once the pay cheques keep coming?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 28, 2014, 10:55:58 PM
Quote from: AQMP on February 27, 2014, 04:02:48 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on February 27, 2014, 03:56:54 PM
I'm not being political in any way here but it says that letters were sent to those 'On the Run' - if they were 'on the run' how did they know where to send the letters to?

Gerry Kelly hand delivered them!! 

I'd say they went through SF or in some cases solicitors.

Aye & probably got another lift off the peelers to get round faster!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on March 01, 2014, 10:58:33 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 28, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
I see the Stormont Assembly condemned the Brit Govt over the issue today( 56 to 27)
Does that mean
1- The British Government has to resign and hold a General Election?
2- Did the SDLP support the Unionist motion.?
3 - Does anyone give two fcuks what that Assembly does once the pay cheques keep coming?

1. Never
2. Never
3. Never

As big Ian would say.

Now I know what he meant all along.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on March 01, 2014, 11:07:43 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 28, 2014, 07:25:39 PM
I see the Stormont Assembly condemned the Brit Govt over the issue today( 56 to 27)
Does that mean
1- The British Government has to resign and hold a General Election?
2- Did the SDLP support the Unionist motion.?
3 - Does anyone give two fcuks what that Assembly does once the pay cheques keep coming?
Voted in both the Ayes and Noes according to the record - positively abstaining.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Saffrongael on March 01, 2014, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: Goldengreen on February 27, 2014, 05:12:38 PM
Elsewhere in the news:

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/event-to-mark-downey-return-1-5903875


come on down if you are in the area its a free event  ;)

Downey has cancelled the event
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on March 01, 2014, 11:31:51 AM
Quote from: Saffrongael on March 01, 2014, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: Goldengreen on February 27, 2014, 05:12:38 PM
Elsewhere in the news:

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/event-to-mark-downey-return-1-5903875


come on down if you are in the area its a free event  ;)

Downey has cancelled the event

Grant money didn't come through.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on March 01, 2014, 12:43:24 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on March 01, 2014, 11:20:52 AM
Quote from: Goldengreen on February 27, 2014, 05:12:38 PM
Elsewhere in the news:

http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/donegal-news/event-to-mark-downey-return-1-5903875


come on down if you are in the area its a free event  ;)

Downey has cancelled the event
Good call - nice to see a bit of common sense prevailing. 
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Gaffer on March 01, 2014, 04:24:42 PM
Wee Willie will be peeved!

He has the diesel in the tractor and was on his way up for a wee protest!
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: glens abu on March 01, 2014, 06:01:31 PM
In a statement issued through Sinn Féin, Mr Downey said tonight's homecoming event was not intended to insult or add to the hurt of anyone bereaved in the attack.

"Some elements of the media are portraying the event planned for tonight as triumphalist and insulting to bereaved families.  That was never what it was about," Mr Downey said.

The Sinn Féin member said that he has worked to promote peace and reconciliation and never intended to insult or hurt anyone.

"I am only too aware of their pain as there are many bereaved families also in the republican community."

Mr Downey said: "I refuse to allow what was planned as a simple get together of family, friends and neighbours who supported me throughout my wrongful arrest and imprisonment in England to welcome me home and allow me to thank them, to be misrepresented and turned into a media circus."
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Applesisapples on March 02, 2014, 09:06:40 AM
What a load of nonsense it would appear that everyone knew the OTRs were being in formed that they were or were not wanted. How'd Robinson think they were informed, telepathy? As for the stoops, just when you think they can't stoop any lower Big Al pulls it out of the bag.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Denn Forever on March 02, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
What would the thoughts be if the army from Bloody Sunday are given letters to say that they will never be pursued for their crimes?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Gaffer on March 02, 2014, 01:05:06 PM
Or if 187 loyalists waved similar kind of letters in the air?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: take_yer_points on March 02, 2014, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 02, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
What would the thoughts be if the army from Bloody Sunday are given letters to say that they will never be pursued for their crimes?

I'd imagine there'd be outrage amongst sections of the republican and nationalist community as well as a fair amount of indifference amongst some other sections. There'd also be a few who would agree with Peter Hain this morning when he said there's no point in pursuing the perpetrators with a view to seeking prosecution.

In the unionist community I'd say it would be the opposite - agreement among sections, indifference among other sections with a minority saying it shouldn't happen and they should be prosecuted.

Why do you ask? Is that what the letters to the on the runs said or did they say that they were not currently being sought but if new evidence emerges they they may be sought for prosecution again?
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Myles Na G. on March 02, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on March 02, 2014, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 02, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
What would the thoughts be if the army from Bloody Sunday are given letters to say that they will never be pursued for their crimes?

I'd imagine there'd be outrage amongst sections of the republican and nationalist community as well as a fair amount of indifference amongst some other sections. There'd also be a few who would agree with Peter Hain this morning when he said there's no point in pursuing the perpetrators with a view to seeking prosecution.

In the unionist community I'd say it would be the opposite - agreement among sections, indifference among other sections with a minority saying it shouldn't happen and they should be prosecuted.

Why do you ask? Is that what the letters to the on the runs said or did they say that they were not currently being sought but if new evidence emerges they they may be sought for prosecution again?
The content of the letters has been misrepresented by various unionist politicians, which has no doubt added to the distress of victims' families. They are not a get out of jail free card, they are not a pardon nor an amnesty. They say something to the effect that you are not currently being sought by authorities in Ireland or in GB, but that that situation could change in the future. With Downey there was a mistake, because he was being actively pursued by the Metropolitan Police. As with the flags issue, unionist politicians have stoked up fears and led their supporters up a blind alley. Peter Hain, amongst others, has pointed out everyone knew there was such a process even if they didn't know the detail. For unionists to claim that this was a secret deal and that they would never have accepted it had they known is just plain dishonesty.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: take_yer_points on March 02, 2014, 01:21:34 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on March 02, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
Quote from: take_yer_points on March 02, 2014, 01:07:25 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on March 02, 2014, 12:12:09 PM
What would the thoughts be if the army from Bloody Sunday are given letters to say that they will never be pursued for their crimes?

I'd imagine there'd be outrage amongst sections of the republican and nationalist community as well as a fair amount of indifference amongst some other sections. There'd also be a few who would agree with Peter Hain this morning when he said there's no point in pursuing the perpetrators with a view to seeking prosecution.

In the unionist community I'd say it would be the opposite - agreement among sections, indifference among other sections with a minority saying it shouldn't happen and they should be prosecuted.

Why do you ask? Is that what the letters to the on the runs said or did they say that they were not currently being sought but if new evidence emerges they they may be sought for prosecution again?
The content of the letters has been misrepresented by various unionist politicians, which has no doubt added to the distress of victims' families. They are not a get out of jail free card, they are not a pardon nor an amnesty. They say something to the effect that you are not currently being sought by authorities in Ireland or in GB, but that that situation could change in the future. With Downey there was a mistake, because he was being actively pursued by the Metropolitan Police. As with the flags issue, unionist politicians have stoked up fears and led their supporters up a blind alley. Peter Hain, amongst others, has pointed out everyone knew there was such a process even if they didn't know the detail. For unionists to claim that this was a secret deal and that they would never have accepted it had they known is just plain dishonesty.

That's my understanding as well - I could be wrong though and am happy to be corrected if I am
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: lawnseed on March 03, 2014, 06:37:41 AM
If i'd been in downey's position the first thing i'd have done upon arrest is pull out my letter. Its seem the brit cops ignored this. Or which is more likely the whole case against downey was a setup in order to get the bloodly sunday soldiers similar letters which haine has now called for (coincidentally of course) obviously someone up the chain of command is sweating
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on March 03, 2014, 02:01:39 PM
Queen pardoned on-the-run IRA fugitive

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/queen-pardoned-ontherun-ira-fugitive-28527632.html
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Nally Stand on March 03, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 03, 2014, 02:01:39 PM
Queen pardoned on-the-run IRA fugitive

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/queen-pardoned-ontherun-ira-fugitive-28527632.html

Date of article: 02 APRIL 2010

Isn't it just amazing that not one person in the DUP/UUP/SDLP bought the paper that day.

"I knew nahin'"
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on March 03, 2014, 02:53:04 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 03, 2014, 02:10:18 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 03, 2014, 02:01:39 PM
Queen pardoned on-the-run IRA fugitive

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/queen-pardoned-ontherun-ira-fugitive-28527632.html

Date of article: 02 APRIL 2010

Isn't it just amazing that not one person in the DUP/UUP/SDLP bought the paper that day.

"I knew nahin'"

Plus Nally, Arnold Foster and Maurice Morrow among others in the DUP were daily attendees at Gerry's trial. Maybe they were at the toilet or having a smoke when this was brought up.


Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: AQMP on March 03, 2014, 03:02:23 PM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/fury-as-ira-atrocity-suspect-who-topped-uks-most-wanted-list-is-appointed-to-victims-forum-28757708.html

See third last paragraph:

In July 2000 Glenholmes was on a list of 41 fugitive republicans given to Tony Blair by Gerry Adams.

This story was published on 7 June 2012.  Jeffrey Donaldson was quite measured in his response then??

Edit:  You can add this from 27 December 2000

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/1088530.stm

Not exactly the same scenario as some of the later letters but as Mark Devenport of the BBC says this scheme was "hidden in plain sight"
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on March 06, 2014, 08:06:37 PM
An interesting article that is well worth reading

http://www.londonderrysentinel.co.uk/news/local-news/war-of-words-continues-over-shinners-list-1-5919791
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Maguire01 on March 06, 2014, 11:19:09 PM
An interesting read alright. The OTRs really is about SF - I doubt even their voters, bar a few of those who were involved back in the day, would care less if nothing had been done on the OTRs issue.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: muppet on March 09, 2014, 01:24:49 PM
The only way to ever make real progress in the future is to reach a point where you can close the door on the past. This will involve pain on all sides and will certainly involve agreements that will be hard to stomach for some.

I don't like deals like this but I believe that they are inevitable and I am willing to accept them only if it is in the context of progressing peace. In that regard I won't criticise Sinn Féin for agreeing to such a deal.

However, the lack of transparency is very disappointing.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: orangeman on July 03, 2014, 01:10:08 PM
Good to see we've all learnt from the past and are prepared to act in a mature manner and not revert to the old ways :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28138927
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: sensethetone on July 03, 2014, 02:03:35 PM
They could have marched out, but they needed permission.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: Rossfan on July 03, 2014, 03:00:03 PM
What a bunch of spoilt children.
Soon be time for the 2 Governments to go back to the Anglo Irish Agreement of 1985 situation as those Unionist floots are incapable of adult behaviour.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: screenexile on March 24, 2015, 04:30:17 PM
News broke at lunch time there that Gerry Kelly got a Royal Pardon when he was extradited from the Netherlands back in the 80s... I think Jim Allister and Wullie are recovering from the news as we speak!!

What do we make of it? The Belfast Tele Facebook is going a bit crazy about it here:

https://www.facebook.com/belfasttelegraph/posts/10153067412488819 (https://www.facebook.com/belfasttelegraph/posts/10153067412488819)
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: give her dixie on March 24, 2015, 06:24:53 PM
Yet another hearty bowl of soup dished out by the Establishment and consumed by the top level once again.

Nothing the shinners do surprises me anymore. It's only a matter of time until they take their seats at Westminster.
After all, they take every benefit going with the role and Martin McGuinness never wastes an opportunity to praise the Queen.

And Gerry and co have no problem calling people opposed to the occupation as "So called republicans".
Maybe they should look in the mirror the next time they use this phrase.
Title: Re: The Haas Talks
Post by: armaghniac on March 24, 2015, 07:59:43 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on March 24, 2015, 06:24:53 PM
Yet another hearty bowl of soup dished out by the Establishment and consumed by the top level once again.


I don't see why SF should have a problem about this. They wanted recognition of the political nature of their actions, the thing the British use to do that is called a Royal Pardon, so what? The British can call letting people off whatever they want.