Antrim Hurling

[SaffronSports]

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

Antrim club league is (at the top end) very competitive and we've been very competitive for many years when we get to the All Ireland series, this is down to having the better teams, Portaferry won the league not long ago so it's a positive for me..

Teams have went down from Down but have always came straight back up.

I just feel, from what I see, that the standard from Div 2 is not as good as it was a few years ago.

And teams going up recently have found it tough

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

We need the Ards teams in Div 1. Replacing them with say Carey, Glenarm and Ahoghill would not only do those three harm it would do our top teams harm. We need them as much as they need us.

The only thing ill say is sometimes we look after teams from other counties down the leagues. Parachute a team into Div 2 or 3 when there are antrim teams busting their balls to make that step up

A strong healthy competitive Antrim league benefits the players being supplied to the senior team.

It is on teams to lift their standards and if they are busting their balls they will move up through the leagues

I'm just not seeing it at the minute, some teams like Sarsfields have been hampered through the leagues because of their county players, but I'd say injuries and a thin enough panel is probably more to blame for them.

A team that can only be competitive from DIV 2 needs to be blowing teams away every week and be a stand out team before moving up.

If teams from other counties are coming in I've very rarely seen them underperform in the league they have been in, Dungannon where very good, the Derry team competed at that level they were at div 3 and others over the years were there or there abouts.

BTW this isn't a slight on the teams I'm talking about, this happens every so often, then a set of juveniles come through to bolster a senior team and make the breakthrough i.e St Enda's being prime example

Div 2 is 100% squad depth. Sarsfields full out are top end div 2. Playing most of the year without best four players? Probably similar to Creggan last year, relegated and could have a say yet in the Intermediate championship. Cushendun have lost a lot of players, few in Australia, couple around the belfast clubs. TNN and Ahoghill both heavy number of dual players and probably unable to commit the training time to hurling. Can Glenariffe kick on in a few years time?

Yes Dungannon competed well, thats not my point. Example being Cuchullains from Armagh. Pulled out of Division three last minute, Ardoyne won division four last year in a year with no promotion. Their lack of respect for Antrim has cost Ardoyne possibly two seasons in Divison three, they could've kicked on again.

Next year or the year after when Cuchullains decide to come back we'll open the door for them again

What is the story with Creggan, are they not playing any championship this year in Hurling?

Yeah they pulled out of the Senior Championship so no Championship.

[thegladiator]

Again, this just shows up the league fixtures for the shambles they are in both codes. Lisburn finish their football league season on Saturday and have no championship til the 2nd august so have 4 games from then until the middle of September.  4 games in 12 weeks over the "summer" months. Mental. How will that drive standards, increase  competition, motivate players? Granted that is probably  an anomaly, but most teams will play 3 or 4 games from 3rd July til mid September. Why the hurry to get the leagues finished? They appear to be a hinderance to the CB and whatever logic they use to just get them out of the way. I Just don't get it, it leads to shambolic  situations  of Dunloy  supposed to be relegated to D3 football last year, but getting to the senior final, Creggan getting relegated, but winning intermediate championship. St Paul's in the running for D2 football, but don't have their county players for the entire league or possibly just 1 match at the end. Glenravel, struggling  in D1 because they are supplying  key players to the county  team. Surely we ALL deserve better.

[Milltown Row2]

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

Antrim club league is (at the top end) very competitive and we've been very competitive for many years when we get to the All Ireland series, this is down to having the better teams, Portaferry won the league not long ago so it's a positive for me..

Teams have went down from Down but have always came straight back up.

I just feel, from what I see, that the standard from Div 2 is not as good as it was a few years ago.

And teams going up recently have found it tough

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

We need the Ards teams in Div 1. Replacing them with say Carey, Glenarm and Ahoghill would not only do those three harm it would do our top teams harm. We need them as much as they need us.

The only thing ill say is sometimes we look after teams from other counties down the leagues. Parachute a team into Div 2 or 3 when there are antrim teams busting their balls to make that step up

A strong healthy competitive Antrim league benefits the players being supplied to the senior team.

It is on teams to lift their standards and if they are busting their balls they will move up through the leagues

I'm just not seeing it at the minute, some teams like Sarsfields have been hampered through the leagues because of their county players, but I'd say injuries and a thin enough panel is probably more to blame for them.

A team that can only be competitive from DIV 2 needs to be blowing teams away every week and be a stand out team before moving up.

If teams from other counties are coming in I've very rarely seen them underperform in the league they have been in, Dungannon where very good, the Derry team competed at that level they were at div 3 and others over the years were there or there abouts.

BTW this isn't a slight on the teams I'm talking about, this happens every so often, then a set of juveniles come through to bolster a senior team and make the breakthrough i.e St Enda's being prime example

Div 2 is 100% squad depth. Sarsfields full out are top end div 2. Playing most of the year without best four players? Probably similar to Creggan last year, relegated and could have a say yet in the Intermediate championship. Cushendun have lost a lot of players, few in Australia, couple around the belfast clubs. TNN and Ahoghill both heavy number of dual players and probably unable to commit the training time to hurling. Can Glenariffe kick on in a few years time?

Yes Dungannon competed well, thats not my point. Example being Cuchullains from Armagh. Pulled out of Division three last minute, Ardoyne won division four last year in a year with no promotion. Their lack of respect for Antrim has cost Ardoyne possibly two seasons in Divison three, they could've kicked on again.

Next year or the year after when Cuchullains decide to come back we'll open the door for them again

If  Cuchullains come back in again, you want them to start at div 4 and work their way up? What about the lads in Div 4 knocking their pan in and these lads come in at a far greater standard and blow everyone away?

As for the no promotion was this the same across the board? Did the clubs (only Antrim clubs) vote for this? As its the clubs who decide on matters like that, not the county.

Did Ardoyne at the weekend, some potential there. they are lying 3rd and would need to beat Davitts to get into contention of a place in Div 3, if at the minute they can't get even get second place then they are where they are and that's their level

For a club that only recently started back in the senior leagues I think their progress is great and has an upward trajectory

[Saffrongael]

I wouldn't have a massive issue making them start in Div 4, if they are blowing everyone away they will only be there one season. And one sided games in Div 4 wouldn't be anything new, Davitts & Gort have beaten teams by 40 & 50 points this season.

Gort scored 13-23 against Larne a few weeks ago.

[Milltown Row2]

I wouldn't have a massive issue making them start in Div 4, if they are blowing everyone away they will only be there one season. And one sided games in Div 4 wouldn't be anything new, Davitts & Gort have beaten teams by 40 & 50 points this season.

Gort scored 13-23 against Larne a few weeks ago.

Personally I'd have a top league with the Derry teams Dungiven and S'Neil in it but due to various different things like fixture set ups in both counties its not always easy.

Playing games I always wanted to be playing the best teams, what county they were from was not a concern, only concern was bettering ourselves and stuffing teams by 40 or 50 points is not a game I'd be interested in.

I fail to see the benefits for anyone

[NorthAntrim]

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

Antrim club league is (at the top end) very competitive and we've been very competitive for many years when we get to the All Ireland series, this is down to having the better teams, Portaferry won the league not long ago so it's a positive for me..

Teams have went down from Down but have always came straight back up.

I just feel, from what I see, that the standard from Div 2 is not as good as it was a few years ago.

And teams going up recently have found it tough

While the competition in Div2 is great and a lot teams beating each other and so on, the standard is no where good enough, I really think its dropped these last few years and the gap to senior is widening.

Not sure what is best going forward to lift it, but very impressed with Glenarm's results though haven't seen them

Would there be an argument to have just Antrim clubs in our leagues? Would 3 or 4 extra Antrim teams in Div 1 be better as they'd be testing themselves against the best a few times but ultimately go into bottom half and get a few even games too. I suppose the counter argument might be that would potentially weaken the top teams if they're not getting as many tough games.

We need the Ards teams in Div 1. Replacing them with say Carey, Glenarm and Ahoghill would not only do those three harm it would do our top teams harm. We need them as much as they need us.

The only thing ill say is sometimes we look after teams from other counties down the leagues. Parachute a team into Div 2 or 3 when there are antrim teams busting their balls to make that step up

A strong healthy competitive Antrim league benefits the players being supplied to the senior team.

It is on teams to lift their standards and if they are busting their balls they will move up through the leagues

I'm just not seeing it at the minute, some teams like Sarsfields have been hampered through the leagues because of their county players, but I'd say injuries and a thin enough panel is probably more to blame for them.

A team that can only be competitive from DIV 2 needs to be blowing teams away every week and be a stand out team before moving up.

If teams from other counties are coming in I've very rarely seen them underperform in the league they have been in, Dungannon where very good, the Derry team competed at that level they were at div 3 and others over the years were there or there abouts.

BTW this isn't a slight on the teams I'm talking about, this happens every so often, then a set of juveniles come through to bolster a senior team and make the breakthrough i.e St Enda's being prime example

Div 2 is 100% squad depth. Sarsfields full out are top end div 2. Playing most of the year without best four players? Probably similar to Creggan last year, relegated and could have a say yet in the Intermediate championship. Cushendun have lost a lot of players, few in Australia, couple around the belfast clubs. TNN and Ahoghill both heavy number of dual players and probably unable to commit the training time to hurling. Can Glenariffe kick on in a few years time?

Yes Dungannon competed well, thats not my point. Example being Cuchullains from Armagh. Pulled out of Division three last minute, Ardoyne won division four last year in a year with no promotion. Their lack of respect for Antrim has cost Ardoyne possibly two seasons in Divison three, they could've kicked on again.

Next year or the year after when Cuchullains decide to come back we'll open the door for them again

If  Cuchullains come back in again, you want them to start at div 4 and work their way up? What about the lads in Div 4 knocking their pan in and these lads come in at a far greater standard and blow everyone away?

As for the no promotion was this the same across the board? Did the clubs (only Antrim clubs) vote for this? As its the clubs who decide on matters like that, not the county.

Did Ardoyne at the weekend, some potential there. they are lying 3rd and would need to beat Davitts to get into contention of a place in Div 3, if at the minute they can't get even get second place then they are where they are and that's their level

For a club that only recently started back in the senior leagues I think their progress is great and has an upward trajectory

Start at the bottom yes. Might make them think about dropping in and out when it suits.

Upward trajectory alright and good to see. Football progress has stalled, lost a few hurlers too so hopefully doesn't start to go the other way

[Milltown Row2]

Again, this just shows up the league fixtures for the shambles they are in both codes. Lisburn finish their football league season on Saturday and have no championship til the 2nd august so have 4 games from then until the middle of September.  4 games in 12 weeks over the "summer" months. Mental. How will that drive standards, increase  competition, motivate players? Granted that is probably  an anomaly, but most teams will play 3 or 4 games from 3rd July til mid September. Why the hurry to get the leagues finished? They appear to be a hinderance to the CB and whatever logic they use to just get them out of the way. I Just don't get it, it leads to shambolic  situations  of Dunloy  supposed to be relegated to D3 football last year, but getting to the senior final, Creggan getting relegated, but winning intermediate championship. St Paul's in the running for D2 football, but don't have their county players for the entire league or possibly just 1 match at the end. Glenravel, struggling  in D1 because they are supplying  key players to the county  team. Surely we ALL deserve better.

I'm all ears ..

Every dual county has issues with their leagues, with the split season it has thrown up some problems.

But Creggan have had plenty of injuries and players unavailable for large chucks of the year due to dual players on county teams.

Dunloy's best team is never available for the league and that's not just in football, they never had county players up on till the split..

St Enda's had a mare of a league campaign last year due to county players Rossa struggled two

Your solution would be?

[thegladiator]

My solution mr2 would be to start the leagues a bit later and to run them off later. I don't think having 4 games in 10/12 weeks at the height of summer is the best use of the calendar. I'm sure that if it's OK to have championship semi finals &finals in  mid to late September/early october, then we could run some league games alongside them. Eg a round of league games, for teams knocked out at 11am then the championship games in the afternoon. We seem to be able to utilise Saturdays for championship  games in September why not league games? Pitches, on the whole, are a lot better now than when you or I were playing so I don't see that as a reason not too be playing a bit later in the year.
It's not a radical solution, just a bit of commonsense rather  than just shoving fixtures in for the sake of it. We are running the leagues off when the county season is in full swing, then 4 games in 12 weeks, when the county teams are finished.
Will d1 in both codes be stronger if clubs have full compliment of players for at least  50% of league games? I think so. Will D2 be better off, I think so. Will Dunloy  be able to push for promotion from d2 to d1 football-its more likely. Would st Paul's benefit from having their county players- yes, It's effectively costing them promotion this year(pending the next 2 results).  Would glenravel be in trouble with their county contingent on board-no, but they will come back for the last game or 2 and hopefully see them safe.
Just my thoughts  on it. Sorry for the rant!

[Milltown Row2]

My solution mr2 would be to start the leagues a bit later and to run them off later. I don't think having 4 games in 10/12 weeks at the height of summer is the best use of the calendar. I'm sure that if it's OK to have championship semi finals &finals in  mid to late September/early october, then we could run some league games alongside them. Eg a round of league games, for teams knocked out at 11am then the championship games in the afternoon. We seem to be able to utilise Saturdays for championship  games in September why not league games? Pitches, on the whole, are a lot better now than when you or I were playing so I don't see that as a reason not too be playing a bit later in the year.
It's not a radical solution, just a bit of commonsense rather  than just shoving fixtures in for the sake of it. We are running the leagues off when the county season is in full swing, then 4 games in 12 weeks, when the county teams are finished.
Will d1 in both codes be stronger if clubs have full compliment of players for at least  50% of league games? I think so. Will D2 be better off, I think so. Will Dunloy  be able to push for promotion from d2 to d1 football-its more likely. Would st Paul's benefit from having their county players- yes, It's effectively costing them promotion this year(pending the next 2 results).  Would glenravel be in trouble with their county contingent on board-no, but they will come back for the last game or 2 and hopefully see them safe.
Just my thoughts  on it. Sorry for the rant!

No rant lol

Fixture planning though I'd imagine is a desperate job.

Few things to take on board, just off the top of my head...

Master fixtures from the Croke park, so your dates for league championships and back door games and so on.

After that you have the dual aspect of our county

Stick in commitments of county players cabs their availability (which every county expects)

Add in the size of the leagues and changes in them ( decided by our clubs  )

The split format

And of course not forgetting the stag weekends lol!

There is a simple format, 8 teams form div1 A and B. Play offs at end of season so that teams with county players missing will have an opportunity to have their best team out.

Meaning top four play off to win the league bottom four playoff to stay up.

That leaves you 18 teams to form div 2 A and B, using same format

Teams have something to play for in the second half of the season leading up to championship

In Hurling something similar but the leagues need looked at first. Slightly uneven contests, clubs would also need to be honest with themselves too.

Getting the dates right is the main issues

Though pitches are better than my day the weather has changed dramatically leaving some places washed out!

Someone will always have a solution but in most cases I've found that they are looking at it from their club's perspective

[thegladiator]

We are all guilty looking out for our own interests mr2! I think you are right that clubs have to look at themselves and accept their  level, perhaps Creggan should be applauded for their decision to not enter the senior championship- it could have been counter productive  for them in the long run, although they miss out on a year's championship hurling- could dispensation  have been made to go intermediate again?
I still think the point stands that our leagues aren't as well structured and organised as they could be in order to benefit both club and the county. Healthy, competitive club leagues will only increase our level on the county scene, not reduce it.

[SaffronSports]

We are all guilty looking out for our own interests mr2! I think you are right that clubs have to look at themselves and accept their  level, perhaps Creggan should be applauded for their decision to not enter the senior championship- it could have been counter productive  for them in the long run, although they miss out on a year's championship hurling- could dispensation  have been made to go intermediate again?
I still think the point stands that our leagues aren't as well structured and organised as they could be in order to benefit both club and the county. Healthy, competitive club leagues will only increase our level on the county scene, not reduce it.

Completely disagree on Creggan. You win Junior or Intermediate and you have to go up in my opinion. Not fair on the other teams otherwise.

[thegladiator]

We are all guilty looking out for our own interests mr2! I think you are right that clubs have to look at themselves and accept their  level, perhaps Creggan should be applauded for their decision to not enter the senior championship- it could have been counter productive  for them in the long run, although they miss out on a year's championship hurling- could dispensation  have been made to go intermediate again?
I still think the point stands that our leagues aren't as well structured and organised as they could be in order to benefit both club and the county. Healthy, competitive club leagues will only increase our level on the county scene, not reduce it.

Completely disagree on Creggan. You win Junior or Intermediate and you have to go up in my opinion. Not fair on the other teams otherwise.

I don't think the 4th placed team in div 3 being in the senior championship would do anyone any favours. As we said earlier, a bit of acceptance as to your level might actually help clubs in the longer term. Creggan beat us in the final last year- if we had won,I don't think playing senior championship this season would have done us or any of the D1 teams any favours because we just aren't anywhere near the  level required. It's different if teams drop down a level in order to win a "handy" intermediate/junior championship, but I don't see that with Creggan and a dose of realism is healthy sometimes.

[DownFanatic]

How long ago did Down teams enter the Ulster League?

[NAG1]

How long ago did Down teams enter the Ulster League?

You will not find a single genuine hurling person seeking to remove the 3 (main) Down clubs from the Antrim leagues.

To be fair to them they are usually among the toughest games in the league.

At this point I would be an advocate for opening up the leagues to some of the stronger Derry teams, provided that they would commit the same way in which their Down counter parts have done. I don't think they are in a position to do this currently.

We need to find ways to drive up the competitiveness of hurling within Antrim and Ulster, should that be through looking at better ways to work the calendar or through the league structures themselves.

[Milltown Row2]

How long ago did Down teams enter the Ulster League?

You will not find a single genuine hurling person seeking to remove the 3 (main) Down clubs from the Antrim leagues.

To be fair to them they are usually among the toughest games in the league.

At this point I would be an advocate for opening up the leagues to some of the stronger Derry teams, provided that they would commit the same way in which their Down counter parts have done. I don't think they are in a position to do this currently.

We need to find ways to drive up the competitiveness of hurling within Antrim and Ulster, should that be through looking at better ways to work the calendar or through the league structures themselves.

1 million percent!

Our top Antrim clubs have always competed at Ulster and all Ireland club level due to the competitiveness of our top leagues, encouraging better teams to be in there will only drive that up and through more counties in a football driven Ulster.

Were Antrim clubs in Ulster have fallen down is at Junior and Intermediate, as I said recently the standards at that level for some reason lately has dropped, maybe its just a cycle and will come back to being more competitive but not seeing it currently.

A junior team and an Intermediate team winning Antrim should be looking to win Ulster, S'neil really put a cat among the pigeons and it was a reality check for our top clubs, and did them no harm because Dunloy really upped the tempo and made the breakthrough on that team followed by Cushendall.