Refugees

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.

Okay, Az, as one gentleman to another, I'll attempt to enlighten you.
You know quite  few from other countries who have good jobs here and so do I. Obviously, the standard of education in some of the countries in question iis at least as good, if not better, than we have here.There's one hell of a difference although between someone coming here with a job waiting or with definite leads to where he might find one. It happens all the time.
But did any of the immigrants you mention come here without an arse to their trousers or a shirt to their back? Did some or all of them have a working command of English and were aware of the rights of workers in our society?
I know an individual who worked for one of the 3 big supermarket chains.  He was a store manager and quite happy with his pay and conditions when he received a very attractive retirement package.
This was in 2010 when the the economy had started to unravel and he was only in his late 40s and happy with his job. Anyway, he took the money and got out.
But he thought it odd that others with any decent period of service clocked up got similar offers.
He felt opt was some sort of shift in  company policy that led to the retirement offers but it didn't concern him unduly
He quickly found out that his surmise was correct but he didn't expect what that change was going to be..
He stays in contact with the management as he gets asked in from time to time to cover for someone who is absent ot to help out at busy periods and the likes.
New employees can be let go at a week's notice. They get the bare minimum wage but are forced to work extra hours without pay so effectively they get less than the minimum wage. They get 20 hours guaranteed work but the management decides where and when they work these hours. Someone could turn up for work and then be let go home after, say, two hours even though they had been told to be on call for eight.
I'm no expert on labour laws but it seems that if anyone working a twenty hours minimum week can get a social welfare top up if they work for only three days. However, if their employed hours extend into the fourth or fifth day, they won't get this top up at all.
I think it's fair to say that this company's policies are the norm elsewhere.
Now if the worker in question comes here as a refugee of any sort or happens to be a fellow-citizen down on his/her luck makes no difference to me. They are all human beings and deserve at the very least the basic human rights the rest of us can take for granted.

You seem to have gone way off on a tangent Lar!!! I fail to see how labour laws in Ireland are related to the current refugee crisis.

On your point about immigrants who cannot speak English only getting low paid jobs here - of course, they're not going to be hired as a doctor / engineer / accountant ffs, who's going to want to deal with someone who can't speak English, it's simply not practical? Once they learn to speak English, I have no doubt they would be considered for a job on their merits the same as any Irish person

No, I think I'm very much on target. I'm not at all referring to immigrants getting low-paid jobs because they don't speak English. How about the native Irish who can't get jobs because there a shortage of jobs and a surplus of labour- all to the benefit of unscrupulous employers.
What about people on zero hour contracts or the likes of those supermarket workers I mentioned in my last post?
You're damn right the refugees/immigrants or whatever you call them will be treated the same  as the Irish. Like dirt.
My point about immigrants who can't get decent jobs here wasn't just about their inability to speak English- far from it. I don't see very many from English speaking countries coming here in search of work anyway.
Alan Kelly, not me, brought up the subject of incoming refugees with qualifications making a positive contribution to our economy.
There are people all around you working to zero or possibly 20 hour contracts with far less rights and entitlements than workers had at any time since the foundation od the state. The INTO, my old TU, carried out a survey on the subject of kids coming to school without breakfast and found that 25% were actually hungry. There is real poverty and starvation in our society and unless the pay and conditions for workers at the lower end of the pay scale improves, things are going tare not going to improve.
To finish where I began, what Alan Kelly had to say was downright disingenuous at best and disgraceful at worst.

[macdanger2]

Rioting to get into Hungary isn't going to do anyone any favours.
I find it strange that people fleeing violence will use it themselves. Surely if your priority was safety then being anywhere else in the world bar the place you're in danger would be good enough?

Standing patiently in line would do the trick I suppose??

I can't wait to try the same trick next time I'm in the immigration line at JFK...

Does being a refugee give you licence to bypass any law you feel is unjust? Surely those who are looking for another state to help them should be somewhat respectful there is a due process involved.

So what would you suggest they do?

Now breaking police lines in Croatia.

I'm still trying to figure out what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?
What about all the non-syrians who are piggybacking on this crisis? Are they considered refugees too?

What would you do if you and your family were in that situation foxcommander??

Find the closest place to my home country where they'd be safe. Right now this is like some once in a lifetime get into europe free offer that is attracting the masses.
I don't think anyone has any intention of moving back to syria (or afghanistan, pakistan, ethiopia etc) when the dust settles.

So you'd be happy with a refugee camp in Lebanon then?

You failed to answer my question - what's the primary aim of heading to europe?

Eh? You didn't ask a question in your previous post.

You'd be happy to simply go to a refugee camp in Lebanon??

Then let me ask it again
what's the aim is here - get to anywhere safe or get into europe by any means possible?

I have absolutely no idea. Sure they should just be happy with the other 1.2million in refugee camps in Lebanon

[macdanger2]

Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.

Okay, Az, as one gentleman to another, I'll attempt to enlighten you.
You know quite  few from other countries who have good jobs here and so do I. Obviously, the standard of education in some of the countries in question iis at least as good, if not better, than we have here.There's one hell of a difference although between someone coming here with a job waiting or with definite leads to where he might find one. It happens all the time.
But did any of the immigrants you mention come here without an arse to their trousers or a shirt to their back? Did some or all of them have a working command of English and were aware of the rights of workers in our society?
I know an individual who worked for one of the 3 big supermarket chains.  He was a store manager and quite happy with his pay and conditions when he received a very attractive retirement package.
This was in 2010 when the the economy had started to unravel and he was only in his late 40s and happy with his job. Anyway, he took the money and got out.
But he thought it odd that others with any decent period of service clocked up got similar offers.
He felt opt was some sort of shift in  company policy that led to the retirement offers but it didn't concern him unduly
He quickly found out that his surmise was correct but he didn't expect what that change was going to be..
He stays in contact with the management as he gets asked in from time to time to cover for someone who is absent ot to help out at busy periods and the likes.
New employees can be let go at a week's notice. They get the bare minimum wage but are forced to work extra hours without pay so effectively they get less than the minimum wage. They get 20 hours guaranteed work but the management decides where and when they work these hours. Someone could turn up for work and then be let go home after, say, two hours even though they had been told to be on call for eight.
I'm no expert on labour laws but it seems that if anyone working a twenty hours minimum week can get a social welfare top up if they work for only three days. However, if their employed hours extend into the fourth or fifth day, they won't get this top up at all.
I think it's fair to say that this company's policies are the norm elsewhere.
Now if the worker in question comes here as a refugee of any sort or happens to be a fellow-citizen down on his/her luck makes no difference to me. They are all human beings and deserve at the very least the basic human rights the rest of us can take for granted.

You seem to have gone way off on a tangent Lar!!! I fail to see how labour laws in Ireland are related to the current refugee crisis.

On your point about immigrants who cannot speak English only getting low paid jobs here - of course, they're not going to be hired as a doctor / engineer / accountant ffs, who's going to want to deal with someone who can't speak English, it's simply not practical? Once they learn to speak English, I have no doubt they would be considered for a job on their merits the same as any Irish person

No, I think I'm very much on target. I'm not at all referring to immigrants getting low-paid jobs because they don't speak English. How about the native Irish who can't get jobs because there a shortage of jobs and a surplus of labour- all to the benefit of unscrupulous employers.
What about people on zero hour contracts or the likes of those supermarket workers I mentioned in my last post?
You're damn right the refugees/immigrants or whatever you call them will be treated the same  as the Irish. Like dirt.
My point about immigrants who can't get decent jobs here wasn't just about their inability to speak English- far from it. I don't see very many from English speaking countries coming here in search of work anyway.
Alan Kelly, not me, brought up the subject of incoming refugees with qualifications making a positive contribution to our economy.
There are people all around you working to zero or possibly 20 hour contracts with far less rights and entitlements than workers had at any time since the foundation od the state. The INTO, my old TU, carried out a survey on the subject of kids coming to school without breakfast and found that 25% were actually hungry. There is real poverty and starvation in our society and unless the pay and conditions for workers at the lower end of the pay scale improves, things are going tare not going to improve.
To finish where I began, what Alan Kelly had to say was downright disingenuous at best and disgraceful at worst.

So are you saying english-speaking immigrants won't get decent jobs?

I fully agree re zero hour contracts, etc but it's nothing to do with the refugee crisis

[Lar Naparka]

Lar, I have no idea what you mean, unless you are talking about Refugees only. A lot of refugees come in via direct provision and are not allowed work. These refugees, apparently, will be allowed work.

I work with Ukranians, Russians, Indians, Romanians and others. They all have good jobs.

Okay, Az, as one gentleman to another, I'll attempt to enlighten you.
You know quite  few from other countries who have good jobs here and so do I. Obviously, the standard of education in some of the countries in question iis at least as good, if not better, than we have here.There's one hell of a difference although between someone coming here with a job waiting or with definite leads to where he might find one. It happens all the time.
But did any of the immigrants you mention come here without an arse to their trousers or a shirt to their back? Did some or all of them have a working command of English and were aware of the rights of workers in our society?
I know an individual who worked for one of the 3 big supermarket chains.  He was a store manager and quite happy with his pay and conditions when he received a very attractive retirement package.
This was in 2010 when the the economy had started to unravel and he was only in his late 40s and happy with his job. Anyway, he took the money and got out.
But he thought it odd that others with any decent period of service clocked up got similar offers.
He felt opt was some sort of shift in  company policy that led to the retirement offers but it didn't concern him unduly
He quickly found out that his surmise was correct but he didn't expect what that change was going to be..
He stays in contact with the management as he gets asked in from time to time to cover for someone who is absent ot to help out at busy periods and the likes.
New employees can be let go at a week's notice. They get the bare minimum wage but are forced to work extra hours without pay so effectively they get less than the minimum wage. They get 20 hours guaranteed work but the management decides where and when they work these hours. Someone could turn up for work and then be let go home after, say, two hours even though they had been told to be on call for eight.
I'm no expert on labour laws but it seems that if anyone working a twenty hours minimum week can get a social welfare top up if they work for only three days. However, if their employed hours extend into the fourth or fifth day, they won't get this top up at all.
I think it's fair to say that this company's policies are the norm elsewhere.
Now if the worker in question comes here as a refugee of any sort or happens to be a fellow-citizen down on his/her luck makes no difference to me. They are all human beings and deserve at the very least the basic human rights the rest of us can take for granted.

You seem to have gone way off on a tangent Lar!!! I fail to see how labour laws in Ireland are related to the current refugee crisis.

On your point about immigrants who cannot speak English only getting low paid jobs here - of course, they're not going to be hired as a doctor / engineer / accountant ffs, who's going to want to deal with someone who can't speak English, it's simply not practical? Once they learn to speak English, I have no doubt they would be considered for a job on their merits the same as any Irish person

No, I think I'm very much on target. I'm not at all referring to immigrants getting low-paid jobs because they don't speak English. How about the native Irish who can't get jobs because there a shortage of jobs and a surplus of labour- all to the benefit of unscrupulous employers.
What about people on zero hour contracts or the likes of those supermarket workers I mentioned in my last post?
You're damn right the refugees/immigrants or whatever you call them will be treated the same  as the Irish. Like dirt.
My point about immigrants who can't get decent jobs here wasn't just about their inability to speak English- far from it. I don't see very many from English speaking countries coming here in search of work anyway.
Alan Kelly, not me, brought up the subject of incoming refugees with qualifications making a positive contribution to our economy.
There are people all around you working to zero or possibly 20 hour contracts with far less rights and entitlements than workers had at any time since the foundation od the state. The INTO, my old TU, carried out a survey on the subject of kids coming to school without breakfast and found that 25% were actually hungry. There is real poverty and starvation in our society and unless the pay and conditions for workers at the lower end of the pay scale improves, things are going tare not going to improve.
To finish where I began, what Alan Kelly had to say was downright disingenuous at best and disgraceful at worst.

So are you saying english-speaking immigrants won't get decent jobs?

I fully agree re zero hour contracts, etc but it's nothing to do with the refugee crisis

Where did I say that??
I referred to non-English speaking immigrants getting menial jobs okay but I did say: I don't see very many from English speaking countries coming here in search of work anyway

Sure, the present crisis is something we haven't experienced before and the low pay and lousy working conditions were there long  before the the mass influx began.
I am saying that there is real poverty and starvation out there because the labour market is unregulated and that's to the advantage of employers.

[Soup an Samajiz]

http://www.joe.ie/news/video-syrian-refugees-kicked-by-camerawoman-treated-like-vips-by-real-madrid/512354

[give her dixie]

Throughout the carpet bombing of the Middle East for over 10 years now, Ireland has allowed the USA to use
Shannon airport as a stopping ground for soldiers, arms, and rendition flights to bring people to torture chambers.

I questioned a FF TD and a FF Senator as to why they allowed this to happen. Both told me it was good for the economy.

So if Ireland was willing to take the quick buck and turn a blind eye to their role in the bloodshed in the Middle East, then
they need to step forward and use that money to help the thousands of refugees that we are to take.

Our history, both recent and longer is littered with stories of mass immigration. We were world leaders at it. I was one of them.
Everywhere I went I get treated with dignity and respect, and no shortage of generosity. The tables have now turned on Ireland
and other EU countries, and we owe it to those now migrating here fleeing conflict a warm hand and a bit of understanding.
Not only do we owe it to ourselves, our ancestors, but to humanity.

When we look back at the images we are now seeing in 10 or 20 years time, what will we say to our children?

Dixie I applaud your personal efforts, but lets keep things straight. Where in the Middle East has the US been carpet bombing for the last 10 years?

Iraq is one

[muppet]

Throughout the carpet bombing of the Middle East for over 10 years now, Ireland has allowed the USA to use
Shannon airport as a stopping ground for soldiers, arms, and rendition flights to bring people to torture chambers.

I questioned a FF TD and a FF Senator as to why they allowed this to happen. Both told me it was good for the economy.

So if Ireland was willing to take the quick buck and turn a blind eye to their role in the bloodshed in the Middle East, then
they need to step forward and use that money to help the thousands of refugees that we are to take.

Our history, both recent and longer is littered with stories of mass immigration. We were world leaders at it. I was one of them.
Everywhere I went I get treated with dignity and respect, and no shortage of generosity. The tables have now turned on Ireland
and other EU countries, and we owe it to those now migrating here fleeing conflict a warm hand and a bit of understanding.
Not only do we owe it to ourselves, our ancestors, but to humanity.

When we look back at the images we are now seeing in 10 or 20 years time, what will we say to our children?

Dixie I applaud your personal efforts, but lets keep things straight. Where in the Middle East has the US been carpet bombing for the last 10 years?

Iraq is one

The US pulled out of Iraq in 2011. If they have any activity there now it is attacking ISIS. I would have no problem with that personally, but each to their own.

Shannon Airport is in international airport in a neutral country. It should be available to all. During the Cold War you had Russian and US aircraft side by side, as it should be in a neutral state imho.

[Wildweasel74]

When did Russia use Shannon again?

[armaghniac]

When did Russia use Shannon again?

Did Russian military ever us Shannon? It was an important base for Aeroflot at one time.

[muppet]

When did Russia use Shannon again?

Did Russian military ever us Shannon? It was an important base for Aeroflot at one time.

Correct.

Both Ukraine and Russia have had permits granted (same as the US) to fly munitions through Irish airspace in recent years.

I don't have the data but I would be certain the Russian flew military aircraft through our airspace, at the very least,en route to Cuba. They would have required the same permits then as now.

[armaghniac]

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink.

[Tony Baloney]

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink sleep.

[armaghniac]

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink sleep.

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink drunken sleep.

[Tony Baloney]

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink sleep.

And of course Boris stopped there for a drink drunken sleep.

His finest hour.

https://youtu.be/cRysHHzLAmM

[foxcommander]

Women and children first...oh wait...



Good to hear that they're starting to think about jailing economic migrants breaking the law. They aren't refugees.