Catalan Independence Movement

Started by gallsman, September 21, 2017, 10:37:37 AM

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gallsman

Quote from: StGallsGAA on October 01, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 03:52:02 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.

So what's happening at present isn't the actions of an oppressive govt then?

That still doesn't make it fascist. Oppression comes in all shapes and forms.

under the bar

#91
Quote from: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on October 01, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 03:52:02 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.

So what's happening at present isn't the actions of an oppressive govt then?

That still doesn't make it fascist. Oppression comes in all shapes and forms.

"Hola Senor protestor!   Pardon me while I cave your skull in with my democratic non-fascist baton round!  Solidarity mi hombre!".

stew

Quote from: Walter Cronc on September 21, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

Dont do it Walter, I have him blocked but if you challenge gallbladder in any way you will be abused, he cannot take questions because he does not know the answers to the questions people pose, hence the abuse.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

thejuice

I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

CiKe

Quote from: thejuice on October 01, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.

tonto1888

Quote from: CiKe on October 01, 2017, 09:52:55 PM
Quote from: thejuice on October 01, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.

perhaps if he allowed the vote to go ahead the no campaign would have mobilised its voters?

gallsman

The referendum was illegal. The legislation that brought it about unconstitutional. There would have been no participation from the no side either way.

CiKe

Quote from: tonto1888 on October 01, 2017, 09:55:58 PM
Quote from: CiKe on October 01, 2017, 09:52:55 PM
Quote from: thejuice on October 01, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.

perhaps if he allowed the vote to go ahead the no campaign would have mobilised its voters?

He couldn't let it go ahead even if he wanted to due to the constitution. Also bear in mind that of the other major political parties on a national level, only Podemos supported the right to vote. If he had walked back I don't think he could have survived.

That said, as I mentioned, the situation is at least in part of his own making. He probably much earlier should have made moves to get cross party agreement for a referendum some time hence which would allow both sides to run organised campaigns, as opposed to Puidgemont et al. saying, "we're doing it now, whether you like it or not".

thejuice

That was my point. He should have done it years ago. He could have thrown those who were proud Catalans but not supporters of independence a few bones to respect their autonomy and identity and that would have quenched any fires.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

gallsman


thejuice

The no vote abstaining hasn't helped the situation at all leading up to this as well. As for the constitution they've had no problem changing it on Merkels request so it's not that precious when it suits them.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

seafoid

"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

MoChara

I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.

gallsman

Quote from: MoChara on October 02, 2017, 11:41:31 AM
I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.

Precisely. There is a completely misguided belief that this is some sort of socialist revolution. The shinners had boots on the ground offer there yesterday and are helping to propagate that myth in this part of the world at least.

MoChara

Quote from: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
Quote from: MoChara on October 02, 2017, 11:41:31 AM
I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.

Precisely. There is a completely misguided belief that this is some sort of socialist revolution. The shinners had boots on the ground offer there yesterday and are helping to propagate that myth in this part of the world at least.

Even the IRPs have people over FFS